3 Card Draw Poker
Poll
 | 6 votes (40%) | ||
| | 2 votes (13.33%) | ||
| | 6 votes (40%) | ||
| | 2 votes (13.33%) | ||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| No votes (0%) | |||
| | 1 vote (6.66%) | ||
| | 1 vote (6.66%) | ||
| | 3 votes (20%) | ||
| | 1 vote (6.66%) |
15 members have voted
October 31st, 2017 at 3:23:45 PM
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I just heard that the Atlantic City Tropicana is hosting the game 3 Card Draw Poker. Here is a video on how to play:
Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfxCdhALKDM
I can't justify analyzing this game over just one placement but will keep an eye out for it should it grow. Seems to me that poker variants with a draw option have not done well in general. Then again, almost every new game idea does not get far. Anyone know of other placements?
The question for the forum is would you play 3 Card Draw Poker?
Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfxCdhALKDM
I can't justify analyzing this game over just one placement but will keep an eye out for it should it grow. Seems to me that poker variants with a draw option have not done well in general. Then again, almost every new game idea does not get far. Anyone know of other placements?
The question for the forum is would you play 3 Card Draw Poker?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 31st, 2017 at 3:51:27 PM
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I voted yes, but I don't like to play anything until I see the strategy. I think this is better than standard 3cp.
I heart Crystal Math.
October 31st, 2017 at 6:15:52 PM
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Interesting . This is another poker game in which the dealer has more cards than the player from which to make a poker hand. Similar to Four Card Poker and Discard Inferno.
1. Can anyone read the two payout tables in the video? I could not read a couple of the lines.
2. Are you limited to drawing a maximum of 1 card? Or, could you draw 2 cards to an ace?
1. Can anyone read the two payout tables in the video? I could not read a couple of the lines.
2. Are you limited to drawing a maximum of 1 card? Or, could you draw 2 cards to an ace?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 31st, 2017 at 6:29:05 PM
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Quote: gordonm888Interesting . This is another poker game in which the dealer has more cards than the player from which to make a poker hand. Similar to Four Card Poker and Discard Inferno.
1. Can anyone read the two payout tables in the video? I could not read a couple of the lines.
2. Are you limited to drawing a maximum of 1 card? Or, could you draw 2 cards to an ace?
Their website scoregaming.com has all the payouts, it says you can only draw one card.
Happy days are here again
October 31st, 2017 at 6:51:25 PM
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Thanks. Their website says that the main game, the ante bet, has a HE of 1.04% That is quite attractive.
The bonus bet is stated to have a house edge of 2.21%.
Over and above winning or losing, the Ante Payout Table on the ante bet is:
Straight: 1 to 1
Trips: 3 to 1
Str Flush: 10 to 1
Mini Royal: 20 to 1
The optional First 3 Bonus Wager has this payout table:
Pair: 1 to 1
Flush: 3 to 1
Straight: 6 to 1
Trips: 30 to1
Str Flush: 60 to 1
Mini Royal: 100 to 1
Pretty puny payout on the mini-royal.
The bonus bet is stated to have a house edge of 2.21%.
Over and above winning or losing, the Ante Payout Table on the ante bet is:
Straight: 1 to 1
Trips: 3 to 1
Str Flush: 10 to 1
Mini Royal: 20 to 1
The optional First 3 Bonus Wager has this payout table:
Pair: 1 to 1
Flush: 3 to 1
Straight: 6 to 1
Trips: 30 to1
Str Flush: 60 to 1
Mini Royal: 100 to 1
Pretty puny payout on the mini-royal.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 31st, 2017 at 8:57:40 PM
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That's some complicated payouts the dealer has to remember. I cant' see this doing well.
October 31st, 2017 at 9:56:07 PM
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Would also be time consuming for each hand. The dealer has to wait for each player to make their decision in order and many times the player has to decide whether to go for the straight, flush , high card or Straight Flush(like the first hand dealt in the video).
Then you also have the potential for cheaters working together and showing their cards to one another or even deftly exchanging cards under the guise of discarding or post betting with winning hands.
Seems doomed to be trouble one way or another.
Then you also have the potential for cheaters working together and showing their cards to one another or even deftly exchanging cards under the guise of discarding or post betting with winning hands.
Seems doomed to be trouble one way or another.
November 1st, 2017 at 12:36:38 AM
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Quote: rsactuaryThat's some complicated payouts the dealer has to remember. I cant' see this doing well.
