Let's talk about pai gow

I'm happy to announce that I finally got around to shooting three videos on pai gow (tiles) last week. The first part was on the rules, the second on strategy, and the third is on miscellaneous questions on pai gow. So look forward to those coming out soon after we edit them.

I also plan to dust off my pai gow program and try to come up with a simple basic strategy for the game once and for all.

The question for the poll is how much do you like pai gow?

Quote: TigerWu

In my opinion, I think you can learn enough in a couple hours to actually sit at a table and play. If you go by the "basic strategy:"

1) Have a pair? Put those two together, and play the two remaining tiles together. Pay close attention to the unmatched pairs, though (5,7,8,9), as well as Gee Joon. That is what trips up most beginners.

2) If you have a 2 or 12, play it with a 7, 8, or 9, and play the remaining two tiles together.

3) If you have two tiles that add up to 9, play them together, and play the remaining two tiles together.

4) If you can't do steps 1-3, play the highest tile and lowest tile together, and play the remaining two tiles together.

5) If you can't do steps 1-4, put your tiles down and ask the dealer to set them in the House Way.

I think steps 1-4 covers like 80% of all Pai Gow hands fairly well, and it's pretty automatic: "if you have these tiles, do this." You can memorize the tile order and get a grasp of the basic strategy above in a few hours. After you do that, the rest is just more memorization and learning exceptions to the basic strategy. Tiles seems like a scary game at first, but I think it's really easy to at least get your foot in the door to start playing. I've taught people how to play in less than an hour before, but that is with reference cards to constantly look at.

My best tip? Next time you're on the Strip, go to Harrah's early in the morning on a weekday when you can have the table all to yourself. They would love to teach you how to play. Seriously.

The above was quoted from the "Ask the Wizard" thread, with permission. This post has in large part got me thinking of doing a basic strategy for the game. Here are some thoughts about your suggestions:

1. I'm thinking of counting a gong as 10 points, a wong as 11, and any pair as 12. Then, if splitting the pair raises the combined total of points, then split. Something along those lines. In other words, a general rule for splitting any pair.

2. Yes, but sometimes there is a teen or day with more than one of 7, 8, and 9. My general rule would be along the lines to play the lowest high hand, except if you can't get the low hand to at least 3, then maximize the high.

3, 4. I don't like that one. My general rule of thumb is that if you can get the low to at least 5, then balance. If that doesn't work, and you can't get the high to at least a high 6, then go back to balancing.

5. Yes, the dealer is always there as a safety net, but I'd like to cover every possible situation.

I'm glad to see you are making some videos and updating your strategy/article. I have been intrigued by the game for quite some time.

I created a "EZ Pai Gow Tiles" variant that allows the game to be learned in 5 minutes by a new player while hardly changing anything about the core game. I'm doubtful that I will ever do anything with the idea for a few reasons. Mostly, I am not confident that a tiles variant would be very marketable given the game's small player base, although it does seem quite popular at certain casino's here on the East Coast. I'd also be concerned that any change to the game, even as miniscule as this is, would not be well received by superstitious asian players.

Has there been any successful Pai Gow Tile sidebets?

I used to have a cheat sheet to remind me of the miss matched pairs. Having lost that a couple years ago, I don't play anymore. I don't love it enough to bother making a new one.

Except when in town for a Wizard to meet up and we play together. THEN it's a lot of fun.

I am looking forward to the videos. The game is intimidating because it doesn't appear that any of the dealers I have seen can clearly explain it in English.

Harrah's has that basic strategy printed on the cards they have at their Tile table. It's a pretty handy card if you play there.

Another "rule of thumb" I heard from an old Chinese gentleman is if you still have no idea what to do, "push everything to the front, or push everything to the back." Basically, ignore balance and make either hand as strong as possible in hopes of a push. No idea how the math checks out on this; it's more or less an "emergency" strategy if you just get a brain cramp or something.

