Local UTH is broken and I want to know how to exploit
November 29th, 2015 at 10:28:54 AM
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So here's the situation -- I deal at a casino in Edmonton and have noticed a ridiculously lax prop games environment, particularly on Ultimate Texas Hold'em. Pretty much everywhere, the rule against showing each other your cards is not enforced. No dealer where I work has successfully shut down the sharing of information about the hand, and only one casino in the area has a rule about speaking in a foreign language at the table.
Worse, at two casinos, the shuffle machine wears at the backs of the cards. Towards the end of the night, as many as three cards per deck will be noticeably marked. The board cards and dealer cards all remain face down and visible for the entirety of the hand, so one could theoretically be holding, say, 84 offsuit, and see a marked eight of clubs on the river, and bet that information four times. For about three hours a night on the weekends, the deck is worn down enough to make this possible.
This is a situation rife with potential exploits, but I haven't been able to find any information on a proper mathematical approach (probably because it's goddamned ridiculous that these kind of holes can exist in the game). I have to ask about a good strategic approach given knowing the hole cards of AT LEAST the players on your immediate left and right, knowing 1-3 potentially marked cards, and/or both. How profitable can this game be? Is it worth taking the time?
Worse, at two casinos, the shuffle machine wears at the backs of the cards. Towards the end of the night, as many as three cards per deck will be noticeably marked. The board cards and dealer cards all remain face down and visible for the entirety of the hand, so one could theoretically be holding, say, 84 offsuit, and see a marked eight of clubs on the river, and bet that information four times. For about three hours a night on the weekends, the deck is worn down enough to make this possible.
This is a situation rife with potential exploits, but I haven't been able to find any information on a proper mathematical approach (probably because it's goddamned ridiculous that these kind of holes can exist in the game). I have to ask about a good strategic approach given knowing the hole cards of AT LEAST the players on your immediate left and right, knowing 1-3 potentially marked cards, and/or both. How profitable can this game be? Is it worth taking the time?
November 29th, 2015 at 11:12:50 PM
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We've discussed a few times, including in a recent thread, the value of knowing other players' cards. The general consensus is that, while it helps a little, it doesn't help a whole lot. Further, my experience has been that most people using full table information wind up making poor plays as a result (ex: Checking their A-J because they see a Jack gone.)
As for the marking of cards, I'll let others chime in on that.
As for the marking of cards, I'll let others chime in on that.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
November 29th, 2015 at 11:42:38 PM
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Quote: ElastoidSo here's the situation -- I deal at a casino in Edmonton and have noticed a ridiculously lax prop games environment, particularly on Ultimate Texas Hold'em. Pretty much everywhere, the rule against showing each other your cards is not enforced. No dealer where I work has successfully shut down the sharing of information about the hand, and only one casino in the area has a rule about speaking in a foreign language at the table.
Worse, at two casinos, the shuffle machine wears at the backs of the cards. Towards the end of the night, as many as three cards per deck will be noticeably marked. The board cards and dealer cards all remain face down and visible for the entirety of the hand, so one could theoretically be holding, say, 84 offsuit, and see a marked eight of clubs on the river, and bet that information four times. For about three hours a night on the weekends, the deck is worn down enough to make this possible.
This is a situation rife with potential exploits, but I haven't been able to find any information on a proper mathematical approach (probably because it's goddamned ridiculous that these kind of holes can exist in the game). I have to ask about a good strategic approach given knowing the hole cards of AT LEAST the players on your immediate left and right, knowing 1-3 potentially marked cards, and/or both. How profitable can this game be? Is it worth taking the time?
First of all, if you're a casino dealer, and you're looking to exploit casino game weaknesses in order to "work" with player-agents to exploit marked cards as a situation "rife with potential exploits," then you should be behind bars, with your backside being rife with potential exploits from your fellow cell mates. Based on what we're hearing, this is the thing that really should be exploited.
Secondly, you should have reported what you had written up here to your bosses, so that you can get promoted in the casino industry, instead of potentially arrested by a gaming control board. Of course, this did not come first to your mind, even though their name is the signature on your paycheck, on not yours. May this come to be, and to an end.
I mean, it is just great to see a casino dealer from Canada openly solicit people to participate in casino fraud, with clearly announced marked cards. openly on a gaming forum, what with so many Gaming Control Boards monitoring Mike Shackleford's site over here, and all that..."