Dealers don't "remember" any of the payouts on these types of games. Rather, they just look at the paytable on the felt and pay it off, oftentimes incorrectly. :)
I think the game is pretty cool. It makes sense, very straightforward, and seems simple enough to play.
With a 1% HE game and a 2% HE side bet, the casino isn't going to be making much money, especially when you consider it's not likely a game for big bettors. Other games either have a low HE (like BJ) but move very fast.....or have a big house edge and move slowly (UTH, MS, etc.)....or like baccarat, which doesn't move particularly fast, has a small house edge, but has huge bets.
I don't know what the strategy is for this game, but IF you usually hold 2 cards to a flush (which I doubt) is the proper play, then I'm not seeing much room for player mistakes drastically increasing the HE (ie: like idiots not shoving with AK in UTH).
This game will move slowly, have small bets, and has a small HE.
November 1st, 2017 at 8:06:02 AM
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Quote: BedWetterBetterWould also be time consuming for each hand. The dealer has to wait for each player to make their decision in order and many times the player has to decide whether to go for the straight, flush , high card or Straight Flush(like the first hand dealt in the video).
I think that is a big reason draw games don't do well. Table game management put a huge emphasis on hands per hour.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 1st, 2017 at 10:25:51 AM
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Just for chuckles, here what I calculate for the distribution of hands that a dealer will make, as dealt from a fresh 52-card deck:
Dealer hand distribution, 52 card deck
Mini-Royal: 0.0635%
Str Flush: 0.789%
Trips: 0.946%
Straight: 10.73%
Flush: 15.28%
Pair: 26.52%
Hi Card: 45.66%
High Card hands are distributed as:
A-High: 14.47%
K-High: 11.15%
Q-High: 7.91%
J-High: 5.35%
Lower: 6.78%
*****************************************
I do think the strategy is complicated and that there will be lots of player errors. For the strategy, you will need to determine what the minimum hand to hit is in each of these categories:
Drawing to 2 unpaired cards:
- No flush draw, no straight draw
- No flush draw, 1-gap straight draw
- No flush draw, open-ended straight draw (do you draw to a 23, holding J32? with K32 should you draw to K3 or 32?)
- Flush draw, no straight draw
- Flush draw or 1-gap straight draw (example: QsTh2s or AsQh5s
That doesn't cover it all. What will customers do with these hands? What would you do?
As2s2h? Draw to 2s2h or As2s?
As4s4h? Draw to 4s4h or As4s?
As8h7d? Draw to As8h? or 8h7d?
Dealer hand distribution, 52 card deck
Mini-Royal: 0.0635%
Str Flush: 0.789%
Trips: 0.946%
Straight: 10.73%
Flush: 15.28%
Pair: 26.52%
Hi Card: 45.66%
High Card hands are distributed as:
A-High: 14.47%
K-High: 11.15%
Q-High: 7.91%
J-High: 5.35%
Lower: 6.78%
*****************************************
I do think the strategy is complicated and that there will be lots of player errors. For the strategy, you will need to determine what the minimum hand to hit is in each of these categories:
Drawing to 2 unpaired cards:
- No flush draw, no straight draw
- No flush draw, 1-gap straight draw
- No flush draw, open-ended straight draw (do you draw to a 23, holding J32? with K32 should you draw to K3 or 32?)
- Flush draw, no straight draw
- Flush draw or 1-gap straight draw (example: QsTh2s or AsQh5s
That doesn't cover it all. What will customers do with these hands? What would you do?
As2s2h? Draw to 2s2h or As2s?
As4s4h? Draw to 4s4h or As4s?
As8h7d? Draw to As8h? or 8h7d?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 1st, 2017 at 10:45:00 AM
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I believe this game came in 3rd at last year's TG Conference. I liked the game when I saw it there.
In viewing the video, I believe there is an issue with the dealing procedures. The process of using a shuffler to deal three card packets, then dumping the stub deck, adding the top card off the stub deck to the dealer's hand as the fourth card and finally picking up the stub deck in hand to deal the draw cards to players is too cumbersome. Score should come up with better mechanics for live play.
That being said, I think it is Score's best game to date.
In viewing the video, I believe there is an issue with the dealing procedures. The process of using a shuffler to deal three card packets, then dumping the stub deck, adding the top card off the stub deck to the dealer's hand as the fourth card and finally picking up the stub deck in hand to deal the draw cards to players is too cumbersome. Score should come up with better mechanics for live play.
