Theoretically if I could AP Pai Gow... Would I get backed off?
June 27th, 2017 at 12:26:23 AM
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Let's say I find a way to AP a non-blackjack game like Pai Gow. Theoretically. Let's say I AP it in a similar way as blackjack.
Would I be free to do whatever I want? Can I Spread 1-100 without worrying about heat like I would in blackjack?
I know large spreads are uncommon in other table games even more so then they are in blackjack. But do the casinos even care about the other games being AP'd?
Assume no cheating of any sort is involved. Just plain old AP.
Would I be free to do whatever I want? Can I Spread 1-100 without worrying about heat like I would in blackjack?
I know large spreads are uncommon in other table games even more so then they are in blackjack. But do the casinos even care about the other games being AP'd?
Assume no cheating of any sort is involved. Just plain old AP.
June 27th, 2017 at 12:54:01 AM
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What's Nike's slogan?
"Just Do It"
"Just Do It"
June 27th, 2017 at 5:06:19 AM
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Once the casino realized they were consistently losing and what you were doing was skillfully repeatable then yes they would back u off
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
June 27th, 2017 at 5:53:46 AM
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People get backed off from ALL casino games. And certain PGP games are beatable.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 27th, 2017 at 6:58:08 AM
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There is less heat at other games. However, they can (and will) eventually figure out you're a winning player all the same... Unless you do a really good job of rotating shops, shifts, etc. Heck, they don't even have to figure out what you're doing... If they just realize they always lose to you they can just ask you to leave all the same. However, if they do figure out what you're doing usually AP'ing other games than blackjack gets more than a "no more blackjack" back-off. They tend to treat AP's doing legal things on other games a bit harsher, but again that's if they actually figure out what you're doing. Otherwise they might just back you off because you're always winning/etc.
Last edited by: Romes on Jun 27, 2017
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
June 27th, 2017 at 7:31:44 AM
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They might back you off. They might not. It's not a simple yes/no answer, but there are many variables in it. How big you're playing, how much you're winning, what kinda store is it and what kinda action do they get, is the store sweaty, is the fooor/boss sweaty, etc. They may not give a shoot if you're at a few % edge playing $500 hands, if the place has plenty of $10k bettors. Now if you have some huge edge, that means you'll be winning frequently and a large amount compared to your bet. That's far different than a blackjack card counter who has a small edge and all their play for an entire weekend is basically a coin flip. Some wins some losses. Would be very difficult to tell someone is a BJ CC based on their wins and losses.
C'mon, let's not be a damn Neanderthal.
Quote: RomesThere are less heat at other games.
C'mon, let's not be a damn Neanderthal.
June 27th, 2017 at 7:40:08 AM
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Fixed it for you. My apologies for any aneurysms it caused you. That are not my intent...Quote: RS...
Quote: RomesThere are less heat at other games.
C'mon, let's not be a damn Neanderthal.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
June 27th, 2017 at 2:55:50 PM
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Quote: RomesFixed it for you. My apologies for any aneurysms it caused you. That are not my intent...Quote: RS...
Quote: RomesThere are less heat at other games.
C'mon, let's not be a damn Neanderthal.
I R do grammar good.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
June 27th, 2017 at 4:23:42 PM
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Certainly better than "There bes"
June 27th, 2017 at 5:35:23 PM
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If they didn't know what you were doing and you were losing they would not care, but as soon as they got scared, they would care and try figuring out your scheme.
I am a robot.
June 27th, 2017 at 7:16:39 PM
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I've personally have not heard anyone getting backed off on a non-blackjack game doing legal AP. Anyone got a story they can share?
June 27th, 2017 at 7:50:49 PM
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Quote: NeutrinoI've personally have not heard anyone getting backed off on a non-blackjack game doing legal AP. Anyone got a story they can share?
Nice try
100% risk of ruin
June 27th, 2017 at 8:09:32 PM
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Been backed off!!!!! Not willing to post but
It happens
It happens
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
June 27th, 2017 at 8:22:11 PM
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Quote: NeutrinoI've personally have not heard anyone getting backed off on a non-blackjack game doing legal AP. Anyone got a story they can share?
Yes I was backed off for playing a non blackjack game,It was on Video poker.
Happy days are here again
June 28th, 2017 at 11:08:47 AM
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True, however, no one watches Pai Gow Tiles all that much. Pai Gow Poker gets watched a good bit more closely.Quote: RomesThere is less heat at other games. However, they can (and will) eventually figure out you're a winning player all the same... Unless you do a really good job of rotating shops, shifts, etc. Heck, they don't even have to figure out what you're doing... If they just realize they always lose to you they can just ask you to leave all the same.
IF you invest in deception that time and money erodes your profits.
So vary your games and your performance. And your casinos.
You will be able to increase your bets easier at Pai Gow Tiles than Pai Gow Poker,
Try out whatever systems you want to but don't wiin too big or too often.
