teliot
teliot
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October 26th, 2016 at 9:06:28 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

That's excellent, thanks for the link. If you're inclined, can you ask counsel for permission to publish your opinion as well? If not that's fine too, but it would make for interesting and relevant reading.

Just a word on the original meaning of "edge sorting." As you pointed out above, if the sheet is slightly rotated then the cut will be at a slight diagonal to the pattern. The asymmetry would be slightly different as each sheet passed through the cutter. The "edge sorter" would create a new deck by picking out cards from different sheets so that each rank could be distinguished based on the asymmetry of the cut for that card on that sheet. The sorter created a marked deck based on selecting cards from different sheets.

This method of creating sorted decks is very old and therefore the knowledge that asymmetries in the card backs can be used to beat casino games is very old. Why are cards created with symmetric designs to begin with if not for the knowledge that asymmetries can be used to defeat games?
Poetry website: www.totallydisconnected.com
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 26th, 2016 at 11:57:24 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Just a word on the original meaning of "edge sorting." As you pointed out above, if the sheet is slightly rotated then the cut will be at a slight diagonal to the pattern. The asymmetry would be slightly different as each sheet passed through the cutter. The "edge sorter" would create a new deck by picking out cards from different sheets so that each rank could be distinguished based on the asymmetry of the cut for that card on that sheet. The sorter created a marked deck based on selecting cards from different sheets.

This method of creating sorted decks is very old and therefore the knowledge that asymmetries in the card backs can be used to beat casino games is very old. Why are cards created with symmetric designs to begin with if not for the knowledge that asymmetries can be used to defeat games?

I didn't know that history, thanks. Intentionally constructing a deck of cards with different asymmetries that correspond to card ranks would seem trivially to fall under the language "it shall be unlawful knowingly to use or possess any marked cards." I know that's not what Sun/Ivey did. In fact, it seems they took advantage of the fact that the asymmetries were constant out of the box, which is what you would expect from a deck that was *not* tampered with by the manufacturer other than the inherent machining asymmetry. Ironically, if Ivey was playing with a "pre-edge-sorted" deck like you describe, his attempt to edge sort based on high/low cards (6-9 vs. 0-5) may not have worked.

Now I'm wondering if a high-resolution camera could detect minute differences on the backs of cards and correlate them with card faces when those cards are exposed. In other words, are typical casino cards already effectively marked with respect to a system with super-human visual acuity?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
teliot
teliot
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October 26th, 2016 at 12:27:22 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Now I'm wondering if a high-resolution camera could detect minute differences on the backs of cards and correlate them with card faces when those cards are exposed. In other words, are typical casino cards already effectively marked with respect to a system with super-human visual acuity?

Yes, this has happened multiple times. Depending on how the sheet is laid out and the cuts are made, it is easy to imagine how a sloppy cut might allow you to identify each card by rank.
Poetry website: www.totallydisconnected.com
Wizard
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Wizard 
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October 26th, 2016 at 1:01:50 PM permalink
I can see both sides of this. I still say that Gemaco bears some culpability for making flawed cards and the Borgata for for buying and using them.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Joeshlabotnik
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October 26th, 2016 at 1:35:11 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I can see both sides of this. I still say that Gemaco bears some culpability for making flawed cards and the Borgata for for buying and using them.



I also wonder if the dealer was in on the scheme. If I was dealing blackjack and a player asked me to draw a smiley face on the back of all the Aces or something, I would make SURE that every supervisor knew that I was doing that. The baccarat dealer at the Borg might have been under some general instruction to humor the high rollers (and, apparently, might have been irradiated by the feminine charms of Ivey's playing partner), but would he just fiddle with the cards based on Ivey's request, when doing so might get him fired, or worse, dragged outside and dipped in the ocean, which, given the local pollution levels, would have been instantly fatal?

The inside job aspect could also have been one level higher, for instance if the dealer says, "He wants me to do such and such, is that really OK?" and the floorman says, "Sure, no problem, do as he asks," nudge nudge, wink wink.
teliot
teliot
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October 26th, 2016 at 1:36:39 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

I also wonder if the dealer was in on the scheme.

No. Take this response for what it's worth. I was Ivey's expert in the Crockford's case.
Poetry website: www.totallydisconnected.com
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 26th, 2016 at 2:04:45 PM permalink
Does anyone think the AC casinos Don Johnson AP'ed will go after him after this verdict? He's admitted having his cohorts at the tables ST and HC during his loss rebate blitz.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 26th, 2016 at 2:16:46 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Does anyone think the AC casinos Don Johnson AP'ed will go after him after this verdict? He's admitted having his cohorts at the tables ST and HC during his loss rebate blitz.

Not likely. From what I recall, Don Johnson derived his edge from the too-large loss rebate, not from manipulating any aspect of the games themselves. I don't think the gaming regs have anything to say about what is effectively a poorly-designed personalized marketing promotion.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 26th, 2016 at 2:42:51 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Not likely. From what I recall, Don Johnson derived his edge from the too-large loss rebate, not from manipulating any aspect of the games themselves. I don't think the gaming regs have anything to say about what is effectively a poorly-designed personalized marketing promotion.


He said in an interview that the rebates didn't give him his edge. It was the "other" things along with them that did.

I'm not saying that the casinos will go after the money. Just curious if anyone thinks they'll try.

https://youtu.be/hJpnnaksXNM

https://www.888casino.com/blog/burning-down-the-house-the-amazing-story-of-don-johnson/

"In fact, things got hopping enough that the pit-boss failed to recognize Johnson card-counting, the guy next to him catching glimpses of the dealerís hole cards and another collaborator sequencing the deck, telling Johnson when strong cards would be coming his way. Besides serving as distractions, the good-looking girls made small bets and ate cards when the count got bad."
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 26th, 2016 at 3:20:51 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

"In fact, things got hopping enough that the pit-boss failed to recognize Johnson card-counting, the guy next to him catching glimpses of the dealerís hole cards and another collaborator sequencing the deck, telling Johnson when strong cards would be coming his way. Besides serving as distractions, the good-looking girls made small bets and ate cards when the count got bad."

None of those acts, however, would qualify as intentional card marking based on how I interpret the judge's ruling. The closest would be eating the small cards with small bets, but even that is not something that's "using cards they caused to be maneuvered in order to identify their value only to them." It's settled law in New Jersey that counting is not unlawful.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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