That being said, I think it is Score's best game to date.
November 1st, 2017 at 10:56:40 AM
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Quote: ParadigmI believe this game came in 3rd at last year's TG Conference. I liked the game when I saw it there.
In viewing the video, I believe there is an issue with the dealing procedures. The process of using a shuffler to deal three card packets, then dumping the stub deck, adding the top card off the stub deck to the dealer's hand as the fourth card and finally picking up the stub deck in hand to deal the draw cards to players is too cumbersome. Score should come up with better mechanics for live play.
That being said, I think it is Score's best game to date.
With the newer model shufflers,they can just program it to deal 4 cards first for the dealer and then 3 cards for the players hands.
Happy days are here again
November 1st, 2017 at 11:06:11 AM
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That helps with the initial deal, but then the dealer still needs to pick up the dumped stub deck and hand deal the draw cards to players that request them. In the words of a legend..."this is not an elegant solution".
November 1st, 2017 at 11:30:46 AM
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My easy solution is to have 1 universal card as the players draw card.Quote: ParadigmThat helps with the initial deal, but then the dealer still needs to pick up the dumped stub deck and hand deal the draw cards to players that request them. In the words of a legend..."this is not an elegant solution".
Do you know how hard it is to program using your phone because your laptop is broken? I plan on putting a hand evaluator online, but it's hard to edit files.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
November 1st, 2017 at 12:16:21 PM
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Quote: ParadigmI believe this game came in 3rd at last year's TG Conference.
Yes it did.
.
November 1st, 2017 at 1:43:01 PM
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I already like this game a ton more than 3cp. The draw feature makes it a bit more fun, IMO. The 1.04% HE and ~2% side bet HE makes it 10x more attractive as well, of course.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
November 1st, 2017 at 2:13:48 PM
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Quote: mipletMy easy solution is to have 1 universal card as the players draw card.
The issue with this is that the players will effectively always be rooting against each other, as they will all be after different cards most of the time. I think that is fine for a side wager, like what happens with the community card/s for the 6 card bonus on all of SHFL's games, but don't think that would fly well for base game....
Just my thoughts...
.
November 1st, 2017 at 2:17:34 PM
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Quote: gordonm888Thanks. Their website says that the main game, the ante bet, has a HE of 1.04% That is quite attractive.
The bonus bet is stated to have a house edge of 2.21%.
Can you please provide a link to this information. I can't find it on their site.
I heart Crystal Math.
November 1st, 2017 at 2:39:03 PM
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Quote: gordonm888
Over and above winning or losing, the Ante Payout Table on the ante bet is:
Straight: 1 to 1
Trips: 3 to 1
Str Flush: 10 to 1
Mini Royal: 20 to 1
I think Trips should be 5 to 1, which matches the rack card I found.
I heart Crystal Math.
November 1st, 2017 at 2:58:40 PM
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Pass.
November 1st, 2017 at 3:02:38 PM
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I did a full combinatorial analysis of the game, with trips paying 5 to 1 bonus pay, and I believe the house edge is about 0.523%, about half of what was stated before. This is based on the initial bet only, and the element of risk is 0.271%.
I also watched the video where they said basic strategy would be to fold a J92 off suit. This is wrong. You should hold the J9.
I also watched the video where they said basic strategy would be to fold a J92 off suit. This is wrong. You should hold the J9.
I heart Crystal Math.
November 1st, 2017 at 4:34:07 PM
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Thanks for posting the thread Wizard. I like Three Card Poker, but this one sounds really intriguing. I'll be even more interested if/when you post a strategy guide. I'm hoping to get to AC later this month. Trop isn't my favorite casino, but I'll still walk down to check this out. I actually walked down last time I was there hoping it would be up and running but it was still a day or two away. I'll report back once I give it a shot.
November 1st, 2017 at 5:39:39 PM
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Link to source of HE:
http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/drawpoker.html
And you are correct, Trips should be at 5:1.
http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/drawpoker.html
And you are correct, Trips should be at 5:1.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 2nd, 2017 at 5:20:48 AM
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Quote: gordonm888Link to source of HE:
http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/drawpoker.html
And you are correct, Trips should be at 5:1.
Thanks for that link.