Quote:

2. Yes, but sometimes there is a teen or day with more than one of 7, 8, and 9.

In this case, Harrah's recommends playing the lowest of the 7,8, or 9 first with the 2 or 12. That is, if you have 12 and 7, 9, x, play the 12 with the 7 and the 9 with x. Again, this is purely a basic, basic strategy and is not mathematically sound in all cases. Simply something to give you a decent hand and keep the game going.

Here's a cut and paste from another post of mine about banking, as well as some added information:

When I'm playing alone I bank as often as possible, which of course is every other hand. I also make sure to take my time setting up the tiles for delivery, and select a delivery style that is slightly more complex and will take a longer time to deal (e.g. Phoenix Tail, One Man Two Women, Ghost Closes the Door, etc.). Then when I'm setting my hand I won't just pick them up and look; rather I'll feel all the dots, set my hand blind, and THEN pick them up to double check before finalizing it. Sometime if I'm not sure of a hand I'll ask the dealer what the house way is, and this can lead to a minute or two discussion, especially if the dealer is a talker. All this time-wasting serves to slow down the game and help "eat into" the house edge, but I wouldn't do it if other players were at the table.

When other players are there, ESPECIALLY Asians (I'm white), you have to be careful when you bank because a lot of them are superstitious. Generally it's okay to bank after the dealer has had a huge win, otherwise the other players will either sit out the hand or try to talk you out of banking. Then everyone will go in together against the house, and the players' hand is usually divided up between two people to set. When the table is full of Asians, I usually just go along with whenever they decide to bank purely for etiquette reasons. If there's only one or two other people, I will ask them if they mind if I bank, but even then I won't do every other hand.

Now I will give a detailed description of a co-banking scenario:

At some point after the end of the last end, one person will indicate he wishes to bank. If the player has not specified, the dealer will ask him which spot he wishes the bank to be on. This can be any spot on the table, regardless of where the player sits. The dealer will place the chung (banker tile) on that spot. The dealer then goes around the table asking each player if he wishes to co-bank, and for how much money. There is some stipulation about how much you can bank based on your last hand, but I don't know what it is since I'm a flat bettor. The players do not have to put up any money at this point (nor even play) but I like to at least have the amount sitting in front of me (not in the betting circle) so there isn't any confusion. The dealer will assemble the chips from the chip tray totaling the amount of money wagered by the players and place it in front of him.

After the tiles have been shuffled and stacked (this usually happens before asking the players how much they're banking for), the dealer will push the woodpile over the the main banker who then may cut the tiles and set them up for delivery in a style he so chooses. There is usually a house-approved list of delivery styles, but I am told there are several pit bosses at Harrah's who will allow "outside" styles. The main banker also has the option to just tell the dealer what style he wants, and the dealer will set up the tiles in the appropriate manner.

After this is done the dealer will pick up the dice cup and shake the dice. He will then place the dice cup on the table and slide it over to the main banker, who will then pick up the dice cup and shake it again. One of the funnest parts of banking Pai Gow is slamming the dice cup on the table after you are done shaking it. I'm not sure how hard of a slam the house will tolerate; I've hit it pretty hard myself, and I once saw a high roller slam it so hard I thought he was going to crack the table. I am also not sure if other players are allowed to shake the dice in lieu of the main banker; I've only ever seen the main banker do it.

After the main banker has shaken the dice, the dealer lifts the cup and exposes the dice total. This indicates the spot that the first tiles are dealt to. The dealer will deal all of the tiles out, and place the aforementioned stack of chips on top of his tiles (this is usually done with the chung when the house is banking). The main banker takes the tiles dealt to the banking spot and the rest of the tiles are collected up by the dealer and set aside. At this point several things may happen...

The main banker can simply set the tiles as he wishes and be done with it. However, due to other people's money being on the line, this is usually not done for etiquette reasons. The main banker can also just flip over all the tiles and the banking players may collectively discuss how to set the hand. What usually happens, however, is that the main banker will give one or two tiles to another player to inspect. According to Harrah's, only one other player is allowed to receive tiles, but I have seen four players involved in this with permission from the house. Again, at this point, there are several things that may happen...

