beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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April 10th, 2018 at 6:16:56 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

After re-reading the posts, and thanks for the input everyone, I think I've mostly got it, except I still have a few questions.

Correct-me-if-I'm-wrong conclusions: To deal with the perceived need to be 'a team at the table' when someone banks, many Asians have developed some cooperative methods. There is an "even money" cooperative method which involves the player-banker returning any winnings taken from another player. This is likely to be seen at Pai Gow Poker. Co-banking, which seems simply to be a matter of adding to the banking players bet. Or less simply, players may co-bank and place that bet in front of them and the dealer knows they are co-banking? Note that question mark and the next question mark. Co-banking is seen only in PG Tiles while this "even money" method is seen at PG Poker?

I have some more questions but let's start with these.



Mostly true.

The even money runs both ways, not just from player-banker to other player.

The person being repaid pays the commission back to the other, as a courtesy for returning the bet.

I have never seen co-banking allowed at PGP. Virtually every time I've played tiles, it was offered. No one bet their own hand - they either co-banked or sat out. However, while my PGP table time is extensive, I've only played tiles a few times. So, in my experience, these are two completely separate activities.

Even money is definitely not limited to Asians. Could well be, they started it. IDK. But most if not all experienced players do it if the casino allows.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
odiousgambit
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April 10th, 2018 at 6:28:38 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Mostly true.

The even money runs both ways, not just from player-banker to other player.

The person being repaid pays the commission back to the other, as a courtesy for returning the bet.

I have never seen co-banking allowed at PGP. Virtually every time I've played tiles, it was offered. No one bet their own hand - they either co-banked or sat out. However, while my PGP table time is extensive, I've only played tiles a few times. So, in my experience, these are two completely separate activities.

Even money is definitely not limited to Asians. Could well be, they started it. IDK. But most if not all experienced players do it if the casino allows.



Thanks.

I'm still not sure what goes on with co-banking. Do players put the money in front of them and tell the dealer they are co-banking*, or is it a matter of putting the money literally in the same circle as the banker and trusting him to not, well, hornswaggle you?

*this, seems to me, would mean the casino allows a work-around for the prohibition against betting more than you bet when the house was the banker
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
SOOPOO
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April 10th, 2018 at 7:53:40 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Thanks.

I'm still not sure what goes on with co-banking. Do players put the money in front of them and tell the dealer they are co-banking*, or is it a matter of putting the money literally in the same circle as the banker and trusting him to not, well, hornswaggle you?

*this, seems to me, would mean the casino allows a work-around for the prohibition against betting more than you bet when the house was the banker



In tiles, the dealer looks at each player and the player says, or points to chips, that signify how much you want to bet with the banker. If the banker is betting 4 black chips, then I signal a green chip, then the next guy 2 black chips, the dealer will make a stack of 4 black, then my green, then the next guys 2 black in one pile. I have never seen a single instance of someone trying to take a shot by denying they made the bet.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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April 10th, 2018 at 8:03:55 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

In tiles, the dealer looks at each player and the player says, or points to chips, that signify how much you want to bet with the banker. If the banker is betting 4 black chips, then I signal a green chip, then the next guy 2 black chips, the dealer will make a stack of 4 black, then my green, then the next guys 2 black in one pile. I have never seen a single instance of someone trying to take a shot by denying they made the bet.

Thanks. How about this being a 'wink and a nod' regarding a work-around the rule that is supposed to limit the player-banker betting to last amount bet? Never mind, it occurs to me that only the player-banker gets the benefit of ties going to the banker.
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Apr 10, 2018
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FleaStiff
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April 10th, 2018 at 11:50:01 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I have never seen a single instance of someone trying to take a shot by denying they made the bet.

That is reassuring. Yet again, it is support for the notion that this is something that should be on the WOO/WOV pages in a plain and explicit manner just so neophytes will neither make a fool of themselves nor feel embarrassed or puzzled.
gamerfreak
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April 10th, 2018 at 12:01:00 PM permalink
Banking on a full table of PGP is the only situation I can think of, other than FPDW, where the player has a slight mathematical advantage (playing the game straight up that is).

Is the same true of tiles?
TigerWu
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April 10th, 2018 at 12:28:00 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Banking on a full table of PGP is the only situation I can think of, other than FPDW, where the player has a slight mathematical advantage (playing the game straight up that is).

Is the same true of tiles?



According to the Wizard's page on tiles, using an absolute optimal strategy nets you a 0.2% advantage, but that strategy is insanely complicated.

More traditional (and easier) strategies still give the house an edge.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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April 10th, 2018 at 12:56:02 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Banking on a full table of PGP is the only situation I can think of, other than FPDW, where the player has a slight mathematical advantage (playing the game straight up that is).

Is the same true of tiles?



It "would" be true, but in real life it just doesn't happen. The players bet with you, not against you.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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April 10th, 2018 at 1:24:55 PM permalink
I answered my own question, I think, just above [crossed out]

The below also has me unsure of what is meant

Quote: sodawater

It is a disadvantage for you, the player-banker, to agree to "no action" with another player who wishes to bet during your bank, because you have an advantage on each dollar bet against your bank. You have a further advantage the more player hands are dealt against you, due to the net commission rule.

I don't see this 'net commission advantage' discussed by the Wizard

Quote:

Net commission means that if you win $100 against the dealer but lose $100 to player A while banking, you owe nothing. However in normal pai gow if you win one $100 bet and lose the next you have lost $5 to commission.

Interesting. Wizard seems to only mention the advantage about ties going to banker.

Quote:

As a player, it is to your advantage to call "no action" against a player-banker, but an easier way to get this edge is just to sit out the hand. Mainly players ask for no action against the player-banker so they may continue betting the bonus bet, which carries a large house edge.

Well, I get that it is -EV, but it is the same as playing against the dealer, no?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FCBLComish
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April 10th, 2018 at 4:10:43 PM permalink
I have seen this in California. Players do not want to miss out on a Fortune bet, so they agree to have "no action" vs the Player/Banker.

When you are factoring in a No Commission game, it increases the frequency of this happening.

I saw this with not only Asian players, but all of the locals seemed to have his general agreement.
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