Below is a comparison of the Tropicana Atlantic City pay table (observed by me yesterday) with that of Grosvenor Casino (from the above link.)
| FIRST 3 BONUS | Trop. AC | Grosvenor |
|---|---|---|
| Pair | 1 | 1 |
| Flush | 3 | 3 |
| Straight | 6 | 6 |
| Trips | 30 | 30 |
| Straight Flush | 40 | 60 |
| Mini Royal | 60 | 100 |
| House Edge | 6.91% | 2.21% |
| IN TO WIN BONUS/DRAW | Trop. AC | Grosvenor |
|---|---|---|
| Straight | 1 | 1 |
| Three of a Kind | 5 | 5 |
| Straight Flush | 6 | 10 |
| Mini Royal | 20 | 20 |
November 2nd, 2017 at 6:22:22 AM
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Quote: ChesterDog
IN TO WIN BONUS/DRAW Trop. AC Grosvenor Straight 1 1 Three of a Kind 5 5 Straight Flush 6 10 Mini Royal 20 20
Did you calculate a HA for the main game for each?
.
November 2nd, 2017 at 7:07:27 AM
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Quote: mrsuit31...Did you calculate a HA for the main game for each?
No--I didn't attempt to calculate the HA of the main game for either pay table. But the link provided by gordonm888 gives the HA of the game trialed at the Grosvenor Casino as 1.04%.
(However, the HA of the First 3 Bonus is easy to calculate using these numbers of combinations for each hand: Mini Royal 4, Straight Flush 44, Trips 52, Straight 720, Flush 1096, Pair 3744, and Nothing 16440.)
November 2nd, 2017 at 7:50:18 AM
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Quote: ChesterDogNo--I didn't attempt to calculate the HA of the main game for either pay table. But the link provided by gordonm888 gives the HA of the game trialed at the Grosvenor Casino as 1.04%.
(However, the HA of the First 3 Bonus is easy to calculate using these numbers of combinations for each hand: Mini Royal 4, Straight Flush 44, Trips 52, Straight 720, Flush 1096, Pair 3744, and Nothing 16440.)
I forgot the HA was already established for the UK pay table....
Thanks Chester.
.
November 3rd, 2017 at 7:29:08 AM
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Quote: ChesterDogThanks for that link.
Below is a comparison of the Tropicana Atlantic City pay table (observed by me yesterday) with that of Grosvenor Casino (from the above link.)
FIRST 3 BONUS Trop. AC Grosvenor Pair 1 1 Flush 3 3 Straight 6 6 Trips 30 30 Straight Flush 40 60 Mini Royal 60 100 House Edge 6.91% 2.21%
IN TO WIN BONUS/DRAW Trop. AC Grosvenor Straight 1 1 Three of a Kind 5 5 Straight Flush 6 10 Mini Royal 20 20
Thank you for these details. In other words, we shouldn't be playing this game at Trop. :(
November 3rd, 2017 at 10:48:52 AM
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Strategy -I
Here's some basic strategy for when you don't have a pair or higher and don't have a flush draw. In other words , you have 3 unpaired unsuited cards.
For these hands, I categorize them by the two cards that you are drawing to:
You should Bet an unsuited unpaired hand when you can draw to one of these 2-card combinations:
A-x
K-x
Q-J, Q-T
J-T, J-9
T-9, T-8
98. 87, 76, 65, 54, 43, 32
Fold any hand in which you cannot draw to one of the above.
There are a few unsuited, unpaired 3-card hands for which there are multiple options, I've looked at these three:
A43: You could draw to 43 or A4 or A3. It is best to draw to A3, and 2nd best to draw to A4. An Ace assures that, at the very worst, you will have at least an A-high after drawing, which is a hand with an EV of -0.30 or better. With an unpaired, unsuited hand, never discard an Ace!
K32: Drawing to this K3 is about -0.86; discarding the K and hitting to the 32 is about -0.92. This is a poker game, after all, and in poker high cards matter.
QT9: Discarding the Q and drawing to the T9 yields an EV about -0.55, drawing to the QT is about - 0.65.
*********************************************
Unpaired hands with 2 suited cards are actually more common than unpaired "rainbow" hands. I'll post my strategy analysis for unpaired hands with 2 suited cards soon.
Here's some basic strategy for when you don't have a pair or higher and don't have a flush draw. In other words , you have 3 unpaired unsuited cards.
