cwwbjr
cwwbjr
Joined: May 9, 2014
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 69
August 22nd, 2019 at 10:01:23 AM permalink
How do you edge sort in baccarat? Even if I show you the first card of the current round and you place your bet/ bets ,How do you know the sequence of the next 3, and if/then card 4 ,or 5 and where they will land ( B or P )? Unless you can explain that as cheating , or at least show a mathematical advantage therein , I would agree with Phil's legitimate win. I personally think he used other AP skills that he has acquired and the edge sorting is a decoy to renege.
MDawg
MDawg
Joined: Sep 27, 2018
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 2145
August 22nd, 2019 at 10:01:33 AM permalink
I didn't follow this matter closely but I did hear the Wiz say in one of his recent shows that Ivy did more than just sit back idly, he directed the dealer to turn the cards he (they) were tracking around and put them back into the deck backwards.

I believe the judge hung his hat on that - that Ivy was doing more than merely participating, he was directing.


Stepping back from the argument, which I will agree there are points on both sides, it just gets back to that these poker players can't stop "gambling" and this is part of their downfall. Assuming they are good enough to win consistently at poker, still they can't seem to stay away from games of chance and sports betting. But the difference from regular gamblers is that the successful poker players have too large of a bankroll and feel invincible, which ends up taking them down.

At this point I'm not even sure if Archie Karas ever played an honest game of cards.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
August 22nd, 2019 at 11:54:08 AM permalink
Actualy , I believe the instructions were given in Chinese to the Oriental dealer, which is akin to telling the croupier to not spin the ball, just drop it directly into the slot.
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 9959
August 22nd, 2019 at 12:03:18 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz



Ivey didnt swindle. Borgata knows that and never pursued charges. End of story!



Isnít a lot of what is going on also an attempt to scare into a settlement by both sides? or maybe theyíve passed that point.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 247
  • Posts: 7791
August 22nd, 2019 at 12:10:02 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Isnít a lot of what is going on also an attempt to scare into a settlement by both sides? or maybe theyíve passed that point.



They are past that.

Since Ivey HAS put $10.1 million bond during the appeal, there is no way the Borgata can be frightened they dont receive their money... IF they prevail.

There is still the possibility Ivey prevails and Borgata doesnt get another dime and even has to pay back what they have garnished.

So why do it?

Well, if Ivey has over ten mil in limbo and every asset he still has along with winnings is garnished as well he may be left broke enough that he cant pay his high powered attorneys

I am certain that is the Borgata main motive at this point. Drive him under financially and persevere by default
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 247
  • Posts: 7791
August 22nd, 2019 at 12:22:49 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Actualy , I believe the instructions were given in Chinese to the Oriental dealer, which is akin to telling the croupier to not spin the ball, just drop it directly into the slot.



Hardly!

Even with first card knowledge there was a chance Ivey could lose any given hand. Not the same as dropping a roulette ball directly into a number.

Furthermore the house was aware of the requests and accommodated them. One of those requests was a dealer who spoke mandarin. The Borgata had to know Mandarin was going to be spoken.

Finally, this was a trained dealer. Regardless of any language spoken if she thought there was something untoward she would have alerted her superiors.

I am certain there are plenty of comparisons we can make but dropping a roulette ball into the slotted number isnt one of them
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
unJon
unJon 
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 2362
August 22nd, 2019 at 1:53:25 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

They are past that.

Since Ivey HAS put $10.1 million bond during the appeal, there is no way the Borgata can be frightened they dont receive their money... IF they prevail.

There is still the possibility Ivey prevails and Borgata doesnt get another dime and even has to pay back what they have garnished.

So why do it?

Well, if Ivey has over ten mil in limbo and every asset he still has along with winnings is garnished as well he may be left broke enough that he cant pay his high powered attorneys

I am certain that is the Borgata main motive at this point. Drive him under financially and persevere by default

From what stories I read, Ivy has not posted the bond. Did you read otherwise? If the bond had been posted, I donít think Borgata could have garnished the winnings also.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 247
  • Posts: 7791
August 22nd, 2019 at 2:23:14 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

From what stories I read, Ivy has not posted the bond. Did you read otherwise? If the bond had been posted, I donít think Borgata could have garnished the winnings also.



