No-Craps Craps: Crapless Craps done Right

A new No-Craps Craps game. Better than Crapless Craps and as good as regular craps?

http://www.patentlysilly.com/patent.php?patID=7134660
shows the table layout HERE

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7134660/description.html
explains the No-Crap Craps game that has the SAME HE as regular craps.HERE

The inventor is Ethier, Stewart N.
No. 10929327 filed on 08/30/2004
US Patent Nov, 14, 2006 US 7,134,660 B2
Hope he wants to bring it into casinos to replace Crapless Craps and compete with regular craps.

I have been reading his new book that the Wizard has often referenced to:
The Doctrine of Chances
Probabilistic Aspects of Gambling
Stewart N. Ethier

Those of you that can read and understand books like the one I have mentioned above, my hat is off to you!

After reading the patent info, I think this game is a great idea.
and English is my second language

I do recognize the name as that of a mathematician who has edited books on probability. I find math to be at times fascinating but at all times it does seem beyond me.

It is a nice clean layout and would be quite appealing. I've not liked the skinny boxes of the Crapless Craps table. I do wonder, however, if it is the same house edge as real craps why should the casino install that table? Would more players flock to it? I assume it would largely be new craps players who would want that new layout anyway.

New and existing players...
..don't want to play some new version of the same old game or layout, - unless it offers something completely new and exicting - and expansive - not reducing! This new game variant only reduces the existing game of craps, which is already and fully featured [and very fine] - as it is!

Crapless craps only removes one full side of the game of craps completely [the don't pass, the don't come, the lay bets] while slightly expanding the "do" or pass side. A brain hemisphere-ectomy for the game. If you feel that I am rude or incorrect on this, then please show me a casino manager or executive who purchases or leases this particular product, stating that this game product is active at his "such-and-such" casino, so that we can visit, play and review...that is what counts - new game ideas being approved by casino manager who KNOW that it is good...

Gamblers - especially crap players - generally stick to what they trust through familiarity, and what any new game really can offer to better them as players. This cannot be said any better than that. I do not see this game offering to be anything new or exciting, or worthwhile at all.

Crapless craps never really took off in its original version, to say the very least - why would a variation of an original game that "was a dog to begin with" do any better? I do not wish so much to be rude, as much as to be very to the point. Mozart was not involved with this.

Crapless craps is like "Player-side only Baccarat." No market or reason for it!

A new table game design HAS to be an improvement that ADDS FEATURES AND EXCITEMENT - NOT PERFORM A "REDUCING LOBOTOMY" - ON A GAME WE ALREADY KNOWN TRUST AND PLAY.

If you want to see a NEW and exciting crap game addition and feature, then see MathExtremist's very fine new bet for craps, his "hard pass bet for craps," entitled "Feedback on a craps side bet" here at this site, in the "Games Inventor's Corner."

SEE: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/2725-feedback-on-craps-side-bet/3/#post27156

Now THAT bet can added to the game of craps as a clear benefit.

THIS NEW game does not add anything to craps, IMHO. And I'll bet real cash dollars to donughts we won't be seeing this game, or playing this game, - in any casino near us soon - or later.

Gaming mathematicians and casino game designers perform very different functions in their areas in our common industry, and just because someone is a good gaming mathematician does NOT make him a good game desginer, and vice-versa. Mike Shackleford came up with a good BJ game, and Eliot Jacsonson cleaned up the game "Bet Your Luck" into a very sweet game, but quite often a good musician is a lousy composer, and quite often a fine composer is a poor concert musician - within the same industry.

About one thousand new gaming industry patents get filed each year, with patent lawyers making money on these dreams, and maybe one new game [and two side bets] "make it" into casinos for real - where the inventor and his distributor makes any real money. And many of them get a press release that'll appear both in the press and at this gaming forum site. For that matter, about 500,000 new authors publish a magazine article - from whom about 1% become writers who can pay their bills writing, and from that .01% will win a Pulitzer prize.