For these hands, I categorize them by the two cards that you are drawing to:
You should Bet an unsuited unpaired hand when you can draw to one of these 2-card combinations:
A-x
K-x
Q-J, Q-T
J-T, J-9
T-9, T-8
98. 87, 76, 65, 54, 43, 32
Fold any hand in which you cannot draw to one of the above.
There are a few unsuited, unpaired 3-card hands for which there are multiple options, I've looked at these three:
A43: You could draw to 43 or A4 or A3. It is best to draw to A3, and 2nd best to draw to A4. An Ace assures that, at the very worst, you will have at least an A-high after drawing, which is a hand with an EV of -0.30 or better. With an unpaired, unsuited hand, never discard an Ace!
K32: Drawing to this K3 is about -0.86; discarding the K and hitting to the 32 is about -0.92. This is a poker game, after all, and in poker high cards matter.
QT9: Discarding the Q and drawing to the T9 yields an EV about -0.55, drawing to the QT is about - 0.65.
*********************************************
Unpaired hands with 2 suited cards are actually more common than unpaired "rainbow" hands. I'll post my strategy analysis for unpaired hands with 2 suited cards soon.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Nov 3, 2017
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 3rd, 2017 at 12:21:45 PM
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Strategy II
My strategy post, above, left unclear what to do when you have three unsuited cards headed by a K and for which the two lower cards are of adjacent ranks (connected), i.e, the two lower cards offer the possibility of an open-ended straight draw. This is the best strategy (for 3 unsuited cards)
For unsuited (unpaired hands), I suggest this general hierarchal rule for selecting which 2 cards to draw to:
A-X,
K-Q, K-J
Q-J, Q-T
open-ended str. draws, JT - 43
K-X, X= T or less
32
J-9, T-8
Note: JT>Q-T but that choice will never occur, QJT is a straight and player should stand
My strategy post, above, left unclear what to do when you have three unsuited cards headed by a K and for which the two lower cards are of adjacent ranks (connected), i.e, the two lower cards offer the possibility of an open-ended straight draw. This is the best strategy (for 3 unsuited cards)
| 3-card hand | cards to draw to |
|---|---|
| KJT | KJ |
| KT9 | T9 |
| K98 | 98 |
| K87 | 87 |
| K76 | 76 |
| K65 | 65 |
| K54 | 54 |
| K43 | 43 |
| K32 | K3 |
For unsuited (unpaired hands), I suggest this general hierarchal rule for selecting which 2 cards to draw to:
A-X,
K-Q, K-J
Q-J, Q-T
open-ended str. draws, JT - 43
K-X, X= T or less
32
J-9, T-8
Note: JT>Q-T but that choice will never occur, QJT is a straight and player should stand
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Nov 3, 2017
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 3rd, 2017 at 5:51:31 PM
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Strategy III
Hands with no pair (or better) with 2 suited cards
This note addresses strategy for 3-Card Draw Poker hands that have no pairs, 3-card flushes or 3 -card straights but that do have a "flush draw," that is, 2 suited cards like: T♠6♦3♦
As a poker player, I am accustomed to thinking that a flush draw has 9 "outs." However, in 3-Card Draw Poker, a flush draw has 11 'outs.' That's a significant difference, it has 3 more outs than an open-ended straight draw (although a straight will win more frequently and has a bonus payoff in 3-Card Draw.) In any case, this leads to this simple basic strategy rule.
"Never fold a hand with 2 suited cards. "
Drawing to the worst suited 2-card combination, 52(suited), still has an EV of about -0.90 (the exact value depends upon what your discarded card was), which is better than the EV of -1.0 associated with folding.
So to summarize, the 'FOLD or BET' decision appears to be straightforward.
FOLD or BET Fold only when your 3-card hand has no pair, no flush draw (2 suited cards), no open-ended straight draw (2 connected cards) and no one-gap straight draw that is T-8 or higher.
The complexity arises when you must choose between two viable 2-card combinations to draw to; when you have to choose which card to discard. For "suited" hands with a flush draw, I think the less-obvious decisions occur when your 3rd unsuited card is
- an Ace (or sometimes a King ) and presents an option of drawing to A-x or K-x, or
- forms a straight draw with your higher suited card.
Given K♥6♠2♠, do you draw to K♥6♠ or 6♠2♠? I dunno.
Given T♦9♣6♣, do you draw to T♦9♣ or 9♣6♣? Jes' dunno.
