Wizard pai gow basic strategy

I know we're already talking about pai gow in the thread LET'S TALK ABOUT PAI GOW, but I think this deserves a new thread.

As many of you know, I've made pai gow (tiles) a special calling of mine. However, as much time as I have spent analyzing and playing the game, I never put into writing a strategy I was really happy with. I feel my Wizard Way is quite effective, but difficult to memorize. When JB published two strategies, I thought pai gow had been pretty well covered. However, I've been back in a pai gow mood lately and wanted to come up with a strategy put in a way I tend to think of the game. In particular, I wanted to mention specific tiles, like the high 6, as little as possible, and rely more on general rules of thumb.

Although I've only been working on this the last week, a huge amount of work by JB went into a spreadsheet created showing the expected value of every way to play every hand. This proved invaluable to testing different strategies to find something that balanced simplicity and effectiveness.

Anyway, enough introduction. Please have a look at my new Wizard Basic Strategy for pai gow. I think it is pretty short, easily memorized, and with a cost of errors of only 0.29%, which for pai gow ain't bad.

The question for the poll is what do you think of the strategy?

Quote: Wizard

The question for the poll is what do you think of the strategy?

I think Pai Gow is a stupid game because the house edge is too high, and dealer takes stupid commissions, and no REAL strategy to speak of and most importantly no way to beat the house

Quote: Neutrino

I think Pai Gow is a stupid game because the house edge is too high...

If 1.6% is too high, I guess you will be playing only craps and blackjack.

Quote: Neutrino

... and dealer takes stupid commissions...

I’m with ya! The bastards! If they did away with that commission we could bank with a 4.97% edge for us!

Quote: Neutrino

... [there is] no REAL strategy to speak of...

Read the OP again. I think a strategy is mentioned somewhere that seems “real” in that is designed for a particular purpose, ease of use, and backed up by rigorous analysis.

Quote: Neutrino

... most importantly [there is] no way to beat the house

A lot of casino games have that trait.

Well done! Thanks for creating the strategy. I will give it a try.

Looks great - there is a typo where you refer to a song as a gong. Can't have two gongs with different point values.

Question: what rules are used for setting the dealer's hand when calculating the returns? It would be useful information to somebody who wonders how the numbers were calculated.

Thanks for your efforts on this (and everything you do on this site). One of the things I love about pai gow is that it is an ancient game, yet it is still possible to have legitimate disagreements about strategy. I can barely imagine how challenging it would be to develop a simple strategy which correctly addresses most conditions.

That being said, here are a few topics for discussion...

As I mentioned in the other thread, I used to employ your strategy number 3. Until I discovered that it was a major leak in my game (by practicing using your calculator, thank you very much). I have now begun playing hands like 4-8-10-12 as 6/8 instead of 4/Gong. It seemed to me that this was saving me several tenths of a percent in edge, but your analysis indicates it cannot help more than 0.127%, and I trust your math. Still, perhaps a fairly simple exception to this rule could significantly decrease this error?

In contrast, rule 4 seems very complicated to me, given the frequency of occurrence and cost of errors. My (poor) strategy for these conditions is something like: "Do what seems right. If it seems too close to call, it probably doesn't matter much what you do. Kinda like hitting a 16 against a 10 in blackjack." I would certainly like a better strategy than this, but I'm not sure I can understand or remember your rule 4. How about something like: "13 or less, maximize the high. 14 or more, maximize the low." Maybe add: "Never play high-8 in a gong." How much would that really cost?

Finally, I'm still trying to work out your rule 2, bullet 3. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of several circumstances where this is not advantageous (if I'm understanding correctly). I assume this is part of the challenge of drawing a line in the sand, and this rule provides more good than harm. Still, I'm not gonna split 6's.

Thanks again for your efforts. This is an interesting adventure.

Thanks for all the comments thus far.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Question: what rules are used for setting the dealer's hand when calculating the returns? It would be useful information to somebody who wonders how the numbers were calculated.

JB could answer this better but he uses the traditional rules that most casinos follow. When in doubt, I think he favors the Foxwoods house way. All the house ways are pretty similar.

Thanks for this. Pai gow is quickly becoming my favorite game. I'm looking forward to the time when I'm not the one stupidly looking at their tiles while everyone else has theirs set.

I don't quite understand the numbers in the player banking analysis. The table shows a positive return for the basic strategy, which is actually negative because the player is banking? This might need further explanation...