The main banker may give one tile to another player, and then looks at the three tiles remaining in his hand. He will set these tiles how he sees fit, or even just flip them over on the table, and then "ask" the player with the single tile for a specific tile, be it "low" or "high" or "teen" or whatever. Naturally the player with the single tile has no control over what tile he has received, but he has to make a show of trying to produced the requested for tile. This can involve rubbing the tile on the felt to "get rid of" bad or unwanted spots. This player most often will not look at the tile first, but rather feel it with his fingers to determine its ranking. He will then either flip it over and give it to the main banker, or ask for one of the three tiles the main banker has to set the hand.

Another option involves the main banker giving one tile to another player, keeping one tile for himself, and flipping over the remaining two tiles on the table. In this case main banker and the player may go through the process of rubbing the tile on the felt and feeling the tile before flipping it, in the hopes of getting a good tile. At this point, if there is an obvious choice, the player and main banker will each select one of the exposed tiles and put it with the tile in their hand. It is often not uncommon for the in-hand tiles to just be exposed and everyone collaborates as to what the best option would be.

A third option has the main banker giving two tiles to a player and keeping two for himself. The main banker and player will again go through the motions of rubbing and feeling the tiles, and if they have a good hand, so be it, or they might exchange a tile to make a better hand. Once the players have decided on what hands to play, it's not uncommon for the tiles to just remain exposed while the dealer sets his hand. He removes the stack of chips from his tiles and sets them according to the house way, and the hands are settled. If there's a push, obviously nothing happens. If the players win, they receive their winnings minus commission, and if they lose, only then do they actually have to produce the chips to pay the house.

As you can see, when there are multiple players at the table, banking becomes a very social, collective, and superstitious affair.

Interesting read! What if there is a dispute regarding how the banker set the hand? Are there rules covering who gets the final say? Can a hand be set "fouled" when co-banking?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Interesting read! What if there is a dispute regarding how the banker set the hand? Are there rules covering who gets the final say? Can a hand be set "fouled" when co-banking?

As far as I know, the person who initially requested the bank has the final say. After all, no one else is required to be in the hand in the first place. They are given the option to either play or sit out before the tiles are even dealt. The tiles are shared among players purely for etiquette reasons. Also, you are not even required to co-bank. You can actually bet against a player who is banking, although this seems to be exceptionally rare in Vegas. In fact, I've only seen it happen twice. One time I was banking and the other player was just being an a-hole in general and bet against me, and another time I actually did it to another banker by accident. Players will either co-bank together against the casino, or sit out the hand altogether.

Quote: gamerfreak

Has there been any successful Pai Gow Tile sidebets?

There are a couple listed on WoO but as far as I know they each have only one placement. One of them is at the Palace Station and I never see anyone betting it.

A few more notes on superstitions/nuances in Pai Gow Tiles:

If a new player or new dealer comes to the table, an Asian player may reduce his bet to the absolute minimum. For example, a player may be betting $75-$100 each on two spots, but when a new player sits down, he may limit his bet to $25 on one spot. It is also very common for players to switch spots they are betting on in between hands, if one spot is considered "unlucky." A player may even go so far as to put the "Reserved" tile on an unlucky spot. Incidentally, there is always one spot at a Tile table that is not allowed to be played. It doesn't matter which; it can be decided by any player. This is done so that even at a full table, there are always four tiles (in addition to the dealer's four) that will be completely unknown to anyone to prevent any kind of serious collusion.

As I've previously mentioned, many Asian players will only bank after the dealer has had a big or lucky win. This is done in order to "break up the dealer's luck." If YOU are winning, then you don't want to "break up" your OWN luck by banking. Some Asian players don't care about this, though, and they won't get upset if you bank at a random time. I usually ask, though, just to be polite.

It also happens that after a hand has been played, a player or players may ask for the dealer to expose the tiles from a hand that has not been played. For example, if the 5 spot was a dead hand, a player may ask to see what those tiles were after the hand has been played and all bets settled. In fact, this is a perfectly legal request (I assume depending on the casino; you can do it at Harrah's), and as such is not superstition in itself, but if the exposed dead hand is deemed to be a "monster" hand, the player may switch spots and begin betting on that one. If a spot is considered to be ESPECIALLY lucky, more than one player may have a bet on it at any one time. I'm not sure what the house rules and limits on this are; I've seen 3-4 different players bet on one spot, in addition to betting on their own spot.