Hands with no pair (or better) with 2 suited cards
This note addresses strategy for 3-Card Draw Poker hands that have no pairs, 3-card flushes or 3 -card straights but that do have a "flush draw," that is, 2 suited cards like: T♠6♦3♦
As a poker player, I am accustomed to thinking that a flush draw has 9 "outs." However, in 3-Card Draw Poker, a flush draw has 11 'outs.' That's a significant difference, it has 3 more outs than an open-ended straight draw (although a straight will win more frequently and has a bonus payoff in 3-Card Draw.) In any case, this leads to this simple basic strategy rule.
"Never fold a hand with 2 suited cards. "
Drawing to the worst suited 2-card combination, 52(suited), still has an EV of about -0.90 (the exact value depends upon what your discarded card was), which is better than the EV of -1.0 associated with folding.
So to summarize, the 'FOLD or BET' decision appears to be straightforward.
FOLD or BET Fold only when your 3-card hand has no pair, no flush draw (2 suited cards), no open-ended straight draw (2 connected cards) and no one-gap straight draw that is T-8 or higher.
The complexity arises when you must choose between two viable 2-card combinations to draw to; when you have to choose which card to discard. For "suited" hands with a flush draw, I think the less-obvious decisions occur when your 3rd unsuited card is
- an Ace (or sometimes a King ) and presents an option of drawing to A-x or K-x, or
- forms a straight draw with your higher suited card.
Given K♥6♠2♠, do you draw to K♥6♠ or 6♠2♠? I dunno.
Given T♦9♣6♣, do you draw to T♦9♣ or 9♣6♣? Jes' dunno.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 3rd, 2017 at 6:43:05 PM
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Gordon, thanks for taking the time to do this.
Happy days are here again
November 4th, 2017 at 10:07:35 AM
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Quote: mrsuit31...Did you calculate a HA for the main game for each?
I didn't, but I see that we can calculate an approximate Tropicana house advantage from the Grosvenor HA by considering only the straight flushes, since that is the only payout difference between the two casinos. The Trop pays four less than Grosvenor for a straight flush.
The probability of being dealt a straight flush is 4*11/combin(52,3), or 0.001991 (edited.) That means a loss of 0.80% for the player's EV.
The probability of being dealt two-to-a-straight flush that is not a flush, pair, or a straight is 0.04887 for a 0-gap, 0.06516 for a 1-gap, and 0.00489 for QK. Multiplying each of these by the probability of drawing to a SF and the loss of 4 units produces a loss of 1.37% in player's EV.
So, the Trop HA should be about 1.04% + 0.80% + 1.37% = 3.21%, which is not bad compared to their regular 3 Card Poker. But it's bad compared to the Grosvenor game.
| IN TO WIN BONUS/DRAW | Trop. AC | Grosvenor |
|---|---|---|
| Straight | 1 | 1 |
| Three of a Kind | 5 | 5 |
| Straight Flush | 6 | 10 |
| Mini Royal | 20 | 20 |
| House Edge | 3.21% | 1.04% |
Last edited by: ChesterDog on Nov 4, 2017
November 4th, 2017 at 1:57:09 PM
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Quote: ChesterDog
The probability of being dealt a straight flush is 4*11/combin(52,3), or 0.01991. That means a loss of 0.80% for the player's EV.
Typo alert: you meant to type 0.001991.
Also, I have found one instance when a 3-card hand has both a straight flush draw and a pair, and for which it is best to draw to the SF draw rather than the pair: a pair of 2s + a suited A.
Example A♠ 2♠ 2♦
Draw to A♠ 2♠ EV = 0.196 (assumes SF payout is 6)
Draw to 2♠ 2♦ EV = 0.105
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Nov 4, 2017
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 4th, 2017 at 1:59:18 PM
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Ditto.Quote: HunterhillGordon, thanks for taking the time to do this.
And my hand evaluator is now online here. I didn’t see any glaring errors, but you never know.
Edit to add: this is for the better pay table. I’ll add a customizable one later.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
November 4th, 2017 at 6:03:28 PM
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From an operations point of view, this would be a pass from me.
1) Slow game speed
2) Low house edge
3) Opportunity for sharing of information on hands
4) Awkward draw procedures.