Quote: Canyonero

I don't quite understand the numbers in the player banking analysis. The table shows a positive return for the basic strategy, which is actually negative because the player is banking? This might need further explanation...

Thanks. Good catch. I had the numbers reversed in that table for dealer and player banking. Just fixed it. The player does have a small advantage banking under optimal strategy.

I love tiles. I love the noise, I love the thinking, I love the pace. I wish there were a bonus, but what can I do.

I like the strategy a lot. I know this question might sound crazy because you've already made the strategy so basic. But... do you think there is an area or two to make it even more basic?

The one area I thought was in the pairs section if the total points are the same. I'm guessing the cost of that mistake is super low. How much would putting it in one category versus the other cost the HE.

Then the only other possible area for condensing is the two or three ways to play a 9, gong or wong. That hand comes up more frequently than a pair, but right now the cost of mistakes is super low. Could simplifying it not cost too much.

This isn't meant as a criticism at all. And I'm sure it wouldn't take me too long to memorize it, but it might help someone who is very very new.

Thanks Wizard, I will surely use this on my Vegas trip in June.

Quote: FinsRule

I like the strategy a lot. I know this question might sound crazy because you've already made the strategy so basic. But... do you think there is an area or two to make it even more basic?

The one area I thought was in the pairs section if the total points are the same. I'm guessing the cost of that mistake is super low. How much would putting it in one category versus the other cost the HE.

I was thinking about a super basic pair splitting rule, too, a while ago. Something like, "only split a pair if you can make 9,9 or better." The JB simple strategy is kind of along those lines, but it's broken down by tile.

Why are they called "tiles" when they are really "Chinese Dominoes"?

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Why are they called "tiles" when they are really "Chinese Dominoes"?

They are called gwat pai in Chinese, which translates to "bone tiles."

Also, dominoes in general technically ARE tiles. Other tile based games include Mah Jong, Rummikub, and Scrabble.

Just finished my first real world session of Pai Gow using the Wizard basic strategy at a 15 dollar table at Harrahs (late afternoon).

Once I was familiar with the terminology the basic strategy seemed easy enogh to memorize. I practiced with the WoO game and my very own tileset. Also, I have had the honor of some training by the Wizard himself. Thanks, Mike!

I had a great time, Minh the dealer was very nice and helpful and the pitboss was hanging out at the table chatting as well. I didn't realize before I played just how slow this game is. The washing and setting up of the tiles takes a few minutes each time. Plenty of time to chat about Asian gambling games and Macau. I broke even the first hour, then a new dealer came in and destroyed me by winning 4 in a row...

It is fun banking. And the dealer was surprised when I invoked that privilege. Mike, you don't mention the "deliveries" or the dice in your game description, probably on purpose. It would help newbies to understand wtf is happening on the table though. The dealer was very happy to teach me all about it...

At Harrahs, prepaying the commission is possible if you bet a multiple of 100 a hand, far too rich for me.

Mike, I believe the concept of High9/8 is explained nowhere on the WoO Pai Gow pages. Without the explanation you gave me, I would have misunderstood (4.) of the basic strategy. Other than that, the basic strategy worked very well in real life conditions for me. Great work on this labor of love!

I think it is a sensible strategy that will be easy for a beginner to learn. The biggest problem wasn't learning a strategy for me when I first started playing at casinos. I found JB's simple strategy fairly easy to learn. The hardest part was setting the tiles quickly in the casino. It is easy when you play the trainer on the Wizard's site and it shows you the value of the three different combinations. But, calculating them in your head at the casino is much harder than it looks.

I do have some hints for beginners that might help them in the casino as they look at their tiles.

1. Look for pairs and especially mixed pairs first. The mixed pairs in particular can be easy to miss if you aren't experienced.

2. Second, check for a teen or day tile (H2 or L2) that may lead to a H9, Gong, or Wong.

3. If you have points only (no pairs or teen/day, wong, gong) try balancing the hand first. Low tile goes with high tile and what is in between goes in other hand. That will give you point total for the hand. From there, use the strategy to determine if you need to stick with the balanced hand or play the high hand.

Quote: Canyonero

Mike, I believe the concept of High9/8 is explained nowhere on the WoO Pai Gow pages. Without the explanation you gave me, I would have misunderstood (4.) of the basic strategy. Other than that, the basic strategy worked very well in real life conditions for me. Great work on this labor of love!

I'm glad you enjoyed and to have made another pai gow convert. I appreciate that suggestion. I'll look over that page and try to clarify the terminology better.