But for a new game to make it into casinos, it has to be new, novel, exciting, have a solid patent, have solid mathematics, have solid marketing behind it, be FUN to play, be approved by gaming authorities in many gaming jusisdictions, - and make money for the casinos who try it and buy it, so that the casinos can make money......and the inventors can retire. Crapless craps - and no variation of it - had done so, or will EVER do so.

I have got to say that your short post sounded so very sweet and so "good faith" about the new game article - but the new game design area of the casino business is very cut-throat and rude business, - and I say this with great sadness and experience.

As a game designer, I've seen dozens of...(actually, about one hundred) games pitched to me, and I praise very few, and the few that I do praise, I praise at this site forcefully at this site as very sharp ideas, because they have a REMOTE SHOT at making it.

Crapless craps....or any variation thereof....No....

Creating or Reviewing a new casino game is a LOT like producing an Independent film on a low budget...99.2% fail, and 0.8% are great hits... so along comes a "Blair Witch Project" that makes $300 million and becomes a sensation on a $9,200 budget from a credit card, when $20 million dollar films routinely fail.

You just don't know for sure...But I'd say crapless craps can be filtered out from the get-go as gimmicky doggie-do. REAL craps has been around for 100 years as an incredibly solid game, invented by John H. Winn in 1912 Philadelphia, has never been out of favor, and never will be in our lifetimes. For a game designer to re-write Craps is kind of like some Magazine writer trying to re-write Robert Caro's "The Power Broker," or re-writing Carl Sandburg's "A Lincoln Portrait." Won't Occur.

Summary: it is another dog. We have seen thousands.

one reason Craps cannot be improved upon is that the casinos will never accept a new version that has a similar house edge on the best bets. That kind of consideration would only go to the classic game.

No, Odious -
it's the players who decide this, with their hard earned [or stolen money] that is counted as "drop" and "hold" at the casinos who offer these games. Adds up to a real lot...the casino gets both some real table drop and table hold on a new bet or new game..it's taking off..

Crap players may INDEED adopt something new in craps - like they had with the fire bet!
But It WON'T change the basic game, for craps, it'll be a REAL better side bet, a MUCH better side bet...

And MathExtremist has a rare shot with something remarkable in craps also, too. see:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/2725-feedback-on-craps-side-bet/3/#post27156

Players fork over the cash that casinos tally up. Crapless Craps - just NOT happening. They've been there, they've tried that, they've lost their asses. Just NOT happening with crapless craps, not now or in the future. True, there are some installs getting action in MI and other places, but that cancer won't be growing further.

Simply put: craps needs its crap nunbers, its what makes it the game it is.

Fire bet -yes, - it's here now!

Hard pass bet - maybe - and a VERY good shot if it is done 100% right...

Not my "IMHO" - this is just how the industry works - money talks - get everything done to present it to a casino...Math, patent, gaming approval..$50,000 up front just to show it....then ACTUALLY sell it to a casino...AND it becomes popular and makes money, it happens...Three Card Poker...Carribean Stud...Fire bet...etc...

Brutal step every step of the way....
The dogs can be spotted, but not the winners..until seven years out...

Quote: Paigowdan

New and existing players...
..don't want to play some new version of the same old game or layout, - unless it offers something completely new and exciting ...

Perhaps. However, casinos have battles about what odds they offer in Blackjack and what table minimums they offer ... its often a constant battle for the Pit Boss or Shift Manager to juggle supply and demand as well as a constant battle for The Pencil to juggle the dealers.

I'm sure you would not claim that 6:5 was new, exciting and expansive, yet it has taken hold and is spreading everywhere. I can see this new craps variant as being of interest to a crop of new players who arrive with their fanny-packs and orientation of entertainment. Indeed, I'd like to see some innovative casino try: That new layout described above but minus the Big6/8 and minus the entire WrongSide.

