Jice
Jice
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May 30th, 2017 at 4:23:59 PM permalink
Is there an advantage to knowing all players' tiles on a full table to narrow down what the dealer has?
Aussie
Aussie
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May 30th, 2017 at 8:09:53 PM permalink
Yes.

If I'm not mistaken there is a pai gow calculator on the Wizard of Odds site that allows you to choose additional tiles that you know other players have in their hand. That will give you some idea of how much of a difference it can make.
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
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May 31st, 2017 at 4:45:33 AM permalink
Pai Gow Tiles Calculator
TigerWu
TigerWu
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May 31st, 2017 at 8:33:25 AM permalink
On a full table of tiles there is always one spot that is kept closed and no one is allowed to play it, even though a hand of tiles is dealt there. This is to prevent exactly what you are talking about.

In theory, if you knew what all the non-dealer tiles were, then obviously you would have an advantage, but in practice, even at a full table there are always EIGHT tiles that will be unknown to the players. I don't know how much an advantage you would have even if you knew the rank of all eight tiles, because you would have no idea of the tile distribution between the dealer and dead hand.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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May 31st, 2017 at 9:03:08 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

I don't know how much an advantage you would have even if you knew the rank of all eight tiles . . .

Well if you don't know the advantage, its sure beyond me with my woefully lacking math skills but I can tell you this: the casino thinks its one hell of an advantage if they devote the time and space to dealing a "dummy" hand particularly if there is another player waiting to play.

Daubing opportunity? Contact lenses?
TigerWu
TigerWu
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May 31st, 2017 at 9:26:22 AM permalink
One thing I noticed at a full table is that sometimes the players will want to know where all the Teen and Day tiles are. So, I guess if it's discovered that all of the Teen and Day tiles are in player hands, that might be some useful information some how?? I don't know, that's the kind of math that's way above my head when it comes to tiles.
Wizard
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Wizard
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May 31st, 2017 at 9:44:06 AM permalink
I haven't studied the effect of collusion in pai gow tiles. My educated guess is that the dummy hand significantly decreases the value of collusion to the point where it doesn't overcome the house edge. However, just significantly denting it might be enough to come out on top considering comps and promotions.

I suspect experienced Asian player do announce their teens and days in Chinese or Vietnamese. Sometimes it happens that it is known the players have all four of them. That is often valuable information. If you had the choice between High-9/x, gong/x-1 and wong/x-2 you would obviously play high-9/x.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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May 31st, 2017 at 9:58:50 AM permalink
Do you have an educated guess as to what percentage of Tiles dealers have sufficient knowledge of an Oriental language to be aware of such collusive statements being made?
TigerWu
TigerWu
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May 31st, 2017 at 10:26:38 AM permalink
When I played tiles in Vegas a couple weeks ago, I'd say about 70% of the dealers I encountered were Asian and spoke Cantonese or Mandarin. One dealer was Vietnamese, so I don't know if he knew a Chinese language. I don't think the white dealers could speak it at all. When there were Asian players at the table, Chinese was freely spoken, among the players and with the dealers who could speak it. The dealers and pit bosses never seemed worried that any collusive statements were being made, at least not at Harrah's.
Wizard
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Wizard
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Thanks for this post from:
smoothgrh
May 31st, 2017 at 1:36:55 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Do you have an educated guess as to what percentage of Tiles dealers have sufficient knowledge of an Oriental language to be aware of such collusive statements being made?



My educated guess is 50%. As the poster above this one said, it could be Mandarin, Cantonese, or Vietnamese. Most pai gow dealers will speak one of these languages but I think would know enough of the others to tell when the players are attempting collusion.

The unwritten policy on collusion in tiles is to turn a blind eye to it. The casinos seem to think, I believe correctly, that collusion doesn't swing the edge to the player's favor.

I'm a little tempted to actually do some analysis on this topic but it is the kind of thing that would take weeks and the number of people who would care could be counted on two hands. Maybe just one.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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