Although technically "illegal" (I think), it is not uncommon to ask another player for advice on setting your own hand, especially if you can see they are clearly a more experienced player. I've done this on more than one occasion, and neither the dealer nor the floor people cared. I guess don't do this on every single hand, and you should be fine. In fact, I have actually had players lean over my shoulder unsolicited to look at my hand and suggest what to play.

Quote: TigerWu

Although technically "illegal" (I think), it is not uncommon to ask another player for advice on setting your own hand, especially if you can see they are clearly a more experienced player. I've done this on more than one occasion, and neither the dealer nor the floor people cared. I guess don't do this on every single hand, and you should be fine. In fact, I have actually had players lean over my shoulder unsolicited to look at my hand and suggest what to play.

Funny story playing PGP, since collusion really offers no advantage to the player, and often someone will lay their cards face up when asking the dealer to set them the house way, I always figured showing your hand was allowed. Well, during my trip to Vegas, I was smoking a cigar while playing (sorry if you hate smokers, I always ask the table/dealer if they mind), and since I had a cigar in one hand I was just flipping over my cards and setting them face up. The pit boss, who I developed a rapport and had been joking with over the past few nights, caught wind of this and came running over and yelled "WHAT ARE YOU F**ING RETARDED?!". I told her that autism is a wide spectrum and picked up my cards.

Quote: Wizard

There are a couple listed on WoO but as far as I know they each have only one placement. One of them is at the Palace Station and I never see anyone betting it.

I wanted to create a bo bo bonus, but I don't think it would be profitable.

Thanks for that info.

Quote: Wizard

3, 4. I don't like that one. My general rule of thumb is that if you can get the low to at least 5, then balance. If that doesn't work, and you can't get the high to at least a high 6, then go back to balancing.

Isn't there some rule of thumb about the "average" Pai Gow hand being 5/9, so you want a combo that gives you a low hand of at least 5 and/or a high hand of at least 9? I.e., if you can play, say, either 4,8 or 0,9, you'd want 0,9 because even though it's not balanced that at least gives you an average or better high hand. Is that what you're talking about here?

Also, another "rule of thumb" I remember being taught was if your best low hand is a 2 or lower (or maybe even a very low 3), just scrap it and dump as many points as possible into the high hand even if it makes your low hand a 0.

regarding 'hard to learn' , I thought it might work to just use the trainer at WoO , the free game that corrects you. It didn't work - I was still mystified

Quote: Wizard

I'm happy to announce that I finally got around to shooting three videos on pai gow (tiles) last week. The first part was on the rules, the second on strategy, and the third is on miscellaneous questions on pai gow. So look forward to those coming out soon after we edit them...

I'd like to check these out. If I knew how to play proper strategy for tiles I might be more apt to giving it a go. I hope you post them here after they're done being edited =).

Quote: TigerWu

Isn't there some rule of thumb about the "average" Pai Gow hand being 5/9, so you want a combo that gives you a low hand of at least 5 and/or a high hand of at least 9? I.e., if you can play, say, either 4,8 or 0,9, you'd want 0,9 because even though it's not balanced that at least gives you an average or better high hand. Is that what you're talking about here?

I use the 5/9 balance strategy almost exclusively. When the result of the balance isn't obvious, maximize the low hand. One such situation which I encounter frequently is choosing between 4/9 or 5/8. Maximizing the low hand makes the hand stronger. This is optimal in most cases, and the error is small when it isn't.

I discovered a leak in my game recently using the Wizard's calculator. I was making gongs and wongs even if this resulted in 3's and 4's in the low hand. I discovered it is greatly advantageous to set the hand like 6/8 instead. This kind of makes sense using the balance strategy, but I guess I was overly enthusiastic about making gongs and wongs.

