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gordonm888
gordonm888
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May 7th, 2016 at 6:57:43 AM permalink
Okay, I have no first-hand direct knowledge here, so I cannot assert that the following is true. But, this is what I have been told from a source:

I have been told that Shufflemaster has a variant of their automated shuffler machines that is marketed only to unregulated casinos -such as Indian-reservation casinos and perhaps certain foreign countries. These shuffler machines have a switch that changes the house edge in the game by a large amount - I heard it referred to as "Beast Mode." Reportedly, this feature is marketed to Indian casinos as an "anti-AP" feature. If the pit boss identifies a player as an Advantage Player, they flip the switch and the players will lose a disproportionate amount of the hands - until the AP leaves, when the shuffler machine is switched out of Beast Mode and back into normal mode.

Here are some specifics of what I was told:

In Mississippi Stud, the first three cards out of the shuffler machine are the three face-down common cards. In Beast Mode, these 3 cards will be unpaired and have an unusually high frequency of cards with low ranks. Players will still occasionally be dealt a pair and win (or push) on a hand, but on unpaired hands they are at a great disadvantage because the board keeps turning up 2's and 3's, etc.

In 4 Card Poker, the automated shuffler provides a series of 5-card packets. These 5-card packets are arranged on separate shelves in the automated shuffler. The cards are identified with image-ID software, and other software identfies the "Poker hand value" of each of the 5-card packets. The earliest packets out of the shuffler are the player hands, and the 6-card dealer hand is formed from the last two 5-card packets. When switched into Beast mode, the 5-card packets are arranged to come out of the machine this way: packets with the lowest poker hand value are selected to be first to emerge and the packets with the highest poker hand value tend to be the last to be dealt. Thus, the dealer wins and the players lose. A tell-tale is that the dealer's winning 4-card hand usually does not involve the face-up card -it usually is formed from four of the five face down cards that are part of a single five-card packet.

My source insisted that that Beast mode is only used (in the casino in question) to repel or 'back off' known or suspected Advantage Players. My source claimed this is completely legal - that the use of such machines breaks no regulations because Indian casinos are unregulated and because the Indian casinos in question never actually represent to the public that their games are fair or that cards are dealt without any prior knowledge of their content.

Again, I have no way of verifying that my source is reliable and that this account (or rumor) is true. If it is not true, I would appreciate it if a representative of Shufflemaster or the casino industry would clear the air on this subject.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gary55
gary55
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:12:59 AM permalink
Very Doubtful.
When the House Always has edge there is no real reason to cheat.
Anyone playing enough will run into that edge.
IMO its in the best interest of the house to keep the game honest.
gordonm888
gordonm888
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May 7th, 2016 at 7:59:10 AM permalink
That is your opinion only. The game protection industry (take, for example, Eliot Richardson) has preached that the house doesn't always have an edge against advantage players. And my source says that this is only done against a table with a known or suspected advantage player and that the action breaks no laws and violates no regulations.

If the game is honest, then the representatives of the Indian-casino industry should certainly be willing to state categorically to the public that the game is honest. Its in their best interest to say this, if it is true. But, to the best of my knowledge, they have never said it. And someone has told me the opposite is true. Again, I invite representatives of the industry who have authoritative knowledge on Indian reservation games to confirm or deny this account.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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May 7th, 2016 at 8:30:26 AM permalink
I suspected dem Injuns was cheating me!

Seriously, I hope to see some good discussion in your thread. Checkable facts are good.

There really were a couple times at BJ that seemed awfully far out on the edges of possible distributions of results, for extended periods. I've had a Pit suit come change one of the stacks of decks in the shuffle machine during my play. Which obviously gives him access to the shuffler physically, and I proceeded to lose my a$$ for hours then. I should have changed tables, Duh! But I have no facts. Someone recently mentioned a possibility of having too many 10s/faces in groups so that at least one of those groups should be beyond the deck penetration for BJ. But other than something like that, or starting with other than 'normal decks' i.e. 10's/faces/aces missing, I can't see how to manipulate the cards via the shuffler, at least for BJ. Too much weird play at table for shuffler to predict ;-)

Best of luck.
Last edited by: TwoFeathersATL on May 7, 2016
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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May 7th, 2016 at 9:00:35 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

That is your opinion only. The game protection industry (take, for example, Eliot Richardson) has preached that the house doesn't always have an edge against advantage players. And my source says that this is only done against a table with a known or suspected advantage player and that the action breaks no laws and violates no regulations.

If the game is honest, then the representatives of the Indian-casino industry should certainly be willing to state categorically to the public that the game is honest. Its in their best interest to say this, if it is true. But, to the best of my knowledge, they have never said it. And someone has told me the opposite is true. Again, I invite representatives of the industry who have authoritative knowledge on Indian reservation games to confirm or deny this account.

Have you actually asked these questions of a representative of any tribal casino? If they denied your accusations, would you believe them?

And why is your source credible? What bona fides does he or she have?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Zcore13
Zcore13
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May 7th, 2016 at 9:20:51 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Okay, I have no first-hand direct knowledge here, so I cannot assert that the following is true. But, this is what I have been told from a source:

I have been told that Shufflemaster has a variant of their automated shuffler machines that is marketed only to unregulated casinos -such as Indian-reservation casinos and perhaps certain foreign countries. These shuffler machines have a switch that changes the house edge in the game by a large amount - I heard it referred to as "Beast Mode." Reportedly, this feature is marketed to Indian casinos as an "anti-AP" feature. If the pit boss identifies a player as an Advantage Player, they flip the switch and the players will lose a disproportionate amount of the hands - until the AP leaves, when the shuffler machine is switched out of Beast Mode and back into normal mode.

Here are some specifics of what I was told:

In Mississippi Stud, the first three cards out of the shuffler machine are the three face-down common cards. In Beast Mode, these 3 cards will be unpaired and have an unusually high frequency of cards with low ranks. Players will still occasionally be dealt a pair and win (or push) on a hand, but on unpaired hands they are at a great disadvantage because the board keeps turning up 2's and 3's, etc.

In 4 Card Poker, the automated shuffler provides a series of 5-card packets. These 5-card packets are arranged on separate shelves in the automated shuffler. The cards are identified with image-ID software, and other software identfies the "Poker hand value" of each of the 5-card packets. The earliest packets out of the shuffler are the player hands, and the 6-card dealer hand is formed from the last two 5-card packets. When switched into Beast mode, the 5-card packets are arranged to come out of the machine this way: packets with the lowest poker hand value are selected to be first to emerge and the packets with the highest poker hand value tend to be the last to be dealt. Thus, the dealer wins and the players lose. A tell-tale is that the dealer's winning 4-card hand usually does not involve the face-up card -it usually is formed from four of the five face down cards that are part of a single five-card packet.

My source insisted that that Beast mode is only used (in the casino in question) to repel or 'back off' known or suspected Advantage Players. My source claimed this is completely legal - that the use of such machines breaks no regulations because Indian casinos are unregulated and because the Indian casinos in question never actually represent to the public that their games are fair or that cards are dealt without any prior knowledge of their content.

Again, I have no way of verifying that my source is reliable and that this account (or rumor) is true. If it is not true, I would appreciate it if a representative of Shufflemaster or the casino industry would clear the air on this subject.



I have first hand knowledge that not only are these accusations silly, they are not even possible. Indian casinos are not unregulated as you accuse. The one I work at is more regulated than a Las Vegas Casino. Also, Shuffle Master products are certified by GLI to function fairly. No chance on each they would modify them to cheat for a casino.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:42:55 AM permalink
Gordon just curious, you didn't post for 9 months and now are back pairing very different topics the you posted before , they all seem to be house integrity questions now
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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May 7th, 2016 at 10:58:24 AM permalink
I do not work for SHFL, but I am a product vendor to them for over 2 years now. In my experience, this is absolutely not happening. They make their money guaranteeing the integrity of their shufflers and have specific lockout and security mechanisms in place to prevent this kind of manipulation or tampering. They also have their equipment and software certified and sealed by 3rd parties.

Is what you suggest possible? Yes, I suppose. Is it happening? Absolutely not. A single case of this would damage their entire division beyond repair, and they have 10s of thousands of high dollar rentals and sales in the marketplace. They would never jeopardize their legitimate business with a cheating mode available. I think it's just someone's way of justifying bad variance.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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May 7th, 2016 at 11:02:47 AM permalink
Bbb is pretty spot on. Once word would get out it existed it would damage their integrity across the board and it inevitably would get out
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
gordonm888
gordonm888
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May 7th, 2016 at 11:07:37 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13



I have first hand knowledge that not only are these accusations silly, they are not even possible. Indian casinos are not unregulated as you accuse. The one I work at is more regulated than a Las Vegas Casino. Also, Shuffle Master products are certified by GLI to function fairly. No chance on each they would modify them to cheat for a casino.

ZCore13



Thanks for your input. I am really trying to understand this subject. What entity regulates your casino? The Casino in question from my source operates on Cherokee nation land in North Carolina (there are two such casinos). Might there be state-to-state differences regarding regulation?

Your reference to GLI certification of Shuffle Master products is important. I will try to do more research on pubicly- available information and statements regarding Shuffle Master products and their certification by GLI. I really don't want to disparage Shuffle Master or anyone else. However, it is also clear that products from the same vendor that are intended for different markets may undergo different certification processes -or no certification at all -depending upon the specific requirements of the market. For instance, shufflers intended for European casinos may need to be submitted to an EU lab for certification. And it is not yet clear to me what kind of certification is required by the Cherokee nation. I have been told by someone that there is no regulation, but I don't know that that is true and so I am asking questions.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

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