How simple would it be to get a neophyte to play craps with the simple rule: You make a bet: If 7 rolls immediately, you win. If any other number rolls then although you did not win, you have not lost. Your money is now a bet on that Point-Number that you just rolled. If your PointNumber is rolled agin, you will win. If a 7 is rolled, you will lose.

Remove all the Don'ts, remove the Center Bet action,,, and it becomes Beginners Craps. After the half-drunk fanny-pack bedecked tourists learn Beginners Craps, they may eventually move on to Real Craps.

A Dog? Perhaps. Some casinos are Pet Friendly though. They find it profitable.

After reading all the information contained in the patent for No-Craps Craps I see the advantages to the player for No-Craps Craps as follows:
From the players View:
1) player can NOT lose on the come-out roll
2) There IS a dont pass and dont come bets unlike regular Crapless Craps
3) Taking odds reduces HE more than regular Craps
4) ALL the same bets as in regular Craps can still be made and there are now 6 new bets, place 2or3, place 11or12, BUY 2or3, BUY 11or12 and LAY 2or3, LAY 11or12

From the casinos view:
I cant answer that question except
1)Crapless Craps without the don't side has a HIGHER HE than regular craps, so the casino may not want to change their current Crapless Craps.
2)As stated in earlier posts, besides the 6 new bets, nothing else is new for the casino.

Craps players either hate or love Crapless Craps. I love the idea behind No-Craps Craps.
Let time see if it makes its way into casinos.

I bring up that No-Crap Craps has already been approved by the Nevada Gaming Control Board but is yet in a casino. The inventor, author Ethier, Stewart N. is a math professor at the University of Utah and in an email to me has stated that he hoped his book would cause interest in his patent and idea to casinos.

Maybe he will join in this thread and see the comments, both pro and con and all those in between.

Quote: Paigowdan

I have got to say that your short post sounded so very sweet and so "good faith" about the new game article - but the new game design area of the casino business is very cut-throat and rude business, - and I say this with great sadness and experience.

Thank you for your thoughts. English is my second language and I feel I am not a very good writer of it.
I have NO connection with the No-Craps Craps inventor and math professor, only have enjoyed his books and publications.

Let us see if he joins in the thread. He would have nothing to lose and more to gain, and I suppose (just my 2 cent opinion) he does not need or want the money that would come from having his "game" in casinos. I think he invented NO-Craps Craps to "solve" the 3 main problems of regular Crapless Craps.
Have a great day!

I can see Crapless Craps players wanting to play this No-Crap Craps version.
I also agree with Paigowdan that the casinos would not want something similar to the regular game of Craps.

Quote: Paigowdan

Crapless craps only removes one full side of the game of craps completely [the don't pass, the don't come, the lay bets] while slightly expanding the "do" or pass side.

The above quote is not 100% correct.
Only the don't pass and don't come bets are removed in Crapless Craps.
I have made many lay bets in Vegas and in Tunica and have seen many other players make lay bets also.

For those who want to know more about crapless craps you can visit: http://www.dicedealer.com/crapless_craps.htm
They have the most complete rules about CC that I have seen along with an interview from a Table Games Floor Supervisor from the Stratosphere.
At the WoO also: https://wizardofodds.com/craps/appendix4.html#craplesscraps

So my vote would be for No-Crap Craps to replace Crapless Craps.
But, then why would the casino change to a lower HE game than the one that already is in Crapsless Craps?

The inventer does state in his patent that he did solve 3 drawbacks of Crapless Craps.
IN his book, he states that Scarne made mention to Crapless in the 1940s and someone in 1930 had described the Crapless Craps game.just interesting info.

NO CRAPS CRAPS: CRAPLESS CRAPS DONE RIGHT.

Easily one of the best thread titles I've seen on this board!

<Beavis & Butt-head>

Heh heh, hehehe, huh huh, heh heh!

</Beavis & Butt-head>

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

NO CRAPS CRAPS: CRAPLESS CRAPS DONE RIGHT.

