MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 25th, 2016 at 7:00:26 PM permalink
Quote: RS

I've never tried it, but I'd think "easily" is quite a stretch to do this. Which also begs the question -- when the cards are purchased and taken out of the packs, are they cut so that they all have "big diamonds" on one side and "half diamonds" on the other? Or are the edges random?

I'd assume the manufacturing process cuts the large sheets and forms the deck without turning the cards, but I could be wrong. Assuming the blades are appropriately spaced, a slight shift of, say, 0.5mm in the cutting process should persist across all the cards equivalently.

This is not Gemaco's factory but I'd assume they'd use similar equipment:
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
DrawingDead
DrawingDead
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October 25th, 2016 at 7:15:31 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I'd assume the manufacturing process cuts the large sheets and forms the deck without turning the cards, but I could be wrong. Assuming the blades are appropriately spaced, a slight shift of, say, 0.5mm in the cutting process should persist across all the cards equivalently.

This is not Gemaco's factory but I'd assume they'd use similar equipment:

Perhaps off topic, though not 100% sure...

I have a (now framed) sheet of a deck of cards on my wall (from an old time casino that no longer exists). The whole deck is a single sheet, though with perforations (partly cut lines) where it'd separate into individual cards. I got it from someone who has been in Las Vegas for a zillion years, after his wife put her foot down about her desire for parts of their home no longer looking like a gambling museum. And I don't know how or why it came to be that way before it came to him from the casino.

FWIW. Which I'm guessing is perhaps nothing too relevant for this purpose, but there you have it. And there I have it, now on my wall, instead of his after originally being made for an iconic casino, since I have no wife putting down any feet or implosion pending that I know about.
"I'm against stuff like crack and math" --AxelWolf
Keyser
Keyser
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October 25th, 2016 at 7:44:38 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Are you saying that you can tell what the front of a card is by looking at the back?



Put it this way, each card is sorted by it's symmetry. I have a much higher probability of knowing what the next card is based on the visible information than what probability would predict.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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October 25th, 2016 at 8:33:34 PM permalink
The fact the casino allowed an employee to speak in a language the casino didn't have a translator on hand I place some blame. The casino should have never dealt the deck or allow the funny business. If a player asked for the dealer to deal his upcard first in bj before a bet was placed, the casino would be cheating though benefitting the player.

If Ivey walked around the casino handing $5,000 chips to everyone, instead of cashing, would he have to repay the $9,000,000? Seems possible if they paid out the money, they would have had problems getting it back and screwed him by denying payment.

This is really hard to understand the bets were made and paid, then the casino didn't pay. Ivey knew more about the game then the casino whose job is to know more. We're just not going to get this, because Ivey didn't hold a gun to their head. All they did was ask to which the casino complied.

What has the casino learned? Nothing. I think he cannot have a fair trial in new jersey because the courts assume a casino has a right to be the cheater(right to be ensured a profit) then the courts look for an excuse. It's a stretch and there isn't any denying it. You almost have to start assuming the judges have undisclosed conflicts of interest or bias. This is third world kangaroo court bs.
I am a robot.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 25th, 2016 at 9:30:53 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Put it this way, each card is sorted by it's symmetry. I have a much higher probability of knowing what the next card is based on the visible information than what probability would predict.

Are you suggesting that cards somehow magically sort themselves? Are you claiming that with a proper casino shuffle, you can predict card values coming out of a baccarat shoe far better than random chance would dictate?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 25th, 2016 at 11:29:47 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

I think ANY business, casinos included, should be able to refuse service to any customer or customers it deems as detrimental to its operations, for any reason or no reason at all. Casinos are in business to make money. Why wouldn't they want to exclude the rare (AP) customer who costs them money? To put it another way,what makes the AP think he has a right to gamble in a privately owned casino?

Because it's a slippery slope. Next thing you know they will only let people who lose 50% in the door. Perhaps they won't let anyone play who knows or associates with a smart gambler.