Here's how I check my acumen. Use the Wizard's calculator to generate a random hand. Figure out how I would set it. Then get the calculator to analyze it. If I picked the optimum division, I'm golden. Otherwise, I record the difference between optimum and my selection. Do this over 50 or 100 hands, and you can calculate how often you err and how much it costs you. The above leak was showing up once or twice every 50 hands, and was costing me about 0.25% in house edge. Glad I found and fixed it!

Quote: PapaChubby

I use the 5/9 balance strategy almost exclusively. When the result of the balance isn't obvious, maximize the low hand. One such situation which I encounter frequently is choosing between 4/9 or 5/8. Maximizing the low hand makes the hand stronger. This is optimal in most cases, and the error is small when it isn't.

I discovered a leak in my game recently using the Wizard's calculator. I was making gongs and wongs even if this resulted in 3's and 4's in the low hand. I discovered it is greatly advantageous to set the hand like 6/8 instead. This kind of makes sense using the balance strategy, but I guess I was overly enthusiastic about making gongs and wongs.

Here's how I check my acumen. Use the Wizard's calculator to generate a random hand. Figure out how I would set it. Then get the calculator to analyze it. If I picked the optimum division, I'm golden. Otherwise, I record the difference between optimum and my selection. Do this over 50 or 100 hands, and you can calculate how often you err and how much it costs you. The above leak was showing up once or twice every 50 hands, and was costing me about 0.25% in house edge. Glad I found and fixed it!

I have now idea if this is true, but is going for a strong low vs. a strong high better because it is counter to the house way for setting hands, so hopefully generating more pushes? Do most house ways try to maximize the high hand first?

Quote: Ayecarumba

I have now idea if this is true, but is going for a strong low vs. a strong high better because it is counter to the house way for setting hands, so hopefully generating more pushes? Do most house ways try to maximize the high hand first?

I'm not a wiz on house ways or optimal strategies. Too many rules. It's why I adopted the 5/9 balance approach. I think most strategies go something like: "Maximize the low hand, unless you can make high-9, gong or wong in the high hand, unless...." That's about when I stopped paying attention, which is why I was making the mistake of setting too many gongs and wongs. I'm really not sure what the house way is for these situations.

But maximizing the low hand in this situation makes sense based on the balance strategy. 5 and 9 are the "centers" of the probability distribution functions for the low and high hand, respectively. (Math purists, please don't get mad at me. I'm an engineer, not a mathematician.) In addition, the pdf for the low hand is narrower and steeper for that of the high hand. So if you're in the same area of each curve, you can improve your EV by improving the low hand at the expense of the high hand.

Here's an example: L8+2+L4+L10. One way to set is 4/Gong. The better alternative is 6/8. Both cases are similarly balanced with respect to 5/9: one hand is a bit worse that average and one is a bit better. But by improving the low hand you're "claiming" a larger area of the low hand pdf than you're giving up from the high hand, because of the shape of the curve. Playing the hand 6/8 gains about 4.5% in EV.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I have now idea if this is true, but is going for a strong low vs. a strong high better because it is counter to the house way for setting hands, so hopefully generating more pushes? Do most house ways try to maximize the high hand first?

The tactic of setting counter to the house way in certain situation does have merit. Here's another example: 5+H4+H10+L10. I'm pretty sure that house way is 4/5. But setting the hand 0/9 gains about 5% in EV. Partly this is true because it is counter to the house way and will generate more pushes at the expense of a few wins. But it also makes sense based on the 5/9 balance strategy. With 4/5, the low hand is slightly below average and the high hand is well below average. For 0/9, the low hand is well below average, but the high hand is average, which should get you a push about half the time.

This thread inspired me to learn this game, and I think I have the simple strategy pretty much down. I'm looking forward to trying it out live in a few days.

I have one question - do the two tiles making up chop pairs have any rank compared to each other? For instance if the dealer and I both have 9-5 for a low hand, is that an automatic dealer win, or if I have 3:6 tile and the dealer has the 4:5 tile, do I win?

It's an automatic banker win. The 3:6 and the 4:5 tile are identical for the purposes of gameplay. The only difference between them is the way they look.