June 28th, 2017 at 2:15:00 PM
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No;
There are backoffs in blackjack because it is such a well known and easy to learn strategy and because it can be scaled upward. I've been earning 1% on video poker the past few weeks. But that's only worth 1.2 cents in value per spin, and what I'm doing to earn that much can't be done on higher denominations. Someone can very easily earn 1% on blackjack and they can keep moving to higher and higher tables until they're earning over $200 in value for every hand they see. Backoffs are the what is stopping us from doing that.
If you stay at a low level, there shouldn't be anything to stop you because what you're doing isn't known to the casino, and since they're not looking for it, it won't be clear what you're doing. The only way you'll get cut off is if you keep moving up in levels, until you're one of the very few betting the highest stakes and your action gets much more scrutiny. Of course if the casino does figure out how you're beating them, they may not need to back you off, they'll just come up with better game protection (mind boggling that the casinos don't simply do that for blackjack).
There are backoffs in blackjack because it is such a well known and easy to learn strategy and because it can be scaled upward. I've been earning 1% on video poker the past few weeks. But that's only worth 1.2 cents in value per spin, and what I'm doing to earn that much can't be done on higher denominations. Someone can very easily earn 1% on blackjack and they can keep moving to higher and higher tables until they're earning over $200 in value for every hand they see. Backoffs are the what is stopping us from doing that.
If you stay at a low level, there shouldn't be anything to stop you because what you're doing isn't known to the casino, and since they're not looking for it, it won't be clear what you're doing. The only way you'll get cut off is if you keep moving up in levels, until you're one of the very few betting the highest stakes and your action gets much more scrutiny. Of course if the casino does figure out how you're beating them, they may not need to back you off, they'll just come up with better game protection (mind boggling that the casinos don't simply do that for blackjack).
June 28th, 2017 at 3:26:18 PM
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Wasn't it Evenbob that said he got backed off for winning $400 at the Klondike on roulette or something like that?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
June 28th, 2017 at 3:41:22 PM
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I was backed off pai gow more then once
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
June 28th, 2017 at 8:03:58 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfWasn't it Evenbob that said he got backed off for winning $400 at the Klondike on roulette or something like that?
Yet somehow his friend had 217 straight winning roulette sessions without being backed off
June 28th, 2017 at 8:11:27 PM
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Now that's funny.Quote: michael99000Yet somehow his friend had 217 straight winning roulette sessions without being backed off
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
June 28th, 2017 at 9:37:50 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfWasn't it Evenbob that said he got backed off for winning $400 at the Klondike on roulette or something like that?
I believe he said he was counting at blackjack.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 28th, 2017 at 10:16:11 PM
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You are joking, right?Quote: IbeatyouracesI believe he said he was counting at blackjack.
I thought his entire point was anyone can get tossed out of a casino for anything(not just AP). Or perhaps it was the fact that small casinos sweat the money too much.
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If the OP has a mathematical advantage(given his past transgressions I'm not sure what to think) there's always a chance he will get heat, but if you had a choice of games to play, Baccarat would probably be the least likely to get heat making wild bets.
If real, and I had to guess, this has something to do with counting on an E-machine or video teminal with a live dealer.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
June 29th, 2017 at 12:28:49 AM
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I'm probably an idiot when it comes to AP, but for PaiGow, the power cards are the Aces, Kings and Jokers. Cards in PaiGow are of course markable because you can handle them. Dealers will sometimes show at least one of their cards if they are not careful. There's edge-sorting available too. And if there is the dragon hand that you can take after you look at the cards it will give you an advantage if you collude with the other players (know their cards) and know how many high cards the dealer has.
So there are alot of ways for PGP to be vulnerable. If you know where the Aces, Joker and King are you know what the odds are of the dealer having an high card in the back, enough probably to overcome the 2% advantage. By taking the dragon hand or not taking it, you can have an advantage if you have knowledge of what is in the dragon hand and dealer hand.
Without a dragon hand, however, the only thing you can do is manipulate your own cards based on partial knowledge of the dealer's hand and vary the setting of your hands where possible (when you have two pair and high cards, for example). I am not sure whether this is enough to overcome a HA.
I'm just thinking about the ways that PGP is exploitable. I guess post betting is possible too but sleight of hand is not for the faint of heart. There are a few casinos that let you manipulate your bet amount after the cards come out but those are few and far between I imagine.
So there are alot of ways for PGP to be vulnerable. If you know where the Aces, Joker and King are you know what the odds are of the dealer having an high card in the back, enough probably to overcome the 2% advantage. By taking the dragon hand or not taking it, you can have an advantage if you have knowledge of what is in the dragon hand and dealer hand.
Without a dragon hand, however, the only thing you can do is manipulate your own cards based on partial knowledge of the dealer's hand and vary the setting of your hands where possible (when you have two pair and high cards, for example). I am not sure whether this is enough to overcome a HA.