1) Slow game speed
2) Low house edge
3) Opportunity for sharing of information on hands
4) Awkward draw procedures.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
November 7th, 2017 at 5:50:00 AM
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I added the customizable pay table. Same link.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
November 7th, 2017 at 2:37:37 PM
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One of the nice things about this game is the dealer always qualifies so good hands will always play. With the drawing option, Players will tend to end up with better hands (of course to compensate the dealer gets better hands as well and doesn't have to worry about things like having KJ9, choose KJ and be annoyed to get the Ten!) One slightl problem is casual players not being able to play blind but having to make a decision. I can see some casinos keeping the standard 3CP side bets.
November 11th, 2017 at 12:05:29 PM
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Quote: gordonm888Strategy III
Hands with no pair (or better) with 2 suited cards
This note addresses strategy for 3-Card Draw Poker hands that have no pairs, 3-card flushes or 3 -card straights but that do have a "flush draw," that is, 2 suited cards like: T♠6♦3♦
As a poker player, I am accustomed to thinking that a flush draw has 9 "outs." However, in 3-Card Draw Poker, a flush draw has 11 'outs.' That's a significant difference, it has 3 more outs than an open-ended straight draw (although a straight will win more frequently and has a bonus payoff in 3-Card Draw.) In any case, this leads to this simple basic strategy rule.
"Never fold a hand with 2 suited cards. "
Drawing to the worst suited 2-card combination, 52(suited), still has an EV of about -0.90 (the exact value depends upon what your discarded card was), which is better than the EV of -1.0 associated with folding.
So to summarize, the 'FOLD or BET' decision appears to be straightforward.
FOLD or BET Fold only when your 3-card hand has no pair, no flush draw (2 suited cards), no open-ended straight draw (2 connected cards) and no one-gap straight draw that is T-8 or higher.
The complexity arises when you must choose between two viable 2-card combinations to draw to; when you have to choose which card to discard. For "suited" hands with a flush draw, I think the less-obvious decisions occur when your 3rd unsuited card is
- an Ace (or sometimes a King ) and presents an option of drawing to A-x or K-x, or
- forms a straight draw with your higher suited card.
Given K♥6♠2♠, do you draw to K♥6♠ or 6♠2♠? I dunno.
Given T♦9♣6♣, do you draw to T♦9♣ or 9♣6♣? Jes' dunno.
I went to the Trop and played this game. Being that it was my first playing the game, I made minimum bets. I bet the Ante and In to win bets. I did not play the 3 card bonus bet.
My first hand I was dealt Kc, 5h, 8h. I'm not a math guy and I thought that if I keep the Kc, 5h, or the Kc 8h, I have 6 cards to make a pair (Kd,h,s and 5d,c,s or 8d,c,s). But then I thought that if I keep 5h, 8h I have 11 chances to catch a heart. I kept the 5h and 8h. I was dealt a 2h and won with a flush.
I played 7 hands. I won 5 hands (+10) Lost 1 (-2) and folded 1 (-1). Overall I walked away with profit of 7 units.
November 11th, 2017 at 3:16:47 PM
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That's a might small HE. I wonder if six people at a table in full collusion can cross the 0% HE threshold.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
November 14th, 2017 at 4:49:14 PM
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I'm proud to announce a full page on 3 Card Draw Poker. The math was done independently by our own CrystalMath and gordonm888. gordonm888 deserves full credit for the strategy. I'm sure quite a bit of effort went into this so I give my high thanks to both men for their contributions to the page. All I had to do was the drudgery of converting it all to the pseudo-HTML we use here in the Emerald City. I am still trying to get the bottom three tables top aligned.
So, please give it a good read. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections. Thank you.
So, please give it a good read. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections. Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 15th, 2017 at 6:52:11 AM
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Very good job everyone! I wonder why there are basic strategy errors in the video? He also plays Q8 when he has Q87. Is the strategy listed for the AC or U.K.? There must be some differences as the there are different combinations listed in the pay tables.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
November 15th, 2017 at 1:33:01 PM
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My strategy was developed for the AC pay table. Let me check on this.
Edit: Good catch! You are correct Miplet -there are several hands for which the optimum play depends upon whether the SF bonus is 6 or 10. I'll work with Wizard off-line to see what he wants to do.
Edit: Good catch! You are correct Miplet -there are several hands for which the optimum play depends upon whether the SF bonus is 6 or 10. I'll work with Wizard off-line to see what he wants to do.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Nov 15, 2017
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 20th, 2017 at 8:17:00 AM
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Quote:I went to the Trop and played this game. Being that it was my first playing the game, I made minimum bets. I bet the Ante and In to win bets. I did not play the 3 card bonus bet.