The is a side bet that has plenty of placement

It’s for a pair. Two pair Supreme pair and supreme paid with a pair of teen tiles

Payouts are
3-1
4-1
8-1
300-1. And something else in there like 20-1 I think

It was at sugarhouse for a few weeks and removed
It’s still at sands bethlaham and was at the palazzo as of a few weeks ago
I’ve also seen it at others

Quote: Wizardofnothing

The is a side bet that has plenty of placement

It’s for a pair. Two pair Supreme pair and supreme paid with a pair of teen tiles

Payouts are
3-1
4-1
8-1
300-1. And something else in there like 20-1 I think

It was at sugarhouse for a few weeks and removed
It’s still at sands bethlaham and was at the palazzo as of a few weeks ago
I’ve also seen it at others

I can easily see a dealer intentionally picking up a pair together. Just identifying two exact tiles and keeping their position known until they start stacking would certainly be possible. With the randomization of who gets which tiles the dealer would not be able to preferentially give the pair to a specific player, but I would surmise the EV from that side bet is huge if there is a pre set pair. I am surprised that this side bet would even be considered.

Here is a progress report on my pai gow basic strategy. What I have been concentrating on is hands with a pair that are not obvious. In other words, breaking the pair will help the low hand. I'm striving for simplicity with this strategy, as opposed to power. Here is the best set of rules I've come up with so far:

First, count gongs at 10 points, wongs as 11, and any pair as 12 points.

1. Never split the 10 or 11 pair.
2. If splitting the pair results in more total points, then split it.
3. If splitting the pair results in the same number of total points, and that total is 14 or less, then split the pair (edited).

Otherwise, retain the pair.

Questions? Comments?

Quote: Wizard

First, count gongs at 10 points, wongs as 11, and any pair as 12 points.

1. Never split the 10 or 11 pair.
2. If splitting the pair results in more total points, then split it.
3. If splitting the pair results in the same number of total points, and that total is 15 or more, then split the pair.

Otherwise, retain the pair.

Questions? Comments?

Can you give an example hand for this? I'm not quite understanding the explanation... :(

Quote: TigerWu

Can you give an example hand for this? I'm not quite understanding the explanation... :(

Let's say you have gee,gee,5,6.
Retaining the pair gives you a pair in the high and a 1 in the low. 13 total points. Remember I count a pair as being worth 12 points.
If you split the pair, you can make 8 in the low and 9 in the high. 17 total points.
17 is more than 13, so split.

Now let's say you have gee,gee,11,12.
Retaining the pair gives you a pair in the high and a 3 in the low. 15 total points.
If you split the pair, you can make 7 in the low and 8 in the high. 15 total points.
This is a tie. Because the total points equals 15 or more, split it.

Moving all, I have been looking at hands where high-9, wong, or gong can be played just one way. In that case, I've found the house way is pretty good -- play the way that makes the high-9, gong, or wong.

There are 30 situations where playing something else is better. I experimented with rules like playing the best low if it is 6/7, 7/7, or 7/8 and there is a low-2 tile, but it didn't help much. Not worth making the strategy more complicated.

The cost of errors due to my splitting strategy is only 0.01%
The cost of errors due to my strategy above is 0.04%.

I played this for the first time at the Horseshoe in Hammond today for about two hours. It took a lot of mental concentration to both read the hands correctly and remember the correct strategy. The dealer and other players were patient with me. I was playing the minimum $25 and won about $150.

I asked the dealer to let me know at the end of the hand if I played house way or not, and it seemed like I was off the house way mainly with playing 8-1 instead of 5-4 or 7-0 instead of 4-3. Missed out on some wins that way, but also avoided some losses.

Quote: jmills

I asked the dealer to let me know at the end of the hand if I played house way or not, and it seemed like I was off the house way mainly with playing 8-1 instead of 5-4 or 7-0 instead of 4-3. Missed out on some wins that way, but also avoided some losses.

You played those right. The house way is too conservative with balancing. I will revisit this very shortly, but if I can't make 5 in the high hand, then I will maximize the high. Unless the combined points is 7 or less, then I'll go back to balancing.

After a lot of work, I have developed my strategy for situations where the player has at least 2 options between high-9, gong, and wong. This is maybe a little more complicated than I was hoping for but no one or two rules of thumb apply to every situation nicely. That said.

