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charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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Gialmere
April 11th, 2018 at 6:34:12 PM permalink
I've just found out about a game of winning tricks at Whist that's been in several Grosvenor casinos.

Players "Ante", receive three cards and the trump suit is revealed. Players look at their hands and can "Play" or "Fold". Then, one by one, the Dealer reveals his three cards; the aim is for the Player to win tricks. You have to follow suit or trump if you can. Players need to win 2 or 3 tricks to be paid out.

Quote: http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/3cardwhist.html

Three Card Whist is a casino table game played with one standard pack of playing cards without jokers.

The Player competes against the Dealer and not against other Players. One to six Players can play each round.

Each Player and the Dealer are dealt three cards per round. An additional card is dealt face up and its suit becomes the trump suit. Any card that is the same suit as the trump suit is a trump card

The cards are ordered by rank, with Deuce low and Ace high. A card of the same suit as another card but of higher rank, beats that card.

A trump card always beats a card that is not of the same suit as the trump suit.

The Dealer reveals his three cards sequentially.

If the Player plays a card that beats the current Dealer card, the Player wins a trick. The Player tries to win as many tricks as possible against the three Dealer cards.

charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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April 13th, 2018 at 6:37:53 AM permalink
I'm looking into a possible strategy for this and get that you should fold just under 41% of hands.

Approximately (there are a few close exceptions)
(i) 3 or 2 trumps - play
(ii) 1 trump - usually play but fold if your other two cards are very small
(as a rough rule fold with non-trump 6x or worse, your actual trump card doesn't seem to matter much).
(iii) 0 trumps
  • 3 cards in same suit - fold
  • Two different suits
    - fold if your two card suit is 10-high or lower.
    - fold if your one card suit is 7 or lower.
    - play J2+ with A, J5+ with K, Q4+ with Q, Q8+ with J, K7+ with 10, A7+ with 9, AT+ with 8.
    - exception fold Q3-2 Q, K3-2 J, A3-2 T.
  • Three different suits - you need 21 outs (i.e. there are 21 cards left in the pack lower than your cards, so you play 999 but fold 998; except play QJ3, KJ2 and fold A76).

I got the stated House Edge but there are a few quirks about discarding.

First Round
In the first round, where you can't trump or follow suit, you normally discard your lowest card. The only case you don't is with two cards in one suit (and one in another) when it is sometimes better to discard one of these than the odd card. The logic is that you have more chances of winning the second trick by holding two different suits which can overcome the disadvantage of possibly having a lower card left for the third trick. e.g. AhKh8d discard the Kh.

Second Round
There's also a small chance of discarding the wrong card on the second round. Consider a hand such as Ah (low)h Kd, where you won the first trick with (low)h, but now have to discard on dealer's As. Kd now has a better chance to win than Ah (11 to 10 outs), so you discard Ah. In essence this only happens where the diamond is only one rank lower than the higher heart, so this is fairly rare and has a very minor effect on the House Edge.
Edited this after considering the discard quirks.
Last edited by: charliepatrick on Apr 13, 2018
Deucekies
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April 13th, 2018 at 9:23:17 PM permalink
Only in England could they turn freakin' Whist into a table game. What's next? King's Corner?
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Wizard
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charliepatrick
April 14th, 2018 at 3:25:05 AM permalink
I'm surprised a whist variant got off the ground. I don't think I'm going to fuss with this unless it gets to a dozen placements or so. Are you interested in doing a full analysis? I'd be happy to write it up, giving you full credit. We could even pay you a little bit, but that shouldn't be your primary motive.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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July 8th, 2018 at 3:26:02 PM permalink
At last I managed to play the game for real this weekend and apparently it is in at least two casinos. Most people were playing the minimum but some were also playing the sidebets (which are similar ideas to those in 3-card poker). I sensed many had little idea of a proper strategy and were playing too many hands. I even saw one person play A 2 3, but at least they won the straight bet!

The game itself ran fairly slowly as each game consists of three tricks. For my part, playing £2, I worked through £20 before a win. On average you lose about 70% of hands (so £2 or £4) but stand to win £6 or £8 for winning three tricks. So a few wins can bring you back into the game.