Easily one of the best thread titles I've seen on this board!

<Beavis & Butt-head>

Heh heh, hehehe, huh huh, heh heh!

</Beavis & Butt-head>

The thread title came from the actual patent document.

The correct title should have been:
NO-CRAP CRAPS: CRAPLESS CRAPS DONE RIGHT.

I do not know how to change my error!

I have a friend who plays Crapsless Craps in Tunica, Ms. He says those tables on weekends have more players than the regular craps tables. I be visiting Tunica next month, so I can see if that is true and ask players why they rather play Crapless than regular craps.

Quote: nope27

A new No-Craps Craps game. Better than Crapless Craps and as good as regular craps?

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7134660/description.html
explains the No-Crap Craps game that has the SAME HE as regular craps.HERE

The actual patent can be downloaded from the link above from the website for free for those that are interested.
The math behind No-Crap Craps is interesting in the patent.

Stewart N. Ethier has written some very advanced math books and being a Math Professor, obviously knows his "stuff" well!

Quote: 7craps

The actual patent can be downloaded from the link above from the website for free for those that are interested.
The math behind No-Crap Craps is interesting in the patent.

Stewart N. Ethier has written some very advanced math books and being a Math Professor, obviously knows his "stuff" well!

Now I know why Dr. Ethier has this variant as an excessive in his (excellent) book "Doctrine of Chances"! Anyway, pretty interesting variant, I would play it, since it has the same edge as regular craps.

Quote: DrEntropy

Now I know why Dr. Ethier has this variant as an excessive in his (excellent) book "Doctrine of Chances"! Anyway, pretty interesting variant, I would play it, since it has the same edge as regular craps.

It does make for interesting reading.

So a player can NOT lose (crap out) on the come out roll.
Players can bet the pass line or the don't pass. Now 8 point numbers not 10 as with Crapless.
That is different than the normal Crapless Craps where there is no don't side at all.

HA is the same as in regular craps. OK.

Why then would casinos want it if they have to buy new table layouts just to add a few extra bets like place the 2or3, 11or12 etc.

Of course more bets that players make results in more income for the casinos.
Dr. Ethier does not have his game in any casinos.
Is that because he has not tried or he has tried.

After taking a good look at what the new layout would look like....it would not fly!
No pass line bettor would want the words "* Don't Pass and Don't Come: Seven-out after point 11-or12-pays half. "
printed on the table layout.

Quote: 7winner

After taking a good look at what the new layout would look like....it would not fly!
No pass line bettor would want the words "* Don't Pass and Don't Come: Seven-out after point 11-or12-pays half. "
printed on the table layout.

Why would you think that?

Since that payment rule only affects the Wrong bettors, why would a Right bettor care?

Quote: 7winner

After taking a good look at what the new layout would look like....it would not fly!
No pass line bettor would want the words "* Don't Pass and Don't Come: Seven-out after point 11-or12-pays half. "
printed on the table layout.

I Agree. As you know, I dislike crapless craps to no end in all of its forms. The full "dark side" of the game is a viable part of the game, and has got to be there in all of its evil glory. Its absence would make a lot of players unhappy. Keep in mind that part of the Reason that John H. Winn (the guy who invented modern craps around 1911 before non-mechanical intellectual property was patentable) also created the full don't side of the game as a countermeasure to inserting loaded dice into a game, and sevening-out all the time: if you can switch sides, or have a mix of players, there'd be no advantage to putting them in a game. And enough players like the dark side.

That's the thing - it is SO very hard to produce a new (or recycled) casino game that would make players happy, it really is. ANYTHING that would turn off a player is a huge problem. It is next to impossible to knock out a regular blackjack table, or a Pai Gow or Crap table with some new game from casino floor space unless it is something absolutely gonzo.

Gaming industry pros themselves have little idea of what games will make it. The only way is to tell is to get ten tables out, and see if any of them are sent back in the following few months. Throw the shit onto the wall and see if the flies come and stay. If they come, then it's good shit, and that's it.

