JB
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JB
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smoothgrh
May 31st, 2017 at 3:34:31 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

One thing I noticed at a full table is that sometimes the players will want to know where all the Teen and Day tiles are. So, I guess if it's discovered that all of the Teen and Day tiles are in player hands, that might be some useful information some how?? I don't know, that's the kind of math that's way above my head when it comes to tiles.


I studied this several years ago.

It is an advantageous situation to be in when the dealer has no Teen or Day tiles.

The catch is, the advantage comes from the situation itself -- the dealer having only relatively poor tiles in their hand -- not from the strategy you use when you find yourself in that situation.

If you adjust your strategy to optimally take advantage of the situation, the best you can do is only marginally better than just using the regular optimal strategy.

I don't recall exactly what the decrease in house edge was, I think it was 0.03% or less, and there were many bizarre exceptions you had to learn to achieve that. Furthermore, this included 9 different strategies according to how many Teen and how many Day tiles were seen outside of the dealer's hand. Even with all of that, the decrease in house edge was minuscule. I concluded it was not worth pursuing.

Knowing exactly what the dealer's tiles are (and how they would set them), however, is another matter entirely.
ontariodealer
ontariodealer
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May 31st, 2017 at 3:43:40 PM permalink
most of my regulars discuss where the teens and days are...but it doesn't help their long term profit because they are gamblers not ap's
get second you pig
Wizard
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Wizard
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May 31st, 2017 at 5:11:10 PM permalink
Quote: JB

I don't recall exactly what the decrease in house edge was, I think it was 0.03% or less,



Thanks for chiming in. Could it be said you only looked at the situation of counting teens and days, not determining the exact eight tiles left?

Surprising it is only 0.03%. I'd have guessed a lot more.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
JB
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JB
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June 1st, 2017 at 2:55:42 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks for chiming in. Could it be said you only looked at the situation of counting teens and days, not determining the exact eight tiles left?

Surprising it is only 0.03%. I'd have guessed a lot more.


Yes, that is what I did: develop different strategies based on how many Teen/Day tiles were observed outside of the dealer's hand.

I did not look at the situation where the dealer's tiles were known. I suspect that would provide enough of an advantage to crush the game in a low-variance manner if all 7 players were in on it.
Wizard
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Wizard
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June 1st, 2017 at 4:19:31 PM permalink
Quote: JB

I did not look at the situation where the dealer's tiles were known. I suspect that would provide enough of an advantage to crush the game in a low-variance manner if all 7 players were in on it.



I think it is a moot question too since there always seems to be a dummy hand. Unless you marked the tiles.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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June 2nd, 2017 at 8:25:30 AM permalink
I'm slightly confused about the JB simple strategy for tiles... (I'm going to throw out random numbers just to illustrate my question; I have no idea if these combinations are even possible in tiles.)

It says play the first rule that applies. The first rule is the "only one way" rule. Does this rule only apply to a situation where my high hand and low hand are simultaneously higher than any other combination?

The very last rule says, "Play the best high hand with all other combinations." Does this mean I ignore things like balance; i.e., if I can play (non-high)9,0 or 6,6 or 7,5, I would play 9,0 and not 6,6?

I'm just so used to the 4-rule "basic strategy" of:

1) pairs
2) high-9, gongs, wongs
3) two tiles totaling 9
4) biggest tile with smallest tile for balance

that I'm not sure if the the JB strategy is supposed to supersede all of that, or if that strategy is just "assumed" in the "only one way" part.

I hope my questions make sense.

EDIT: Okay, I think I might have just answered my own questions, but I'm going to let this stand just to get some more input.
JB
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JB
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TigerWu
June 2nd, 2017 at 9:15:53 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

It says play the first rule that applies. The first rule is the "only one way" rule. Does this rule only apply to a situation where my high hand and low hand are simultaneously higher than any other combination?


Yes, just be aware that some hands which have only one way to play might not appear that way at first glance.

A great example is: Teen(or Day) + L10 + H6 + Gee

choice 1: 2/9 = 11 points
choice 2: 6/8 = 14 points
choice 3: 6/8 = 14 points

2/9 is no good because it has fewer points, even though its high hand outranks the other two.
So that leaves two ways to play 6/8.
But one of these ways is also no good, the one that wastes the H6 by playing it with the Teen/Day tile.

So the only way to play this hand is playing Teen/Day + Gee in the high hand, and H6+L10 in the low hand.

Quote: TigerWu

The very last rule says, "Play the best high hand with all other combinations." Does this mean I ignore things like balance; i.e., if I can play (non-high)9,0 or 6,6 or 7,5, I would play 9,0 and not 6,6?


You need to follow the rules in the order they are listed, using the first one that applies.

So if you can make 6/6 you would have followed the first rule in that section which says to play the best low hand if it's worth 5, 6, or 7 points.

Quote: TigerWu

I'm just so used to the 4-rule "basic strategy" ... I'm not sure if the the JB strategy is supposed to supersede all of that, or if that strategy is just "assumed" in the "only one way" part.


My simple strategy outperforms the house way. Try to unlearn the house way, as it's not very powerful.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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June 2nd, 2017 at 9:30:49 AM permalink
Quote: JB


My simple strategy outperforms the house way. Try to unlearn the house way, as it's not very powerful.



Thank you for your input, JB!! I was all over the place and just confusing myself when the answers were right in front of me, because, as you say, I need unlearn what I have learned.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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June 5th, 2017 at 7:43:59 AM permalink
How would I play the following tiles with the JB strategy, and which rule applies?

1) H8, H6, L6, L8

2) H2, L2, L6, L10

3) L2, H10, H4, 11
smoothgrh
smoothgrh
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June 5th, 2017 at 9:15:22 AM permalink
A suggestion for all who haven't done this already: get yourself a pai gow tiles set to practice.

They're at eBay, Chinese grocery stores (usually at the front counter where they keep the expensive liquor), and at the gambling supply stores in Las Vegas.

I found it's a lot easier to get used to holding the tiles and moving them around.

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