My first hand I was dealt Kc, 5h, 8h. I'm not a math guy and I thought that if I keep the Kc, 5h, or the Kc 8h, I have 6 cards to make a pair (Kd,h,s and 5d,c,s or 8d,c,s). But then I thought that if I keep 5h, 8h I have 11 chances to catch a heart. I kept the 5h and 8h. I was dealt a 2h and won with a flush.
I played 7 hands. I won 5 hands (+10) Lost 1 (-2) and folded 1 (-1). Overall I walked away with profit of 7 units.
I played again on Sat. night.
The Trop was packed. People were waiting for open spots on almost every table game. However no one was playing 3 Card Draw Poker. Since I had played it before and won, I decided to give it another try.
Despite losing the first four hands, I managed to walk away with a four unit profit.
While I was playing a customer walked up and asked about the rules and how it differed from 3 Card Poker. I quickly explained that you were dealt three cards with the option of playing those cards or you can discard one card and receive another card to make your hand better. He said it sounded 'too complicated' and that he was going to play the regular 3 Card Poker. I continued to play alone at the table until my wife came along and said that was time to leave.
I cashed my chips in at the cashier window and before I left I passed the 3 Card Draw Poker and noticed that there were now 4 players at the table.
What I like about 3 Card Draw Poker is that unlike 3 Card Poker, where you have to either play the cards dealt or fold, you have an opportunity to better your hand. If you are dealt 2 cards of the same suit you have an opportunity to keep the 2 suited cards and draw for a flush. I did it a couple of times and won. If you are dealt 2 consecutive cards, you can try and draw for a straight. If you don't get your Flush or Straight, you might get a High Card which is good enough to beat the dealers hand.
I guess for some regular 3 Card Poker players, the game can be 'too complicated'.
November 20th, 2017 at 9:29:36 AM
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Quote: FatGeezus
I guess for some regular 3 Card Poker players, the game can be 'too complicated'.
That's really what confuses me more than anything, "Who is the target market?"
I mean, you can have a game that is fundamentally a really good game, but there still has to be a market for it. I don't know that you're going to get the UTH or MS players because you don't have the Variance in 3CDP, further, you don't have any mechanism that allows you to bet multiple times your initial bet in the event of a great hand. I guess the fact that the dealer always qualifies is at least helpful, so you're likely to win both Ante + Raise with a monster hand.
The, "In to Win," Bonus also helps, I suppose.
I guess my issue is that I don't see how this attracts anyone from the Big Three, but I guess no game is really expected to. I don't think (even with the Bonus) you get the same juice regularly that MS/UTH players are going to like. Finally, as you point out, it may be somewhat too complicated for your typical 3CP player.
I will say that I can understand the game for larger casinos who may well have multiple 3CP tables going at any one time, but for smaller casinos (particularly outside of Vegas) it seems likely that it would be more of an either/or scenario that may well ultimately lean towards standard 3CP. I obviously can't speak for every mid-size or small casino on Earth, but of the ones I have seen, the eyeball test says that regular 3CP performs pretty well...but it's usually an, "Almost full," table. To me, that means such a casino would have to have players pulled from something else (MS/UTH/PGP/Others-if applicable) to fill both a 3CP and 3CDP table.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 20th, 2017 at 10:31:33 AM
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I would play this way before I'd play the present 3 card poker, which has a single decision point that a baboon can learn. I'd be very interested to see how much 'knowledge' of other player's cards can help in strategy. (You aren't holding your 8-9 if you are aware that other players are holding 6 of the 7's and 10's, as an easy example).
November 20th, 2017 at 10:37:23 AM
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Quote: SOOPOOI would play this way before I'd play the present 3 card poker, which has a single decision point that a baboon can learn. I'd be very interested to see how much 'knowledge' of other player's cards can help in strategy. (You aren't holding your 8-9 if you are aware that other players are holding 6 of the 7's and 10's, as an easy example).
Lower end high card decisions, too, I would think. For example, the decisions with a Jack or Ten if you see another one or two out there amongst the other player hands. It'd be interesting to see a simulation of perfect collusion with computer-perfect play.
By the way, can you please PM me your address? I need to send you a $2 Buffalo Bill.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