May you be doing time shortly.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:03:48 AM
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First of all, I am a dealer, but I'm not looking to work with anyone at my casino. That would, in fact, be illegal and unethical.
Second, I HAVE reported what I have written up to my bosses. Nothing changed. I have called pit bosses over, demonstrated that I can find, say, the Ace of Spades from the card backs, and had them tell me to stop bringing it up, because (they say) no one would notice. Far from a potential promotion, I've got superiors who are angry at me for -- in their mind -- wasting their time. The same goes for attempting to caution players against sharing this information. On one instance, I called pit boss after a player who I had warned twice said, "I have pocket fours. Anyone have a four? I have pocket fours." The pit boss looked at me, said "Seriously?" and then looked at the player, said "Whatever," and walked away. I'm not going to insist on going against the grain in hopes that I change the whole culture there, especially when it could cost me my job.
Some context -- here in Edmonton, there are too many jobs, not enough workers, and no one takes his job seriously. I didn't grow up here, I don't appreciate the culture, and if I seem sore about it, it's because I am. I'm stuck up here to help a family member out for a bit, but I went from California weather to this terrible place with it's shitty little casinos and widespread allergy to good customer service or attention to detail. That I have no future here is the only comforting thought as I wade through the local cesspool of terrible service and apathetic coworkers.
I've sent the Games Manager an email, I haven't heard back, but whatever. I'm obviously not planning on playing at the casino at which I am employed -- that, on its own, is against AGLC regulations. The neighboring casino with the same problems, though? I have no moral reservations. I am not collaborating with anyone working for the casino I play at, or in any way attempting to influence the game to create an exploit. I'm merely recognizing that an exploit exists, and if the casino sees no need to remedy it, I see no need to give it a wide berth.
Second, I HAVE reported what I have written up to my bosses. Nothing changed. I have called pit bosses over, demonstrated that I can find, say, the Ace of Spades from the card backs, and had them tell me to stop bringing it up, because (they say) no one would notice. Far from a potential promotion, I've got superiors who are angry at me for -- in their mind -- wasting their time. The same goes for attempting to caution players against sharing this information. On one instance, I called pit boss after a player who I had warned twice said, "I have pocket fours. Anyone have a four? I have pocket fours." The pit boss looked at me, said "Seriously?" and then looked at the player, said "Whatever," and walked away. I'm not going to insist on going against the grain in hopes that I change the whole culture there, especially when it could cost me my job.
Some context -- here in Edmonton, there are too many jobs, not enough workers, and no one takes his job seriously. I didn't grow up here, I don't appreciate the culture, and if I seem sore about it, it's because I am. I'm stuck up here to help a family member out for a bit, but I went from California weather to this terrible place with it's shitty little casinos and widespread allergy to good customer service or attention to detail. That I have no future here is the only comforting thought as I wade through the local cesspool of terrible service and apathetic coworkers.
I've sent the Games Manager an email, I haven't heard back, but whatever. I'm obviously not planning on playing at the casino at which I am employed -- that, on its own, is against AGLC regulations. The neighboring casino with the same problems, though? I have no moral reservations. I am not collaborating with anyone working for the casino I play at, or in any way attempting to influence the game to create an exploit. I'm merely recognizing that an exploit exists, and if the casino sees no need to remedy it, I see no need to give it a wide berth.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:12:27 AM
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You have said this:
This is a situation rife with potential exploits, but I haven't been able to find any information on a proper mathematical approach (probably because it's goddamned ridiculous that these kind of holes can exist in the game). I have to ask about a good strategic approach given knowing the hole cards of AT LEAST the players on your immediate left and right, knowing 1-3 potentially marked cards, and/or both. How profitable can this game be? Is it worth taking the time?
Okay:
1. "How Profitable can this game be?" (Are your concerned for casino losses, of for your own gain?)
2. "Is is worth taking the time [to expliot?]" (ditto).
Apparently there is no response posted from your casino operator on this?
And who IS your casino operator?
Don't you think your casino operator should have an opportunity to officially fix this before you post it?
I mean as a dealer, you yourself "cannot call/close the lid up."