I'm just thinking about the ways that PGP is exploitable. I guess post betting is possible too but sleight of hand is not for the faint of heart. There are a few casinos that let you manipulate your bet amount after the cards come out but those are few and far between I imagine.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
July 1st, 2017 at 6:09:54 AM
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I think banking is probably involved. And if it is, then the casino is not going to care as much, because it's going to be hard for them to tell exactly how the player is making his money.
If it's not banking, then it's the player knowing all of the cards around him. Eventually the casino is going to tighten their practices of allowing talking/peeking. If the game is tightened up, then you can't AP PGP.
If it's not banking, then it's the player knowing all of the cards around him. Eventually the casino is going to tighten their practices of allowing talking/peeking. If the game is tightened up, then you can't AP PGP.
July 1st, 2017 at 7:36:55 AM
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If its peanuts, particularly other people's peanuts, the casino won't become alarmed quite so readily, but there is always a limit to being complacent. It onlly takes one pissed off jerk to ruin things.
July 1st, 2017 at 1:08:18 PM
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When I worked at a casino one of the bac degens with a retarded betting system told me he'd been backed off in vegas.
Maybe the boss was an evil genius who wanted the degen to think he was onto something but i think it's more likely he just saw a guy down ng a bunch of weird stuff and winning and figured better safe than sorry.
Maybe the boss was an evil genius who wanted the degen to think he was onto something but i think it's more likely he just saw a guy down ng a bunch of weird stuff and winning and figured better safe than sorry.
July 3rd, 2017 at 2:15:54 PM
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AP anything long enough, and you'll win. Win anywhere long enough and you'll get backed off
July 3rd, 2017 at 2:21:22 PM
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Exactly, especially online where their analysis is built into the platform.Quote: TreeAP anything long enough, and you'll win. Win anywhere long enough and you'll get backed off
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
July 3rd, 2017 at 2:27:33 PM
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Quote: TreeAP anything long enough, and you'll win. Win anywhere long enough and you'll get backed off
I always wonder how low I can sit in my seat playing carnival games before I look suspicious.
July 3rd, 2017 at 3:37:46 PM
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Quote: TreeWin anywhere long enough and you'll get backed off
Have to replace "long enough" with "big enough." The under $10 per hour crowd -- 5-3-2-2-1 deuces wild or a $5 to $50 spread at blackjack -- is usually allowed to operate indefinitely.
Almost certain Pai Gow would operate the same way, with the added measure of being harder for the casino to detect if the player had an advantage or not. And since there are about 20 casinos in Las Vegas with Pai Gow, a full time player would only have to play one to two hours per week at each one, giving the house even less of a chance to catch on.
July 4th, 2017 at 12:07:05 PM
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Quote: TreeAP anything long enough, and you'll win. Win anywhere long enough and you'll get backed off
So, why don't they bac off bacaratt players? I see Bac players all the time winning 10k+ and I've even had a few of them tell me that they are consistent winners at the game.
July 4th, 2017 at 12:22:24 PM
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Quote: NeutrinoSo, why don't they bac off bacaratt players? I see Bac players all the time winning 10k+ and I've even had a few of them tell me that they are consistent winners at the game.
A: They are lying
B: For everyone winning 10k+ you are missing the guy losing 100k+
C: The game cannot be beat consistently without an edge or flaw like a Phil Ivey found.
Feel free to mix the answers anyway you want. They are interchangeable.
July 4th, 2017 at 12:49:21 PM
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Quote: boymimboI'm probably an idiot when it comes to AP, but for PaiGow, the power cards are the Aces, Kings and Jokers. Cards in PaiGow are of course markable because you can handle them. Dealers will sometimes show at least one of their cards if they are not careful. There's edge-sorting available too. And if there is the dragon hand that you can take after you look at the cards it will give you an advantage if you collude with the other players (know their cards) and know how many high cards the dealer has.
So there are alot of ways for PGP to be vulnerable. If you know where the Aces, Joker and King are you know what the odds are of the dealer having an high card in the back, enough probably to overcome the 2% advantage. By taking the dragon hand or not taking it, you can have an advantage if you have knowledge of what is in the dragon hand and dealer hand.
Without a dragon hand, however, the only thing you can do is manipulate your own cards based on partial knowledge of the dealer's hand and vary the setting of your hands where possible (when you have two pair and high cards, for example). I am not sure whether this is enough to overcome a HA.
I'm just thinking about the ways that PGP is exploitable. I guess post betting is possible too but sleight of hand is not for the faint of heart. There are a few casinos that let you manipulate your bet amount after the cards come out but those are few and far between I imagine.
You are right, PGP is AP'able although it's not as easy as blackjack. Which is why I was hoping to see if the lack of heat in PGP in comparison to BJ makes up for its additional difficulty to AP