Again, count 0-9 point hands according to its number of points, gongs as 10 and wongs as 11.

First -- If you have both the 2 and 12 tiles, always play the 12 in the high hand.

With 10 or 11 total points -- maximize the high
With 12 total points -- maximize the high, except if it is a high-8 gong, then balance
With 13 total points -- maximize the high, except if it is a high-8 gong, then play a high-9
With 14 or more total points -- play high-9 if you can, otherwise low 8 gong and 5 if you can, otherwise best low.

Any questions?

The cost of errors with these types of hands is only 0.04% with this strategy.

Remember, you want to loathe wasting a high 8 in a gong, although it is still sometimes the right play.

I finished the last piece. At least I think I did. Here is my basic strategy for all hands that don't have a pair, high 9, gong, or wong possibility:

1. With 6 or less total points -- balance.
2. With 7 to 9 points -- play best high.
3. With 10 to 15 points -- If you can get to 5 or more in the low, then balance. Otherwise, play best high.
4. With 16 or more points -- play best high.

Cost due to errors with this class of hands is 0.14%. This class of hands will occur 37.4% of the time.

So, that is it. You're the first to see my pai gow basic strategy. Total cost of errors is 0.26%.

Quote: jmills

I played this for the first time at the Horseshoe in Hammond today for about two hours. It took a lot of mental concentration to both read the hands correctly and remember the correct strategy. The dealer and other players were patient with me. I was playing the minimum $25 and won about $150.

I asked the dealer to let me know at the end of the hand if I played house way or not, and it seemed like I was off the house way mainly with playing 8-1 instead of 5-4 or 7-0 instead of 4-3. Missed out on some wins that way, but also avoided some losses.

I play at Hammond occasionally too. The dealers are all very nice. My issue is that I don't have enough confidence to go against the house way. I'll get an 8-1 and they act like I'm crazy for playing it like that.

Quote: Wizard

So, that is it. You're the first to see my pai gow basic strategy. Total cost of errors is 0.26%.

Awesome! Will you be updating the Tile page on your site with a new chart?

Quote: FinsRule

and they act like I'm crazy for playing it like that.

The dealer and the other players may indeed think that you are crazy but if you win, they will start to notice that being crazy can be profitable.

Quote: Wizard

After a lot of work, I have developed my strategy for situations where the player has at least 2 options between high-9, gong, and wong. This is maybe a little more complicated than I was hoping for but no one or two rules of thumb apply to every situation nicely. That said.

Again, count 0-9 point hands according to its number of points, gongs as 10 and wongs as 11.

First -- If you have both the 2 and 12 tiles, always play the 12 in the high hand.

With 10 or 11 total points -- maximize the high
With 12 total points -- maximize the high, except if it is a high-8 gong, then balance
With 13 total points -- maximize the high, except if it is a high-8 gong, then play a high-9
With 14 or more total points -- play high-9 if you can, otherwise low 8 gong and 5 if you can, otherwise best low.

Any questions?

The cost of errors with these types of hands is only 0.04% with this strategy.

Remember, you want to loathe wasting a high 8 in a gong, although it is still sometimes the right play.

Does the above only apply when you have two options between high-9, gong, or wong? If you have a 15 point hand with a choice between 9-6 or wong-4, which do you take? From the above I would say 9-6, but for the hand H4, teen, L10, 9, your calculator says wong-4.

Quote: jmills

Does the above only apply when you have two options between high-9, gong, or wong? If you have a 15 point hand with a choice between 9-6 or wong-4, which do you take? From the above I would say 9-6, but for the hand H4, teen, L10, 9, your calculator says wong-4.

Yes. I already posted the strategy for one-way possible with H9, gong or wong. My advance is to just play that one way. So my basic strategy would say to play the Wong in your example.

All the previous results were based on the player banking. In retrospect, I should have optimized this for the dealer banking. Anyway, here are the error rates both ways:

Player banking: 0.26%
Dealer banking: 0.32%
Combined: 0.29%

Next step is to write it up.