And sometimes the players abandon a game: Deuces Wild Hold 'em fold 'em once had 50% of the casinos in the LV Valley; now it's a miniscule fraction. Mini-pai gow came and went, and Let it Ride, Carribean Stud, Texas hold 'em Bonus all kind of faded.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Why would you think that?

Since that payment rule only affects the Wrong bettors, why would a Right bettor care?

The word "seven-out" is spelled out on the layout.
As a pass line bettor I would not like to ALWAYS see the word "seven-out"!!!

Quote: Paigowdan

I Agree. As you know, I dislike crapless craps to no end in all of its forms. The full "dark side" of the game is a viable part of the game, and has got to be there in all of its evil glory. Its absence would make a lot of players unhappy. Keep in mind that part of the Reason that John H. Winn (the guy who invented modern craps around 1911 before non-mechanical intellectual property was patentable) also created the full don't side of the game as a countermeasure to inserting loaded dice into a game, and sevening-out all the time: if you can switch sides, or have a mix of players, there'd be no advantage to putting them in a game. And enough players like the dark side.

This version of Crapless Craps has a don't pass and don't come bets unlike all the versions currently of CC.
Same HA as regular craps.

It would make a way better version of the existing Crapless Craps games.
Those new bets to buy, place or lay
2or3
11or12

maybe the casinos would like having a bunch of new bets that players would make.

Quote: 7winner

The word "seven-out" is spelled out on the layout.
As a pass line bettor I would not like to ALWAYS see the word "seven-out"!!!

That's an easy fix. Change it to say "Winning Don't Pass and Don't Come bets on point 11-or-12 pay 1:2"

Maybe I'm wrong.
I said pundits don't know if a game's a winner until it has ten tables installed and doing well.
If this game gets that, then so much the better for it.

The dark side is there - but it's a bit watered down. No come-out win on crap-2 or 3, half pay on 11 or 12. I'd rather win on 2 or 3.

But you never know.

Quote: Paigowdan

The dark side is there - but it's a bit watered down. No come-out win on crap-2 or 3, half pay on 11 or 12. I'd rather win on 2 or 3.

But you never know.

I do agree here.

I was at a birthday party last night that had a casino night party theme.
My Uncle, it was his birthday, wanted to play CrapLess Craps for an hour just so the other players could see what that game is like.
A few were don't players so they did not enjoy the game at all, so my Uncle brought up the rules to the No-Craps Craps version.

We ended the night playing No-Crap Craps and most right way bettors really liked it. Especially the ones that made place bets on every number. $42 instead of $32 across.
I even made all the bets just to play for funny money and it was fun.

But the don't pass and don't come bettors really thought the game ripped-off the don't players.

They did not like the fact the don't player never won on a come out roll with a don't pass or a don't come bet.
And getting paid 50% for a 11 or 12 just made it feel worse.

The table for the last hour was HOT, so I guess the don't players just felt the sting even more. They seemed to enjoy the game more when they were at first winning.

Stewart Ethier, who is a top math professor in Utah, remarked in an email that he has not tried to get the game into any casinos and thought the book (his Doctrine of Chances 2010) would do that.

Paigowdan, maybe you should contact him and buy him out.
It seems to me that half of the Crapless Craps tables in the US with no don't pass bets could be replaced with this game.
I am sure (?) casinos would at least give it a go and don't bettors would play this game where in Crapless Craps they can not.

It is fun to play, I guess because I played it with funny play money!
Sally

ps. The pdf patent has a lot of math and craps formulas in it.
It made for me some enjoyable reading

Maybe. I will look into it. (To discuss with Steve).

Quote: mustangsally

Especially the ones that made place bets on every number. $42 instead of $32 across.

Interesting variation.
Regular Crapless Craps, that sounds funny, is $52 across and $1 to buy the extreme outside numbers (2,3,11,12) that pay 3 to 1 and 6 to 1.
That is the popularity to Crapless, the 3 and 6 to 1 payouts.

