Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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October 26th, 2017 at 12:07:44 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If management agreed to allow the dealers to turn the cards, then I'll change my view.

But if they did allow it, why did he need Mandarin speaking dealers?


I can't speculate on that ,but even though they were speaking Mandarin there were supervisors watching, they clearly should have noticed that the dealer was turning the cards.
I Doubt they were saying,ok the floor isn't watching turn the cards,now oh don't do it now because the floor is here.
For the amount of money they were betting the pit boss as well as shift manager,and possibly casino manager would have been watching the game.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
RS
RS
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October 26th, 2017 at 12:10:03 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If management agreed to allow the dealers to turn the cards, then I'll change my view.

But if they did allow it, why did he need Mandarin speaking dealers?


You don't think that table was being watched 24/7 by surveillance and had higher-than-normal attention by the floor people? What was happening was as clear as day.

I suspect the Mandarin speaking dealers was for Sun Li Heu Hung or whatever her name is.....there's a GWAE podcast with her and she can hardly speak English (IMO).
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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Thanks for this post from:
Mosca
October 26th, 2017 at 12:38:31 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If management agreed to allow the dealers to turn the cards, then I'll change my view.

But if they did allow it, why did he need Mandarin speaking dealers?



The reason management allowed the dealers to turn the cards is obvious to me.

Ivey requested playing cards with card-backs that allow one to edge sort. As Dr. Jacobson (Teliot in WoV) noted, edge sorting is an advantage play known to the casino industry for over 100 years and referenced in table game management manuals for decades. I can only believe Crockfords knew edge sorting was an advantage play and that the game Phil requested would allow Sun and him to edge sort.

So, when Phil lied saying he wanted to humor his Chinese companion by allowing her to sense the "energy" of the cards (or whatever), the casino lied saying it agreed to offer that as a fair baccarat game. If Phil lost his money, too bad for Phil. If Phil won lots of casino money, the casino would scream, "he cheated," and would refuse to pay his winnings. Yes, he cheated, and the casino knew that when it allowed the jiggered game. The fact that this dispute went all the way to England's highest court, probably had lots of Crockford executives pissing in their pants because the case wasn't immediately and completely decided in favor of the casino.

Gaming regulators (I assume UK has some) should have asked Crockford who was the ignorant nincompoop who allowed such a game to be offered, since the casino was an involved party from the start in a game all should have known favored the player. IMHO, when the casino lost its money, it went to the court with dirty hands.

As for Mandarin, who cares? Dealers rotate and go on breaks. When dealers rotated, how come suits didn't ask the dealers why they were sometimes rotating cards (assuming that was not approved beforehand and that the dealers would agree to do that without first checking with a suit)? You know with the high bet levels in Ivey's game, surveillance was watching closely, probably with multiple cameras running. He wants Mandarin? Give it. He wants Chinese cards (or other special cards)? Give it. He wants some cards rotated? Give it. Does he want the cards put in the shoe face up? Give it.

Did Ivey have Mandarin speaking dealers at Borgata? NJ baccarat regulations are so detailed they specify which hand the dealer uses to draw cards from the shoe and what exact words are to be spoken when, fer cryin' out loud. And, the regs say it isn't a legal game if it isn't done according to the regulations. Both Crockfords and Borgata knew durn well what they were doing, and it's called: Heads I win; tails you lose.
Wizard
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Wizard 
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October 26th, 2017 at 3:23:18 PM permalink
I've said this before but I would file what Phil did as advantage play as opposed to cheating. He obeyed every rule asked of him.

Nevertheless, I am not surprised every ruling in both jurisdictions have gone against him. I think the courts and gaming authorities are more likely to see things from the casino's point of view. I will admit a bias the other way.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
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October 26th, 2017 at 3:34:35 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

You are confusing him with Steve Forte.


Marcus has written some books. I read "American Roulette" a few years back.

http://www.richardmarcusbooks.com/reviews.php
All around me are familiar faces / Worn out places, worn out faces / Bright and early for their daily races / Going nowhere, going nowhere - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdCLnwIkkps
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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October 26th, 2017 at 3:50:57 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Marcus has written some books. I read "American Roulette" a few years back.

http://www.richardmarcusbooks.com/reviews.php


Yes I have read that book as well as one he wrote on cheating at poker.
In the above example I meant he was confusing him with Steve Forte in regards to the cheating incident in a Borgata hotel room.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
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October 26th, 2017 at 3:51:34 PM permalink
Quote: CyrusV

Every casino I have played in, including Genting establishments in the UK and overseas, all the cards have a border, the rear pattern does not extend to the edge of the card, way too much fuss about potential copy-cats.



There is no such animal as a perfectly cut and centered card. Every card from every manufacturer is subject to edge sorting.
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LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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October 26th, 2017 at 4:02:02 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

There is no such animal as a perfectly cut and centered card. Every card from every manufacturer is subject to edge sorting.



Ummm... I don't think so.

I've played at casinos where the cards were a uniform color on the back side. About one-third of the way down the card was the name of the casino plus the name again (upside down) one-third of the way up from the bottom. Each name about the size of a dime.

I don't see how those cards lend themselves to edge sorting. Nothing -- nothing at all -- is close to the edge.
RS
RS
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October 26th, 2017 at 4:35:01 PM permalink
Nothing needs to be near the edge for a card to be edge sorted. It just doesn't need to be completely symmetrical....and chances are, they aren't all perfectly symmetrical.
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
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October 26th, 2017 at 4:57:58 PM permalink
Borderless cards can still have asymmetries:

https://www.888casino.com/blog/edge-sorting/survey-of-sortable-cards

Although it might be topcarding in that situation if there’s no ink to be seen on the edge? Not sure if topcarding refers to something else.

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