I've come up with a simple strategy but it still requires knowledge of poker "outs".
(i) 3 Trumps : Play
(ii) 2 Trumps : Play
(iii) 1 Trump : Play with any non-trump 7 or higher.
(iv) 0 Trumps, 3 different suits : Play with 21+ outs (e.g. 999 as each card has seven outs: 8765432)
(v) 0 Trumps, 2 different suits : Ignoring the lower card in the doubleton, only play AT+ KJ+ QQ.
(vi) 0 trumps, flush (i.e. all in one non-trump suit) : Fold
The cost in House Edge for playing this way is about 0.36%
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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July 9th, 2018 at 7:00:08 AM permalink
In what order are the dealer's cards played? Random?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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July 9th, 2018 at 8:27:00 AM permalink
So the entire HE depends on 1 thing:

You must decide to play or fold (forfeit) before knowing any dealer cards.

Is that correct?

And dealer randomly turns cards, or looks at the hand and plays a strategy?

I think I would like this game very much, but would want to play it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
DogHand
DogHand
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July 9th, 2018 at 8:39:35 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

<snip>Second Round
There's also a small chance of discarding the wrong card on the second round. Consider a hand such as Ah (low)h Kd, where you won the first trick with (low)h, but now have to discard on dealer's As. Kd now has a better chance to win than Ah (11 to 10 outs), so you discard Ah. In essence this only happens where the diamond is only one rank lower than the higher heart, so this is fairly rare and has a very minor effect on the House Edge.
Edited this after considering the discard quirks.



charliepatrick,

This is true for heads-up play, but if the table has other players, then their discards would influence your decision: if on the first trick other players discarded diamonds, the Kd would be less valuable than the Ah on the third trick.

For that matter, your seat position would also be important if you get to see other players' discards on a given trick before you play your own.

Since you've played this game, perhaps you would answer three questions. First, how many players can play simultaneously? Second, on a given trick do all the players reveal their chosen cards simultaneously, or sequentially? Third, what is the penalty for reneging: a one-way trip to the Tower of London? ;-)

Dog Hand
Ayecarumba
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July 9th, 2018 at 11:21:49 AM permalink
Quote: DogHand

...Since you've played this game, perhaps you would answer three questions. First, how many players can play simultaneously?



Per the initial post of the rules: 6

Quote: DogHand

Second, on a given trick do all the players reveal their chosen cards simultaneously, or sequentially?



I wonder about this too, but I suspect the procedure is:
The dealer turns their card.
Players place a card face down into a "play" area, and cannot change it once set.
The dealer then reveals each player's card, collects losers, and pays winners.
The procedure is repeated for each round.

I wonder what the house way chart looks like.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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July 9th, 2018 at 2:52:17 PM permalink
Firstly I did enjoy the game and it seemed others did as well.

The dealer's cards are dealt face down and turned over one at a time. Players make their decisions to each trick by playing their cards face up - there's a nice method on the box with the words "WIN" nearer the dealer and "LOSE" nearer the player and you move your card to the top or bottom of the box to show whether you won or lost.

On the first trick technically there might be some help if you can see other people's cards, but bear in mind they can only discard if they haven't got a trump nor the suit led. Strangely, assuming it isn't a trump, that meant you both started with two suits (doubleton and singleton) and your correct decision is still to throw your lower card of the doubleton. The other occasion is if the dealer starts with a trump and you have three suits, then it might be worth looking at other people's cards.

On the second trick I can see you might have more information from others player's cards.

There is a penalty for revoking (although I'm not sure what the official rules are). The only time I saw it was when the dealer's first two cards were Clubs (Q then 5); another player put a Spade out for the first trick and then the 8 clubs for the second. He wasn't allowed to rectify his mistake and had to play the 8 on the Q (as "the card had already been played") and the King Of Clubs on the 5. He lost the last trick so would have won if he'd played correctly.

There is no House Way, the Dealer's cards are turned up one at a time.

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