The later article states as you say that he has avoided bond during appeal

Apparently that is unusual and the bond is normally required

That may be the reason for the confusion
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
  • Threads: 99
  • Posts: 14231
Thanks for this post from:
heatmapmichael99000OnceDear
August 22nd, 2019 at 2:44:18 PM permalink
Quote: cwwbjr

How do you edge sort in baccarat? Even if I show you the first card of the current round and you place your bet/ bets ,How do you know the sequence of the next 3, and if/then card 4 ,or 5 and where they will land ( B or P )? Unless you can explain that as cheating , or at least show a mathematical advantage therein , I would agree with Phil's legitimate win. I personally think he used other AP skills that he has acquired and the edge sorting is a decoy to renege.



Someone will correct me if I'm misremembering this, but.

The cards were somehow non-symmetrical on the backs, from side to side. Might have been how they were die-cut, might have been in the design.

They were shuffled but not turned. So all the backs lined up the same. 6 decks. A shoe has the leading side edge of the next card exposed about 1/4 inch, with a horseshoe-shaped thumb hole that's about 1"x1" in the middle of the side, so some of the design can be seen.

Ivey and Sun made an agreement with Borgata before the game started that they would get to use the same decks through the entire weekend. That their shoe would be locked up when they weren't playing, and the decks would not be changed. This was a superstition of theirs.

The same cards were shuffled and replaced in the shoe each time. The shuffle was very specific, no washing, no spinning.

The first play through the deck, each time an 8 or 9 came up, they had the dealer spin the card for superstition before placing it in the discard rack. So, with them only cutting off 16 cards at the end (standard), by the time they played through the first shoe, the deck was rigged.

Once the 2nd and all subsequent shoes were loaded, they would always know when the first card off the deck was an 8 or 9 because they could see the side edge. You place your only bet in baccarat before the cards are dealt.

Assuming the first card goes to Player, they would bet huge on Player each time they saw an 8 or 9 coming. Since there are 4 good cards for a 9 and 5 good cards for an 8, and a couple more each that don't hurt much, they had an advantage. Bet low on non-8 or 9 first cards (or bet Banker), bet high on Player when an 8 or 9 is coming.

Everything else they might have done (other superstitions, comments, whatever) was distraction designed to mask the card-turning. Reportedly Sun was the one who could see the pattern difference. And she was the one who gave the dealer instructions on their superstitions at the table.

Part of the superstition was that only the dealer would touch the cards. Not touching the cards helped ensure both no bending of the cards (requiring fresh decks) and also gave Borgata a false sense of security in dealing to them.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Gandler
Gandler
Joined: Jan 27, 2014
  • Threads: 31
  • Posts: 1491
August 22nd, 2019 at 4:58:38 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I knew I'd disagree with you eventually about something and that time has come. Can you please tell me which New Jersey gaming regulation he violated?




.


§ 5:12-113. Swindling and cheating; penalties

a. A person is guilty of swindling and cheating if the person purposely or knowingly by any trick or sleight of hand performance or by a fraud or fraudulent scheme, cards, dice or device, for himself or herself or for another, wins or attempts to win money or property or a representative of either or reduces a losing wager or attempts to reduce a losing wager in connection to casino gaming.

b. Consolidation of offenses. Conduct denominated swindling and cheating in this section constitutes a single offense, but each episode or transaction may be the subject of a separate prosecution and conviction. A charge of swindling and cheating may be supported by evidence that it was committed in any manner that would be swindling and cheating under this section, notwithstanding the specification of a different manner in the indictment or accusation, subject only to the power of the court to ensure a fair trial by granting a bill of particulars, discovery, continuance, or other appropriate relief when the conduct of the defense would be prejudiced by a lack of fair notice or by surprise.

c. Grading of swindling and cheating offenses.
(1) Swindling and cheating constitutes a crime of the second degree if the amount involved is $75,000 or more.

(2) Swindling and cheating constitutes a crime of the third degree if the amount involved exceeds $500.

(3) Swindling and cheating constitutes a crime of the fourth degree if the amount involved is at least $200 but not more than $500.

(4) Swindling and cheating constitutes a disorderly persons offense if the amount involved is less than $200.

(5) The amount involved in swindling and cheating shall be determined by the trier of fact. Amounts involved in acts of swindling and cheating committed pursuant to one scheme or course of conduct, whether from the same person or several persons, may be aggregated in determining the grade of the offense.


§ 5:12-113. Swindling and cheating; penalties, N.J. Stat. § 5:12-113 ( This section is current through New Jersey 218th Second Annual Session, L. 2019, c. 194, and J.R. 18 ), available at https://advance-lexis-com.ezproxy1.apus.edu/api/document?collection=statutes-legislation&id=urn:contentItem:5F0Y-BRN1-6F13-051Y-00000-00&context=1516831.

  • Jump to: