Local UTH is broken and I want to know how to exploit

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it is not illegal, for the player. But for the dealer to know that certain cards are marked, and to allow it for advantage, is a fire-able offense; now, to further participate in it for profit then it really crosses the line.

Such things are often and naturally viewed as an opportunity for freebies to be taken, with zero consideration or repercussions, which may be the case for the players, less so for a dealer to float down these roads. (For that matter, I know that if a back entrance to an electronics store were open, and free I-phones were there for the easy taking, they would be naturally disappear, with many viewing it as just an opportunity for a little good fortune. This is how exactly and often naturally how people think.) But there is an attitude of it being somehow more okay against a casino business, but less so for another type of business when among a lot of gamblers. This is present, too, in spades.

When we get to traveling down this opportunity/freebie path when it presents itself, (and it is so easy to do), any sort of attention or counter-view to its real nature is often met with annoyance, a bubble bursting, a disruption of the "some gravy for me" happy views or aspects on it. As I mentioned, I had a office drone friend from a while back once stumble across an AP opportunity of sorts involving checks that looked real risk-free and easy to do. He told no one, almost got away with it, felt that it was just fine, a blessing as well as the fruits of his astuteness and ingenuity. Up to a point. I'm sure the guy (or gal) who tapped my bank account feels the same way: "Jim, this is BRILLIANT, it's FREE MONEY! YESSS! I'm so awesome and brilliant with this!...." Many people just think this way when presented with an opportunity.

I've seen nothing from the OP insinuating that he'd plan on dealing the game to cohorts and colluding in the game to make a profit. It looks like he's trying to figure out a way to play it himself, but doesn't know what the strategy would be, nor the value of playing it. You've already answered my question (thank you) -- "Why/how would a player get arrested for playing the game?"

I'm not sure what the rest of your post is about, other than you're alluding to it being illegal, by saying "that is wrong to do....and these other things are wrong to do....and people got arrested doing those 'wrong to do'". I don't care about the guy who made/bought/whatever fake chips (not AP btw), or the guy who withdrew your money from your bank account, as neither have a thing to do with this.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it is not illegal, for the player. But for the dealer to know that certain cards are marked, and to allow it for advantage, is a fire-able offense; now, to further participate in it for profit then it really crosses the line.

Please show physical proof of where you're citing this from. It is the responsibility for the employee to advise their superiors. Beyond that, they can contact the gaming commission.

You make it seem like they're liable for continuing to do their job even after they've advised others of the issue. This is not the case. The liability lays with the links further up the chain, not the dealing staff.

Dan, that sucks. I can see why you wrote the post you did in anger. I have empathy for you. Some trashbag used my information for Tax Season, stole $1,000 from me and I was pissed off. My family kept telling me to file earlier, due to Tax thieves running around, but I continued to naively say "I have my Tax Information, I'm good."

I went to my tax preparer on April 12th. My tax preparer called me on the very next day. I immediately knew something was wrong. There was no way they were calling me to tell me that my tax refund was ready in one day. My tax preparer told me the horrifying news.

Someone had stolen my information and filed under my name, so when I legitimately filed, the IRS sent a notice that "I" had already filed. I was shocked, flabbergasted, and pissed off. I signed paperwork stating that I was a victim of Identity Theft.

It took me 6 months to get that money back. I remembered thinking "Thank God I am not absolutely destitute for that money or I would be in some real trouble." So, I have been in the same boat as you.

Quote: Paigowdan

Correct. If a dealer or casino employee enables and uses marked card info with a player, that's different.

However, if a player notices the existence of marked cards and doesn't immediately report it to the pit boss, he's not committing a crime, even if he's employed as a dealer at a different casino.

And I'm not pleased with what happened with Ivey, but it IS different. With Ivey, he was creating a situation by asking the house to turn all the 7's, 8's and 9's around. It is, of course, bullshit that the house would grant such a suspect request, but maybe they knew it was a Welsh freeroll -- either Ivey loses, or he wins and they refuse to pay.

Either way, no player is marking the cards in this scenario. The dealer is not involved, either.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it is not illegal, for the player. But for the dealer to know that certain cards are marked, and to allow it for advantage, is a fire-able offense; now, to further participate in it for profit then it really crosses the line.

If the OP became the player and if playing at an employer's sister property is acceptable, then he is taking advantage purely as a knowlegeable player. it would be similar if he knew that certain fellow dealers are careless hole card revealers.

It's not at all like the shop with its door open. The table is a place for a game. ANYTHING within the rules is fair play. Those ARE the rules of engagement.
If the house chooses to deal marked cards, or if they choose to fill the shoe wrong way and deal face up, then there is ABSOLUTELY NO legal or moral obligation to not take advantage of that.

All that said: The OP is displaying disloyalty to his employer and that may well be a firing offense. If he HAS already formally reported the issue, then that serves two puposes: It confirms that the house CHOOSES to let this situation persist and so tacitly accepts that risk. But it also makes the OP dead easy to identify.

Quote: Dodsferd

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it is not illegal, for the player. But for the dealer to know that certain cards are marked, and to allow it for advantage, is a fire-able offense; now, to further participate in it for profit then it really crosses the line.

Please show physical proof of where you're citing this from. It is the responsibility for the employee to advise their superiors. Beyond that, they can contact the gaming commission.

Yes, they can do both (well, work with the floor first.) It's when they either do nothing, or find and use some advantage presented that there's a serious issue.

Quote: Dods

You make it seem like they're liable for continuing to do their job even after they've advised others of the issue. This is not the case. The liability lays with the links further up the chain, not the dealing staff.

No I don't. I was clear that Dealers are liable if they don't report issues and continue to run games. Floormen have to trust their charges.

Quote: Elastoid

However, if a player notices the existence of marked cards and doesn't immediately report it to the pit boss, he's not committing a crime, even if he's employed as a dealer at a different casino.

Think about a casino employee who either tolerates marked cards or participates in marked cards at a different joint.

Quote: Eslastoid

And I'm not pleased with what happened with Ivey, but it IS different. With Ivey, he was creating a situation by asking the house to turn all the 7's, 8's and 9's around. It is, of course, bullshit that the house would grant such a suspect request, but maybe they knew it was a Welsh freeroll -- either Ivey loses, or he wins and they refuse to pay.

Ivey seems to be a bit of a character. I don't think it was a Welsh freeroll, I think it was more like patronizing a celeb and letting some sloppy crap slide.

Quote: Elastoid

Either way, no player is marking the cards in this scenario. The dealer is not involved, either.

Keep in mind that you don't have to mark cards to make use of marked cards. If a casino employee is at a table and knows what that something funky is going down, it is not a good situation. I knew floormen who after work, would count down games at other places for some needed extra cash. One got pulled by his collar and caught a warning break, being told: "Do this again here, and you get reported to your operator and to gaming with the proving surveillance tape. Are you an idiot??!!" [He was].

If Dan posts something, and 100 people are genuinely offended, why is he not suspended/banned?

So sick of one person going blatantly against the obvious and widely accepted facts just pissing everyone off and yet nothing ever happens or gets done about it.

1) Casinos are unfair.
2) Casinos only let losers play.
3) Using your brain is a tress-passable offence in a casino.
4) It's not illegal to play to the best of your ability if a casino game/dealer/cards are not protected by said casino.

These aren't hunches, guesses, or just my personal experience... Though I personally have countless examples of each one of these above. These are shared and known widely as fact. For someone to constantly be ignorant and disagree with facts is something most everyone on these forums take offence to.

It's like my quoting Dan EVERY POST HE EVER MAKES, and saying "The math on your new game isn't right." Technically, I'm not breaking any rules, but if everyone did that for EVERY post he ever makes from here on out, I'd bet it would sure piss some people off eventually (and especially Dan). He's doing the exact same thing by spamming all of us with his narrow minded viewpoints that are against widely accepted facts.

I read the first few posts on this thread and thought the thread was interesting. Then after reading just one or two of Dan's typical BS I literally STOPPED reading the thread and am frustrated that I can't enjoy normal conversation about a random opportunity that'll be gone soon enough. This is a unique situation from which we can all learn things from for the future and yet Dan has to come in here and stifle the conversation with his pro-casino babble.

You ruined this thread for me, and for that I take offence, Dan.

Quote: Kentry

Dan, that sucks. I can see why you wrote the post you did in anger. I have empathy for you. Some trashbag used my information for Tax Season, stole $1,000 from me and I was pissed off. My family kept telling me to file earlier, due to Tax thieves running around, but I continued to naively say "I have my Tax Information, I'm good."

I went to my tax preparer on April 12th. My tax preparer called me on the very next day. I immediately knew something was wrong. There was no way they were calling me to tell me that my tax refund was ready in one day. My tax preparer told me the horrifying news.

Someone had stolen my information and filed under my name, so when I legitimately filed, the IRS sent a notice that "I" had already filed. I was shocked, flabbergasted, and pissed off. I signed paperwork stating that I was a victim of Identity Theft.

It took me 6 months to get that money back. I remembered thinking "Thank God I am not absolutely destitute for that money or I would be in some real trouble." So, I have been in the same boat as you.

I went to the bank today and submitted the affidavit form with my wife, and was told I should be good; it'll take a number of business days to get it back. Faster than government work at the IRS....I was also told that they had a flurry of incidents, and that there's an increase of them around this time of year. It seems to be an annual epidemic for the Advent season or something. A special "Merry Christmas for you - I'm getting MY presents" kind of thing. Now when I read about some data breach in the news at Target or Best Buy or something, I no longer think "Well, I'm safe, that's not me!" because yes it is me. I'm going to get LifeLock or something. Another bank manager said this is serious stuff, some are filing criminal complaints, and those caught won't have an easy time. Bank wire fraud is a felony.

What?

Quote: Romes

If Dan posts something, and 100 people are genuinely offended, why is he not suspended/banned?

So sick of one person going blatantly against the obvious and widely accepted facts just pissing everyone off and yet nothing ever happens or gets done about it.

1) Casinos are unfair.
2) Casinos only let losers play.
3) Using your brain is a tress-passable offence in a casino.
4) It's not illegal to play to the best of your ability if a casino game/dealer/cards are not protected by said casino.

Excuse me for saying this, but I say none of the above are true, and that this is a difference of opinion, which is fine. God forbid I don't think a gambling forum should be a training camp for Casino scammers and haters. If you think I should be banned for not towing the "casinos are unfair/casinos let losers play/they're the Blue Meanies" (as you post here above), fine. Forgive me for not rolling logs here.

Quote: Romes

These aren't hunches, guesses, or just my personal experience...

Yes they are, they're your personal opinions, even if most happen to agree with you.
If casinos are unfair, they'd be empty. They're regulated business, are consistently strict about fair gaming, gives tons of breaks and benefits of the doubt for a ton of malarkey claimers, and have next to an impossible job satisfying and pleasing the suspicious gamblers, or getting any sort of a positive rep for supplying the gambling services we seek. A truly thankless job.

Quote: Romes

Though I personally have countless examples of each one of these above. These are shared and known widely as fact. For someone to constantly be ignorant and disagree with facts is something most everyone on these forums take offence to.

It's like my quoting Dan EVERY POST HE EVER MAKES, and saying "The math on your new game isn't right."

Really? If the math is right, I'll say it's right; if it is wrong, I'll say it's wrong. If you disagree with my opinions, I'm fine with that, so you be fine with that, too.

Quote: Romes

Technically, I'm not breaking any rules, but if everyone did that for EVERY post he ever makes from here on out, I'd bet it would sure piss some people off eventually (and especially Dan). He's doing the exact same thing by spamming all of us with his narrow minded viewpoints that are against widely accepted facts.

The "casino as evil enemy" view is so thick, we don't notice that that is the spam, as it is basically the very air we seek to breathe here.

Quote: Romes

I read the first few posts on this thread and thought the thread was interesting. Then after reading just one or two of Dan's typical BS I literally STOPPED reading the thread and am frustrated that I can't enjoy normal conversation about a random opportunity that'll be gone soon enough. This is a unique situation from which we can all learn things from for the future and yet Dan has to come in here and stifle the conversation with his pro-casino babble.

I think we can learn that it takes two to tango, and that for gamblers, it is the gambler with the gambling hall or casino, not the gambler alone without the casino or gambling hall in a vacuum. I see this relationship, and as a member of this forsaken industry, I also see the other guy's viewpoint quite well. For many, this is anathema, and will stop people from reading, simply because a lot of the personal expectation is that the gambler is always right and infallible and righteous, cannot be wrong when aggrieved, and the operator always wrong and evil, of course. I don't buy this and I don't say this.

Quote: Romes

You ruined this thread for me, and for that I take offence, Dan.

These are your feelings, and I respect that. When we get to the point that neither side is composed of pure saints (and I've come down on crooked dealers and floormen, admit that), and say "okay, that's a point of view and an argument for the operator" without personal feelings causing pain, that's forward movement. I know you want this to be a gamblers forum with no evil industry POV's expressed, and I get that.

No, PGD, it is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. You might think it's different -- it's not.

You have me so wrong, Dan. You think I think the casino is evil or something? Hell no. They're a business with the intentions of making profits. That, I understand. But for them to kick out repeat winners, doing nothing wrong, is certainly unfair in my eyes and pretty much everyone else's. You absolutely can not disagree with facts.

If I walked in to the casino, up to a blackjack table, and announced that I was going to pay attention to what cards came out so that I know what cards are left, I wouldn't make it more than "hopefully" a couple shoes before being asked to STOP playing. Hell, even a ploppy could make the same remarks and have a fair chance at getting backed off just for uttering those words. Casinos SHOULD be in the business of handling money transactions and essentially taking a small fee cut. They're not. They're stuck in this win/loss idea that they must WIN so their profits can go up. So what happens? They kick out any player WINNERS so that they don't "LOSE" and thus think their shifts will do better and their profits will rise. This is idiocy on the casinos part.

If I play at a casino and win X amount of times in a row, the casino doesn't even know what I'm doing but they'll stop me from playing all the same. They don't have any evidence that I'm an advantage, cheating, etc, etc, but they'll stop me from playing just for being a repeatedly winning player. Just as we prove things with simulations over a large number of trials, this has also been PROVEN over the last 50+ years of players repeatedly having this happen to them. Hey, let's take a time travel back 50 years and watch people get beaten, stabbed, shot, and killed for CARD COUNTING, excuse me, using their brains! This has been going on for nearly a century and while the law has helped prohibit physical altercations, the casinos all the same still falsely imprison, steal, and kick people out for simply using their brains. Hell, look at the El Cortez who's known for flat betting or kicking PLOPPIES out who are just on a good winning streak. As much as you so desperately want those to be only my personal experiences, they are fact. Every single one of them can be, and have been proven time and time again. Insanity is defined as doing the same thing and expecting different results. You're expecting casinos to keep kicking people out for using their brains and for one day people to change their minds about how unfair casinos are.

Next you go off to label me a scammer. THIS IS A SUSPENDABLE OFFENCE. I am no cheat, nor a scammer, but you certainly lump me, an advantage player, in to those slanderous words.

If you don't think this forum should be a "training ground," as you put it, then leave. We're here to freely exchange information to help one another learn and become better more complete people, and yes, gamblers. The exchange of information is beyond our god given right to do as the site is MADE for discussion around gambling. Just because 99/100 people don't discuss the same way you do, believing the casinos should deserve a medal for their "thankless job" doesn't give you the right to harass people when trying to start a discussion and freely exchanging information. Normally I'd embrace that 1/100th person because they think differently and usually that's the people you can learn most from... I tried. I tried to read your posts and understand your views from the beginning, yet I find my participation in threads/etc simply stops once I see your name because of your pro-casino babble BS that absentmindedly, and somewhat incoherently, goes against all facts and logic laid out over and over.

It is my opinion that you stifle the exchange of information, learning, and refuse to accept blatantly obvious and well known facts about the casino industry. That's the exact truth, not an insult, and I'd love to put it to a vote for anyone who thinks otherwise.

If you're stating that "as a fact":
1. Casinos are no good, lying, cheating, unfair sacks of Stinking ####, then that really is an opinion. How are they unfair? They're businesses like any other, but with a rougher clientele. And this is not truly accepted.
2. Casinos only let losers play. Opinion: there are a mix of winners and losers, besides the fact that players must know and accept that it is a PAY to PLAY game via a legitimate house edge where the winners win a little less to pay for the lights, dealers, grounds keeping, and the tons of executive perks. There is an unreasonable expectation of free services, for the treat of catering to gamblers. No, it's pay-to-play, and this is the fact. Having a fair house edge is not unreasonable.....in fact [cough!], it is unreasonable to expect free services.
3. Using your brain is not illegal/trespass-able offense in and of itself. Depends on what you use your brain for. My old check-scamming friend came up with an absolutely BRILLIANT check scheme that got him some time in the end, with a reduced sentence for revealing the brilliant mechanisms of his method. He thought he was using his brains. He was indeed. But he wasn't playing by the rules. That's different. One can argue that using your brains is determined by how things work out.

I do "think different." I think casinos are businesses that provide us our gambling services, play by the rules even when we don't (and they have a lot of regulated rules to play by), are enforced to play by the rules, have a right to charge a reasonable house edge via Gaming inspection of their games, and have oftentimes a rough clientele. People here will indeed find this view absurd and outrageous, and will try to take and enforce an "us-versus-them" camp view.

I will also say if you are doing an action that can get you backed off or 86-ed, it is precisely because that action is considered a scam of some sort against the house by the house - as the reason FOR the back off. You should be able to be apprised of this view without being surprised or upset or requesting censorship.

I too am freely exchanging opinions, facts, points of view, what have you, and it may be seen as disagreeable if you disagree with it, but this is supposed to be all right.

1) They're unfair because they claim to offer the game to anyone but if you can legally beat them at their own game they won't let you play. They're unfair because they do illegal things in order to try to hurt someone who's legally won money from them (backroom, report to griffin/OSN, call the police when the patron has done nothing illegal other than be illegally detained, refuse payouts, etc, etc). They're unfair because they only want people whom don't use their brain and losers to play their games. They're unfair because they kick out winning players simply for winning... I could go on for quite some time.

2) It is fact that if you win X times in a row a casino will not let you play. You can be playing 100% legally but if you post up nothing but wins they will eventually give you the boot. It's happened many times before and will happen many times again. The proof, as they say, is in the puddin'.

3) How about our most popular topic, card counting? Not only is it not illegal, but it's been proven LEGAL to do, yet card counting 100% can and will get you trespassed. How many people on these forums alone have been trespassed for card counting? How many pro's? How many times do you really believe this has happened? It happens on a nearly daily basis for casinos. All someone is doing is using their brain to play the game the casino offers to the best of their ability, yet they are kicked out for doing so. I guarantee I can go in to ANY casino of your choosing, LEGALLY count cards, and be kicked out within an hour or two. This is 100% fact of the casino LITERALLY banning people for using their brains and doing nothing illegal.

You might be able to write well, form literate sentences, but you have no logic or facts to back up your claims, where as I do. Sometimes it's simply disagreeing, and sometimes, just sometimes... someone's flat out wrong.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it is not illegal, for the player. But for the dealer to know that certain cards are marked, and to allow it for advantage, is a fire-able offense; now, to further participate in it for profit then it really crosses the line.

Such things are often and naturally viewed as an opportunity for freebies to be taken, with zero consideration or repercussions, which may be the case for the players, less so for a dealer to float down these roads. (For that matter, I know that if a back entrance to an electronics store were open, and free I-phones were there for the easy taking, they would be naturally disappear, with many viewing it as just an opportunity for a little good fortune. This is how exactly and often naturally how people think.) But there is an attitude of it being somehow more okay against a casino business, but less so for another type of business when among a lot of gamblers. This is present, too, in spades.

When we get to traveling down this opportunity/freebie path when it presents itself, (and it is so easy to do), any sort of attention or counter-view to its real nature is often met with annoyance, a bubble bursting, a disruption of the "some gravy for me" happy views or aspects on it. As I mentioned, I had a office drone friend from a while back once stumble across an AP opportunity of sorts involving checks that looked real risk-free and easy to do. He told no one, almost got away with it, felt that it was just fine, a blessing as well as the fruits of his astuteness and ingenuity. Up to a point. I'm sure the guy (or gal) who tapped my bank account feels the same way: "Jim, this is BRILLIANT, it's FREE MONEY! YESSS! I'm so awesome and brilliant with this!...." Many people just think this way when presented with an opportunity.

I didn't rear all of that mainly because you're just confusing the issue and comparing apples to oranges. Why don't you just start comparing rape and murder to what AP's do?

Quote: Romes

1) They're unfair because they claim to offer the game to anyone but if you can legally beat them at their own game they won't let you play. They're unfair because they do illegal things in order to try to hurt someone who's legally won money from them (backroom, report to griffin/OSN, call the police when the patron has done nothing illegal other than be illegally detained, refuse payouts, etc, etc). They're unfair because they only want people whom don't use their brain and losers to play their games. They're unfair because they kick out winning players simply for winning... I could go on for quite some time.

I've routinely left casinos with many times my original buy in, - as have many others, - with a "good for you" for it. If you play the casino's rules, you're fine. This is not everyone's experience, this may be your experience.

Quote: Romes

2) It is fact that if you win X times in a row a casino will not let you play. You can be playing 100% legally but if you post up nothing but wins they will eventually give you the boot. It's happened many times before and will happen many times again. The proof, as they say, is in the puddin'.

Well, it is not just a question of "legal" It also involves playing by the casino's house rules, which may include no counting on blackjack, in which case you can go play at the crap table, poker room, or on Roulette. If you break a house rule, such as no counting, you may be legally backed off for your fully legal play. this happens all the time. Nothing unusual, though it is a cause of resentment against the casino.

Quote: Romes

3) How about our most popular topic, card counting? Not only is it not illegal, but it's been proven LEGAL to do, yet card counting 100% can and will get you trespassed. How many people on these forums alone have been trespassed for card counting? How many pro's? How many times do you really believe this has happened? It happens on a nearly daily basis for casinos. All someone is doing is using their brain to play the game the casino offers to the best of their ability, yet they are kicked out for doing so. I guarantee I can go in to ANY casino of your choosing, LEGALLY count cards, and be kicked out within an hour or two. This is 100% fact of the casino LITERALLY banning people for using their brains and doing nothing illegal.

You're supposed to be backed off for card counting. I agree with it. It is "go play craps or go home." Casinos don't have to tolerate AP play, legal or otherwise, and will enforce this. There is no "right to play," only a privilege to play, except in New Jersey, where the games are so lame it isn't a counters paradise. What do you expect? That you can sit all day counting down decks for personal profit against a business? If you get backed off, well, you have your proof of the puddin'.

Quote: Paigowdan

If you're stating that "as a fact":
1. Casinos are no good, lying, cheating, unfair sacks of Stinking ####, then that really is an opinion. How are they unfair? They're businesses like any other, but with a rougher clientele. And this is not truly accepted.
2. Casinos only let losers play. Opinion: there are a mix of winners and losers, besides the fact that players must know and accept that it is a PAY to PLAY game via a legitimate house edge where the winners win a little less to pay for the lights, dealers, grounds keeping, and the tons of executive perks. There is an unreasonable expectation of free services, for the treat of catering to gamblers. No, it's pay-to-play, and this is the fact. Having a fair house edge is not unreasonable.....in fact [cough!], it is unreasonable to expect free services.
3. Using your brain is not illegal/trespass-able offense in and of itself. Depends on what you use your brain for. My old check-scamming friend came up with an absolutely BRILLIANT check scheme that got him some time in the end, with a reduced sentence for revealing the brilliant mechanisms of his method. He thought he was using his brains. He was indeed. But he wasn't playing by the rules. That's different. One can argue that using your brains is determined by how things work out.

I do "think different." I think casinos are businesses that provide us our gambling services, play by the rules even when we don't (and they have a lot of regulated rules to play by), are enforced to play by the rules, have a right to charge a reasonable house edge via Gaming inspection of their games, and have oftentimes a rough clientele. People here will indeed find this view absurd and outrageous, and will try to take and enforce an "us-versus-them" camp view.

I too am freely exchanging opinions, facts, points of view, what have you, and it may be seen as disagreeable if you disagree with it, but this is supposed to be all right.

I don't know if you're repeatedly missing Romes' point or if you're dissembling on purpose. Nobody's disputing the house having a right to deal games with a house edge. What Romes is saying is that it's not enough for a lot of houses these days to let the HE do its work over time. There's an honor code that's being violated. The casino says, "here's what we're dealing; take your best shot". If they're honorable, they let that be enough, and it's on the gambler if they play a game with too high a HE or run bad and chase losses.

But what's happening these days is, the gambler (who after all, is the "profit" part of the profit/overhead equation) who takes the chance and wins is getting cut off, put under special rules like flat betting and preferential shuffles, or just thrown off the property. They are, in effect, raising the HE against the winning player but not the losing ones on a dynamic basis, which is dishonest and unfair to all their customers.

It's also on the house to protect their games. If they're not replacing their marked cards immediately, and the dealer's notified the floor there's a marked card (or more) in play, then it's on them. Just like it's on them to notice a sloppy dealer, bad procedure, or design flaw, and then either DO something about it, or accept the leak as the lesser problem. None of that's on the players, and once the dealer has done the notification, it's not on him/her either. So I don't understand what or who you think you're defending in arguing throughout this thread, and I do think you went off the rails on Elast, perhaps misunderstanding what he was saying but more likely misplaced anger with your ID theft and worry about your mom (I think you might consider an apology, in fact, which it seemed you were close to offering but stopped short).

As a player, it's not a scam to use all the information available to you with no interference on your part. Your anger would be better placed at casinos that don't enforce their game protection policies well, actively look for and remediate their leaks, and provide better training for their employees.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Romes

1) They're unfair because they claim to offer the game to anyone but if you can legally beat them at their own game they won't let you play. They're unfair because they do illegal things in order to try to hurt someone who's legally won money from them (backroom, report to griffin/OSN, call the police when the patron has done nothing illegal other than be illegally detained, refuse payouts, etc, etc). They're unfair because they only want people whom don't use their brain and losers to play their games. They're unfair because they kick out winning players simply for winning... I could go on for quite some time.

I've routinely left casinos with many times my original buy in, - as have many others, - with a "good for you" for it. If you play the casino's rules, you're fine. This is not everyone's experience, this may be your experience...

Who's leveraging their "personal experiences" now?

This right here is enough to show you're just ignoring facts, logic, and all resemblance of a coherent response. This is blatant spam and should be treated as such with a suspension.

Quote: Paigowdan

...the casino's house rules, which may include no counting on blackjack, in which case you can go play at the crap table, poker room, or on Roulette.

No. Does any casino have that as a written rule? If they do I'd shop elsewhere.
My online casino has a rule which basically says 'Any time we want to, we can ban you and seize all your account balance and renege on any bonuses. They did! It wasn't illegal, but to hell with them. My crime. Thinking and using their rules.

However much I disagree with Dans point of view, it should still be welcome on the forums along with any other point of view. Censorship is the enemy of knowledge.

PGD, please stop lumping advantage play in with cheaters or illegal activities.

Quote: RS

PGD, please stop lumping advantage play in with cheaters or illegal activities.

That's what my post to him was about in essence. My entire department and staff are employed to ensure legitimate gaming practices. I could not care less if someone makes money at our facility. I actually prefer it, as long as it's legitimate. Whatever advantages that are taken into account are irrelevant as long as it's legal.

I dislike the whole stigma of "AP = immoral" or similar groupings.

Quote: Paigowdan

I went to the bank today and submitted the affidavit form with my wife, and was told I should be good; it'll take a number of business days to get it back. Faster than government work at the IRS....I was also told that they had a flurry of incidents, and that there's an increase of them around this time of year. It seems to be an annual epidemic for the Advent season or something. A special "Merry Christmas for you - I'm getting MY presents" kind of thing. Now when I read about some data breach in the news at Target or Best Buy or something, I no longer think "Well, I'm safe, that's not me!" because yes it is me. I'm going to get LifeLock or something. Another bank manager said this is serious stuff, some are filing criminal complaints, and those caught won't have an easy time. Bank wire fraud is a felony.

Yeah, having something bad happen caused both of us to stop being naive, so it caused us to wise up quickly. :)

Quote: PGD

...Now when I read about some data breach in the news at Target or Best Buy or something, I no longer think "Well, I'm safe, that's not me!" because yes it is me. I'm going to get LifeLock or something...

Do you ever wonder whether LifeLock and/or similar companies finance the thieves' activities to drive more clients to their services? I do.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I don't know if you're repeatedly missing Romes' point or if you're dissembling on purpose. Nobody's disputing the house having a right to deal games with a house edge. What Romes is saying is that it's not enough for a lot of houses these days to let the HE do its work over time. There's an honor code that's being violated. The casino says, "here's what we're dealing; take your best shot". If they're honorable, they let that be enough, and it's on the gambler if they play a game with too high a HE or run bad and chase losses.

But what's happening these days is, the gambler (who after all, is the "profit" part of the profit/overhead equation) who takes the chance and wins is getting cut off, put under special rules like flat betting and preferential shuffles, or just thrown off the property. They are, in effect, raising the HE against the winning player but not the losing ones on a dynamic basis, which is dishonest and unfair to all their customers.

Barbara, this is not the case; what is going on is that IF the player is winning "cleanly" in the houses eyes, (such as a jackpot on Pai Gow Poker, or no card counting on Blackjack, or a hot roll on dice) then all winning are 100% FINE, ....but if there's card-counting, THEN you get flat-betted or are asked to leave, and the casino has a right to do this. So no, it is not "your best shot." Some stuff is O-U-T out. In other words, you do NOT take the card-counting shot among other things, and EXPECT to be backed off or 86-ed. That's 100% different, and a factual situation that is NOT accepted as acceptable by some gamblers.

Quote: Babs

It's also on the house to protect their games. If they're not replacing their marked cards immediately, and the dealer's notified the floor there's a marked card (or more) in play, then it's on them.

No it isn't. ALL people - including customers - are held to various standards of behavior. If there are marked cards in play, the house may take the position that it is on the people who are using marked cards, and will come down on them. Edge sorting also. Ivey was NOT given "his" money back, and yes, the casino DID protest those wins as being "on the player for the events that went down." Marked cards and edge sorting are of a different status than simple card counting. This too is different. So no, it is not an anything goes, it is all on the house, free for all kind of thing. Not all is "on the house." Some boundaries are also expected of the people who come into casinos.

Quote: Babs

Just like it's on them to notice a sloppy dealer, bad procedure, or design flaw, and then either DO something about it, or accept the leak as the lesser problem. None of that's on the players, and once the dealer has done the notification, it's not on him/her either.

If a player wins money because of a dealer error, the player may, - and often will - be told to return the extra money won. That is "on the player," as he has to return money out of his bankroll back to the house. The casino may, at its discretion, also ask the player to leave that table if the house feels the player had taken excess advantage or had manipulated the dealer. Remember, the house - like the player - is not obligated or compelled to enter into any gambling scenario it does not wish to be in. Just as a player may leave a table, the house may deny any action to a player or back a player off.

Quote: Babs

So I don't understand what or who you think you're defending in arguing throughout this thread, and I do think you went off the rails on Elast, perhaps misunderstanding what he was saying but more likely misplaced anger with your ID theft and worry about your mom (I think you might consider an apology, in fact, which it seemed you were close to offering but stopped short).

I do regret re-directing any other-related anger here. All members here who post discussions in good faith here are cool with me, regardless of agreeing or seeing eye to eye on technical casino issues, which it is okay to disagree on. I was actually very patient and cool with the bank personnel through this whole thing, considering myself previously and somewhat "vented." I am utterly flabbergasted at this rash off ID theft, - there are literally HORDES of people just reaching into innocent people's pocketbooks and just grabbing cash like stick-ups, and thinking absolutely nothing of it.

Quote: Babs

As a player, it's not a scam to use all the information available to you with no interference on your part.

The thing is, and as strange as this sounds, it may indeed be a scam or illegal or improper, - depending how the information is gotten or obtained. And this concept is completely alien to many gamblers, who may feel totally entitled to do whatever the hell they want in someone else's joint, with it being "some outrageous nerve" to be told otherwise or that this is not the case. There IS a difference between a dealer flashing cards, and hole-carding, and there is a problem with information obtained by marked cards or even edge-sorting (remember, Ivey was fought hard and was denied in the end), and any sort of concept that this may be improper to do is met with a "oh, you must be from MARS" kind of attitude, as "we gamblers may of course do whatever we think is ethical right with us in this joint, and if you disagree with me, then it is you who is out of bounds, you see."

Quote: Babs

Your anger would be better placed at casinos that don't enforce their game protection policies well, actively look for and remediate their leaks, and provide better training for their employees.

It is. it is shared there too. I have told shift managers, floormen, dealers, and table game directors some very plain English that they'd deserve the losses and firings if the run the place with the heads in their backsides.

Quote: Dodsferd

[RE: ...on lumping Advantage play with "cheaters" or fully illegal activities] That's what my post to him was about in essence. My entire department and staff are employed to ensure legitimate gaming practices. I could not care less if someone makes money at our facility. I actually prefer it, as long as it's legitimate. Whatever advantages that are taken into account are irrelevant as long as it's legal.

I dislike the whole stigma of "AP = immoral" or similar groupings.

Okay. Understand that the house is going to consider some things "out of bounds" or "unacceptable" and stop its occurrence below a level of 100% technically illegal. You WILL get backed off for LEGAL behaviors if it is unacceptable behavior to the casino house, and where the casino makes that call, AND your agreement or feelings about it are immaterial. And I assure you this situation makes NO sense to some people, particularly in its being acceptable or proper to non-AP'ers.

It is NOT whether it is illegal or legal, it is whether it is "approved" or "disallowed" play by the house. If it is further illegal, then the cops may also come, but if it is disallowed by the house, the player will at least be stopped or denied action or 86-ed or backed off.

And yes, AP play will be viewed as "shot taking" or "immoral" or "unethical" or "inappropriate behavior", and do not have a care in the world about someone else's opinion on that, whether it is a casino manager, an industry employee, or a ploppie player, who will view AP in those terms.

Why care? Why expect AP play to be embraced and endorsed or "somehow cool" by all people? Now THAT is making some big expectations.

This gets funnier and funnier every time...carry on...

Dan,

Thanks for the response. I think we're still talking past each other a bit, so I'd like to address just that part. On the illegal/unacceptable player shenanigans side, I place (from your various examples and others);

Shiners, cig cams, confederates reading cards behind the table and signaling, etc.
Light wands
Daubing/marking/bending cards
Manipulating the dealer into edge-sortable configs aka Ivey
capping/pinching
collusion w/dealer or other players
electronic devices that manipulate the machine or shuffler somehow

On the "use what is environmentally available" information side, aka "caveat casino", I put:

Cards marked or bent by a shuffle machine, bent by hand-shuffling, left in play too long with individual but normal wear, and NOT reported, or not replaced when reported.
Badly placed table components that ergonomically encourage or force flashing or HC exposure.
Dealer carelessness in exposing cards, not randomly turning cards in shuffle, not burning cards, not following protection routine in all cases and to the letter.
Games/bets not calculated correctly for mathematical exposure, exploitable design flaws, marketing promotions with +ev aspects, cheap cards with irregular edges/designs, worn cards, dice, or playing surfaces.
Countable games.

There has to be a line. I draw it where, if the player does nothing to manipulate the game, but simply plays it to the best of his/her ability by the rules the casino sets out, observing all that happens and understanding the significance of what they see, it is part of the "contract" the casino agrees to in offering the bet and the venue.

You obviously draw it elsewhere, and to my mind, it's an arbitrary line you've drawn when talking about counting or hole carding. For example, Hole-carding via a shiner or minicam or daubed cards is wrong. Hole-carding via a bad table layout, machine-damaged cards or sloppy dealer is observant. The first set should result in player banning. The second set should result in casino modification, maintenance, or retraining.

Errors in the player's favor on payouts should be made right, just as short-pays should (we've always agreed on that). It's part of the contract between the player and the house that you'll both abide by the HE of the game, and either of those changes it. But by the same token, if the house is going to use a shoe, it should be a consistent cut every shoe. If there's a min-max bet range, it should be the same for all players. If some have studied the game and are using their heads to play optimal, that's how it is, and the casino should trust time/variance and the HE to do the work.

The HE for every game IS a HOUSE edge, developed assuming EVERY player plays optimal (is an expert) every hand. Almost nobody does, so the house makes more than the math says they should expect. Either that has to be enough, or they have to change the game for everybody, not selectively cut off the experts or the winners.

Ivey didn't get his money back. Did the Borgata get their money back? NO they didn't.

Quote: beachbumbabs

...not selectively cut off the experts or the winners.

This is what they want. Then you got the scare mongers that have no business in this out there consulting for them making it worse.

Quote: Paigowdan

Okay. Understand that the house is going to consider some things "out of bounds" or "unacceptable" and stop its occurrence below a level of 100% technically illegal. You WILL get backed [snip]

Okay. Understand that I run a Surveillance department in a Casino, and was responding from the side that investigates and is responsible for having people barred from the casino.

So PGD you admit they only permit losing players to play and they kick out winning players. Check.

What if the dealer is flashing the hole card and someone plays for a little while. But then the management see the error, and ask people for their money back. Is this fair/right? What if a player had been losing -- do you really think the casino would give that person their money back? That's absolutely ridiculous.

I've said many times that this can go both ways. Casinos can refuse your action if deemed an AP just as we can also refuse their action as they're APs as well.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

This gets funnier and funnier every time...carry on...

Okay. I think I can boil the disagreement down to several points on AP:

1. That "clean AP play" must somehow morally be allowed in a casino, especially if it is "legal." And if they don't allow it, then the casinos are, in some way, wrong or are bad, or are in our AP opinion, unethical by disallowing the stuff that we happen to feel is fair for us to use. THIS is our AP point of view. But this is not true. The house decides what is "clean play," and will let you know this. And THIS will be felt to be wrong or indecent or unfair - even angering - by the AP player, and this will be vociferously voiced by the AP-sympathetic players at forums. This is because "what is fair" is composed of different subsets of what should be allowable based on our points of view. And this conflict is relatively intractable because AP players will always feel that their stuff is 100% kosher, and that the business owner should not set reasonable limits on what we happen to feel is acceptable to do in their joints, or do such things themselves. Especially when we can make some real money.

2. To disagree with the AP point of view is understandably very annoying and angering, because clearly we're 100% right and very sensible on these matters. We KNOW what is fair of course, because we believe it to be so and we will say so. The casinos point of view is very unfair and not sensible, because we should be able to make some money at their expense, and they have no right to make the rules in their business establishments because, well, this is just not real and fair gambling as we see it.

3. That such things as taking advantage of marked cards (even inadvertently), or card counting opportunities to run down a shoe, or hole-carding or edge sorting should be allowable as "player" house rules of the game, and should be allowable and acceptable (or at least not to be rebuked or considered wrong) in our point of view. This is because it presents us opportunities to make some extra money against these evil businesses, and because we can argue the points as fair and righteous from our position. Furthermore, casino businesses should not be able to stop us from utilizing these advantages, even though they themselves may take NO actions whatsoever to stack the decks in their favor using these same techniques. (And yes, even I feel that the casino using preferential re-shuffles to shut down a hot deck is wrong, but if it is, then players should also be barred from counting, because preferential re-shuffling IS conversely casino card-counting. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander in fair gambling.)

4. If a casino dealer makes a mistake in our favor, it should be allowed, but if the casino makes a mistake in their favor, they should all die should not be allowed that unfair advantage then in that case. Actually, if a hand can be played back to its correct result by the honest and actual result of the cards, it is done as such as "fair to all sides," with the payouts correctly rectified and restored. This is done if possible, and is fair. This "mistakes should be allowed only if it favors us" is not right, and is an unreasonable expectation.

5. That I have a right to feel upset, offended, or angry if someone is so dense as to disagree with me, especially Dan, who should be banned. (Actually, it is only natural to feel piqued or angry over disagreements.)

Quote: Paigowdan

Okay. I think I can boil the disagreement down to several points on AP:

1. That "clean AP play" must somehow morally be allowed in a casino, especially if it is "legal." And if they don't allow it, then the casinos are, in some way, wrong or are bad, or are in our AP opinion, unethical by disallowing the stuff that we happen to feel is fair for us to use...

Re-read my post above this. Sure it sucks for us but I don't think it's immoral to refuse us service.

Quote: RS

So PGD you admit they only permit losing players to play and they kick out winning players. Check.

No. Depends on how they win.

Quote: RS

What if the dealer is flashing the hole card and someone plays for a little while. But then the management see the error, and ask people for their money back. Is this fair/right? What if a player had been losing -- do you really think the casino would give that person their money back? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Again, POV. If it was not by the game's fair rules (and "seeing the dealer's cards when you are not supposed to") may count. What if the dealer saw the player's cards, and as a result played differently to win? Is that kosher then? Isn't this different game rules of fairness for the player versus dealer? the floorman may ask for it back and for you not to do this. He should also tell the dealer, "When you get tapped off game, come to the shift office for a chat...."

Quote: Paigowdan

...What if the dealer saw the player's cards, and as a result played differently to win? Is that kosher then?

Absolutely!

Quote: Dodsferd

Quote: Paigowdan

Okay. Understand that the house is going to consider some things "out of bounds" or "unacceptable" and stop its occurrence below a level of 100% technically illegal. You WILL get backed [snip]

Okay. Understand that I run a Surveillance department in a Casino, and was responding from the side that investigates and is responsible for having people barred from the casino.

There's another variable here that perhaps hasn't been considered. The fact that a casino employee is initiating this action could lead to regulatory backlash, irrespective of the question of legality. Someone who is an employee of a regulated gaming operator can bring ill fortune upon their employer through their actions even if not actually illegal. There is precedent for exactly this happening in Nevada. The NGCB has been known to issue fines and penalties for actions that don't conform to standards for suitability. A security guard at the Aria high-limit roulette table once told an undercover NGCB agent that observing a high-stakes roulette game from a distance of 5-7 feet away was not welcome. That cost the Aria $100,000. Here's a list:
http://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=107

A regular player (or an AP) observing and acting on unintentionally scuffed cards isn't illegal, I think there's little dispute about that. It's not illegal if an employee of a competing casino does it either, but that action might expose the casino to regulatory penalties because it looks bad. Importantly, it is the gaming regulators charged with maintaining standards of suitability -- and not the average WoV reader -- who decide what looks bad enough to sanction.

So Dan basically says:

1) Casinos only let losers play. If you count, that's against the "casino rules." If you "AP," that's against the "casino" rules. Thus, you must play the game as designed at their house edge which is a guaranteed loss for anyone who plays the game over even a small window of time. Casinos only let losers play.

2) Since when do the casinos get to make the "moral" rules? Sure, they are a private company that can kick people out for just about any reason they see fit, but that doesn't mean we have to all agree whatever they come up with is "morally" okay for their rules. The angst most have against the casinos here are because we don't believe their rules are fair nor accurately representative of what they project on to the public.

Dan, I'd like to offer you a game of single deck blackjack. If you EVER get a blackjack, I'll pay you $1,000,000. Otherwise, you lose the hand and your bet... Oh, by the way, it's "house rules" that I'm going to remove all of the aces. COME PLAY MY GAME AND TAKE A SHOT AT WINNING!

...That's essentially what the "house rules" attempt to do. Rig the games 100% in their favor and then they go out and publicly claim "come try to beat us and hey, anyone can win!" when in reality that's not the case. They are scam artists for this reason.

Million Dollar Question
If the casino had a rule, unwritten much like their card counting rule, that states no one was ever allowed to actually win, would that be moral and their right and just? Would they still deserve the medal for the 'thankless job' you stated they do earlier? So whenever someone won, the house would just refuse to pay them... because that's a "house rule." Have they finally crossed the "fair" threshold and entered in to a "scam" ideology in your mind yet?

Quote: Romes

...Sure, they are a private company...

I don't like this defense they use. Most are PUBLICLY traded these days.

Quote: Paigowdan

No. Depends on how they win.


Again, POV. If it was not by the game's fair rules (and "seeing the dealer's cards when you are not supposed to") may count. What if the dealer saw the player's cards, and as a result played differently to win? Is that kosher then? Isn't this different game rules of fairness for the player versus dealer? the floorman may ask for it back and for you not to do this. He should also tell the dealer, "When you get tapped off game, come to the shift office for a chat...."

So then what form of actually winning is permitted by the casino? I don't mean hitting royals, getting on a lucky streak, or whatever else you're probably thinking.


It is wrong to offer a game and say, "Come on in, try to beat us! We love winners!" Then, when someone does come in and play the game to win, they are kicked out.

El Cortez does (or used to) have a sign [in casino] promoting their single deck game. I don't remember the exact words, but was encouraging people to come play their SD game and win. Meanwhile, they back-off any player who has at least heard of basic strategy.


I don't know how many times I've heard, "It's state/federal law that you MUST have an ID on you while in a casino". We all well know that's not true. What about when cashing out certain amounts at the cage (that do no exceed federal reporting requirements [$10K+])....when told ID is necessary to cash out? How do you feel about casinos using these illegal scare-tactics?

What about casinos that offer really good promotions, and someone figures out the best way to play it. Then the casino kicking out said player? It seems like a house-rule is to kick out any winning player.

Quote: RS

...What about casinos that offer really good promotions, and someone figures out the best way to play it. Then the casino kicking out said player? It seems like a house-rule is to kick out any winning player.

Dan's already admitted twice through his writing about "house rules" that only losing players are allowed to play the games.

I hit two royal flushes in 3 days and was told my action was no longer welcome. I wasn't doing anything illegal immoral or anything against posted casino rules. It wasn't even during a promotion. So some casinos don't want winners even if you follow the rules.

Quote: Hunterhill

...So some casinos don't want winners even if you follow the rules.

"So no casinos want winners even if you follow the rules."

...Fixed that for you.

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: PGD

Okay. Understand that the house is going to consider some things "out of bounds" or "unacceptable" and stop its occurrence below a level of 100% technically illegal. You WILL get backed [snip]

...A regular player (or an AP) observing and acting on unintentionally scuffed cards isn't illegal, I think there's little dispute about that. It's not illegal if an employee of a competing casino does it either, but that action might expose the casino to regulatory penalties because it looks bad. Importantly, it is the gaming regulators charged with maintaining standards of suitability -- and not the average WoV reader -- who decide what looks bad enough to sanction.

True. People discussing things at a forum see their POV most strongly.

Let's say you were a fraud detection/compliance officer for Bank of America. And let's say, in your off time, you come across a check-kiting scheme or a bad check scheme against the Bank of Nevada. You can say "Ahh, what the hell, what's wrong with someone making a little extra money...after all, nothing's sweeter than a little illicit gain, right? It'll help pay for his daughter's braces or something..." This might not be illegal, to keep shut. Or you can report it and close up that bit of corruption in your name. And you might get punished for it, too: "Damn it, Jim, you closed down a leaking hole that was costing us $10,000 - but you made us look bad. To paraphrase the great Fernando Llamas, We're supposed to look good, not BE good! Don't you know that, you politically naïve S.O.B.??!! You're fired, schmuck!" And that security guard caused an expense and was probably fired for, of all things, reporting the operational truth to a Nevada gaming agent.

I once was involved in a player dispute on EZ Pai Gow at a casino. There was a misprint on the EZpg layout that could easily be argued to pay 100:1 on one type of simple straight (A-5 wheel straight) that should pay 2:1, and with a dollar bet twice on it when that hand came up. The distributor missed the typo on these two layouts, an innocent thing here. The player openly said "Hey! I CAN make a claim....IF I call gaming....hmmm," - and he did so! [I might assume he is a member here.....] A NGCB Gaming agent comes. Player says "Look, sir, there's the layout with the typo! I deserve money, even if it looks like I'm taking a SHOT! [He WAS indeed...] The shift manager says "Okay, Dan, schmuck - you go talk to the gaming agent. Your game, you were the relief dealer, you explain it, I throw you to him!" Gaming agent asks me if there is a typo on the layout. I say yes, they omitted a word, changing it from "A-5 Straight Flush" to "A-5 Straight" [only] on two layouts. We missed it, as did the distributor and the layout printer also." I also say "player is taking a shot here...he knows otherwise and better." Agent says that's immaterial. Agent says "Can you see the player's point without regards to him taking a shot and even enjoying this situation against you?" I said "Yes I can. I admit there's a typo that can indeed be construed to pay 100:1. And he had bet $1 twice, and he did hit that hand twice." Agent says, "Okay, you men now owe him $200. Now PAY him, AND close the table until the layout is fixed." "Yessir, will do." He apprises the shift manager. Shift manager calls me into the shift office. Visions of Colonel Klink's office from Hogan's Heroes arise....a bowl of teeth and a pair of pliers sitting on the shift manager's desk, jumper cables and a cattle prod are in the corner of the office (now they DO have to deal with dealers here now...) Shift manager asks me "what did you tell the agent?" I said there was indeed a typo on the layout that was unnoticed for years until somebody takes a shot and makes a claim, - rare on Pai Gow Poker, but as we know, we can expect that on craps and BJ." Manager says "Aw, crap, now we have to pay a shot taker $200.....that offends me." I said "Me too. But I told the agent the truth of the situation." He said, "That's okay, you're supposed to do that. Always a little scary when an agent comes in, but you'd be in more hot water if you B.S. them. Take the lumps and go with it." He gets it.


Such types of quandaries coming from the private sector or, on rare occasions [cough!] "government work" can be at times very political and punitive. No good deed goes unpunished.

Quote: Hunterhill

I hit two royal flushes in 3 days and was told my action was no longer welcome. I wasn't doing anything illegal immoral or anything against posted casino rules. It wasn't even during a promotion. So some casinos don't want winners even if you follow the rules.

Some houses are sweat-the-money clowns. Most aren't.

Quote: Paigowdan

Some houses are sweat-the-money clowns. Most are.

Fixed that for you bud.

Quote: Romes

"So no casinos want winners even if you follow the rules."

...Fixed that for you.

+1

Hey, if you believe this about the houses that are providing you your gambling services, you'd be fools to play there.

Go read books, go to the movies, go bowling then.......or open up your own AP-friendly joints and see how you do.

Dan, you didn't answer a couple of my questions...

1) I'm offering you a blackjack game where I'll pay you ONE MILLION DOLLARS if you ever get a blackjack! It's just my "unwritten" house rules that I removed all of the aces from the deck. Would I be a scammer if I didn't tell you about the unwritten rule and invited you to come play my game and take your chance at WINNING BIG???

2) If the casino hypothetically had an "unwritten" house rule that no one was allowed to win... i.e. they just didn't pay out anyone that actually won and kicked people out... would this put them finally in the "scammer" or "unfair" category?