Casinos are not the same as other businesses, they are unique and that's why the strict regulations. We need to stop comparing them to anything and everything else.

It's a privilege to own and run a casino. It's illegal to gamble or offer it unless there's a licence involved. In reality compared to something like fast food and convince stores there's very little competition.
Very few people can obtain a licence, also allowing them to pick and choose who's allowed to gamble gives them too much power.
It's the people(US citizens) that allow the casinos to exist in the first place, everyone should have a say.

If they want to open up gambling licenses to the average private person (like running a food truck)then I would agree it should be able to treat it like a private club. Are all casinos in the US privately owed? I thought there were some owed by the states?

They should have to put up giant signs saying "SMART GAMBLERS NOT WELCOME" "NO CARD COUNTING" "GAINING AN ADVANTAGE WILL RESULT IN EXCLUSION"
They shouldn't be able to advertise "Winners wanted" We love winners" etc etc
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
RS
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October 25th, 2016 at 11:53:07 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Are you suggesting that cards somehow magically sort themselves? Are you claiming that with a proper casino shuffle, you can predict card values coming out of a baccarat shoe far better than random chance would dictate?



I couldn't do it in my head, but if given pen & paper and time, I absolutely could. Although, that depends on what you mean by "far better than random". You can absolutely beat random with a sortable deck, the sort is just not what you'd expect. I'm assuming a no-turn shuffle. (Although shuffles with turns would still be theoretically beatable, but that's essentially mixing shuffle tracking with edge-sorting which, I'd have to imagine, would be difficult.)
teliot
teliot
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October 26th, 2016 at 8:00:46 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I don't have access to Eliot's testimony, and I'm also aware that edge sorting / playing the turn is an old move, but the crux of the casino's liability would seem to be the word "knowingly" in the law you cited. Did the casino actually know they were being edge-sorted? I'd think they wouldn't have let Ivey play if they did...

Here you go:

https://apheat.net/2014/10/22/a-few-historical-references-to-edge-sorting/
Poetry website: www.totallydisconnected.com
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 26th, 2016 at 8:38:28 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Quote: MathExtremist

Are you suggesting that cards somehow magically sort themselves? Are you claiming that with a proper casino shuffle, you can predict card values coming out of a baccarat shoe far better than random chance would dictate?



I couldn't do it in my head, but if given pen & paper and time, I absolutely could. Although, that depends on what you mean by "far better than random". You can absolutely beat random with a sortable deck, the sort is just not what you'd expect. I'm assuming a no-turn shuffle. (Although shuffles with turns would still be theoretically beatable, but that's essentially mixing shuffle tracking with edge-sorting which, I'd have to imagine, would be difficult.)

Well, I was referring to the suggestion that somehow the cards sorted themselves by symmetry. I can't tell if that's what he meant, or if somehow *he* was sorting cards by symmetry. I don't know if anyone can detect asymmetry on the order of 100 microns (=1/10 mm), and that's almost surely the level of distinction that would be present across a deck of cards. Moreover, it's not true that such asymmetry would be useful anyway. Here's a photo of an uncut Gemaco sheet, the manufacturer used at the Borgata:

If the sheet were slightly rotated going into the cutter, there would be a different amount of asymmetry between the cards at the top vs. at the bottom. But there's no consistency in ranks going from top to bottom so that won't help. In fact, the sheet itself is symmetrical around the center so -- without more information -- knowledge that the deck is slightly miscut can't help at all.

If he was talking about shuffle tracking or some other non-manipulative technique, that wasn't clear to me. I have no idea what he meant by "each card is sorted by its symmetry."
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 26th, 2016 at 8:43:34 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Here you go:

https://apheat.net/2014/10/22/a-few-historical-references-to-edge-sorting/

That's excellent, thanks for the link. If you're inclined, can you ask counsel for permission to publish your opinion as well? If not that's fine too, but it would make for interesting and relevant reading.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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