Crapless does allow Lay bets in Vegas and Tunica. I have made them.

But now the "do side" only has 2 to 1 payouts. No more 3 and 6 to 1.
I do not like that.
Nothing sweeter than having 5 to 10X odds on the 12 and it hits at 6 to 1.
(10x odds at the Strat)

The don't side only picked up 2 more bets that are 1 to 2.

I do not see it overtaking Crapless Craps.

One No-Vote here for No-Crap Craps

Quote: Paigowdan

No, Odious -
it's the players who decide this, with their hard earned [or stolen money] that is counted as "drop" and "hold" at the casinos who offer these games.

Dan, I just saw this.

OK, I can accept that casino operators would still go for a new Craps game with a low HE like classic Craps as long as drop and hold were 'smoking'. For all I know, classic Craps has a great drop and hold in spite of the players' ability to keep HE below 1%....

I can't help but notice, though, that new game developers generally try to appeal to those who would put their game in with nothing like 1% HE. Of course, they hope that it will suggest strongly that drop and hold are also promising. Currently Free Bet BJ is undergoing review for better hold, right? So what do they do? They are attacking the low HE with new rules.

I hope you get my point: a new Craps game pretty much is going to have to suggest to casino operators that the HE is not so low, thus drop and hold also will improve. Maybe it is just me, but I will not be interested in that game myself.

Update:
I notified Steve, who's a product manager at a major distributor, to review this game as to its merits; we discussed it.
Some points:
1. The fact that Bob Stupak's "Crapless Craps" [the Stratosphere version with no don't side to it] never really took off and got installs, shows the market is fundamentally weak for a craps variant, as opposed to a side bet addition.

2. Unlike EZ Baccarat, Free Bet Blackjack, and EZ Pai Gow, which fixed fundamental deficiencies in those games (commission charges, or "player bankroll risk" to double-down/split, etc.), there really seems to be NO design deficiency in the basic game of Craps, aside from adding a few new side bets. In other words, Craps is not "broken," and crapless crap variants might not, and probably won't, get installs.

3. The ability of this game to incorporate a dark side is IS a saving grace, but the question is, is that saving grace (of having a dark side) strong enough to beat standard craps? That's the $64,000 question.

4. The ability of a come-out 7 winner to not be counter-balanced by a come-out crap number loss is balanced out by the loss of a Yo-11 come-out winner, and the difficulty of "being stuck with" making the harder points of [2 or 3], or [11 or 12], now double-number "points" to be made instead.

5. The game combines the 2 and the 3, and the 11 and the twelve into a single combined "Bottom point" of "2 & 3," and a "Top point" of "11 & 12," with exactly the same odds of having a straight-up point of 4 or 10. In other words, of you throw a come-out 12, it is not a "Crap-12," it is now "Mark the TOP" as the point, - where either an 11 OR A 12 will win that top point" - and with the same odds as a hitting a point of 10. Same with the 'Bottom' point and the combined 2 & 3. Since you can roll a "2 before a 7" to ALSO win the pass line with odds if you came out on a 3, or win the pass line with either an 11 or 12 the odds on of a top point of [11 or 12], the odds are the same as having a point of 4 or 10. WTF.

6. Placing or buying, or Laying the "Top" or "bottom" edge numbers are the same as placing, buying, or laying the 4 or 10, which is 9:5 Place, or 19:20 Buy, or 1:2 Lay, minus the Vig if not as odds.

I just see this game as slightly more appealing to right side bettors and COME bettors with no crap number losses on pass line or come bets, and appealing to dark-side bettors Laying bottom, the 4, 10, and Top, to have 4 very hard to "knock-out" lay bets before a 7.

I think the HE and hold will be about the same, it's a very minor modification, really, if just gets rid of come-out crap losses and adds two point/Box numbers "top" and "bottom." I got to do/see the math on it.

Let's see what Steve says.