This is a situation rife with potential exploits, but I haven't been able to find any information on a proper mathematical approach (probably because it's goddamned ridiculous that these kind of holes can exist in the game). I have to ask about a good strategic approach given knowing the hole cards of AT LEAST the players on your immediate left and right, knowing 1-3 potentially marked cards, and/or both. How profitable can this game be? Is it worth taking the time?
Okay:
1. "How Profitable can this game be?" (Are your concerned for casino losses, of for your own gain?)
2. "Is is worth taking the time [to expliot?]" (ditto).
Apparently there is no response posted from your casino operator on this?
And who IS your casino operator?
Don't you think your casino operator should have an opportunity to officially fix this before you post it?
I mean as a dealer, you yourself "cannot call/close the lid up."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:14:50 AM
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Simple answer: it's not profitable
LOL at Paigowdan. You're right, someone should go to jail for asking for a collusion strategy on UTH and being employed in a casino.
LOL at Paigowdan. You're right, someone should go to jail for asking for a collusion strategy on UTH and being employed in a casino.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:16:15 AM
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Quote: tongniSimple answer: it's not profitable
LOL at Paigowdan. You're right, someone should go to jail for asking for a collusion strategy on UTH and being employed in a casino.
I agree.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:16:21 AM
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Hey, it's his first/second post in 179.
"More jobs than workers,"- a good excuse to broadcast casino employer vulnerabilities on a gaming website.
"More jobs than workers,"- a good excuse to broadcast casino employer vulnerabilities on a gaming website.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:16:21 AM
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Quote: tongniSimple answer: it's not profitable
LOL at Paigowdan. You're right, someone should go to jail for asking for a collusion strategy on UTH and being employed in a casino.
Marked cards and profitable casino game faults should not be posted until problem resolved.
Actually, they should not post until the "lid is up" / the game closed and safe first.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:22:42 AM
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The idea that cards get worn over play and recognizable is something that happens in every casino, and nearly every pit boss is aware of. The cost to change them more frequently will lose the casino six figures yearly in time/motion/lost hands.
The idea that you can gain an edge from collusion in UTH is incorrect, in fact it barely reduces the house edge.
What you're suggesting is someone going to jail and e-mailing the casino over basic gaming procedures that everyone is aware of. If he posted about a blackjack game that was deeply dealt at his casino should he go to jail too?
Your lack of education on game protection is showing.
The idea that you can gain an edge from collusion in UTH is incorrect, in fact it barely reduces the house edge.
What you're suggesting is someone going to jail and e-mailing the casino over basic gaming procedures that everyone is aware of. If he posted about a blackjack game that was deeply dealt at his casino should he go to jail too?
Your lack of education on game protection is showing.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:25:34 AM
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Your big mouth is clearly showing.
Don't announced marked cards at your casino on the Internet as their casino employee.
Keep shut until Gaming shuts the tables, this concerns [accidentally] broadcasting free marked cards - don't broadcast "free marked cards on UTH at my Canadian casino in Edmonton - come and hit it while the hitting is good."
Don't announced marked cards at your casino on the Internet as their casino employee.
Keep shut until Gaming shuts the tables, this concerns [accidentally] broadcasting free marked cards - don't broadcast "free marked cards on UTH at my Canadian casino in Edmonton - come and hit it while the hitting is good."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:36:53 AM
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Quote: tongniSimple answer: it's not profitable
Thank you.
And no, I'm not concerned with any ethics here. I believe the onus is on the casino to ensure the game is fair. I'm similarly not concerned about any legal ramifications or even losing my AGLC registration, because I'm not doing anything to make the game less fair.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:43:15 AM
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Quote: tongniThe cost to change them more frequently will lose the casino six figures yearly in time/motion/lost hands.
That I have more difficulty believing, for two reasons. First, for every UTH/3 card table (there are like, three to six per casino here), you're using only 2 decks, compared to 12 for a standard blackjack table. Replacing handheld cards would be a drop in the bucket. Second, squeeze cards in Baccarat are used for one hand, then never used again. The amount of money going into not only the purchase of new cards, but the man hours going into sorting of them after one use to ensure security, are all still worth it just so players can have the excitement of seeing their cards more slowly (and slowing the game down, incidentally).
November 30th, 2015 at 12:48:30 AM
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Quote: tonghi
Simple answer: it's not profitable
Quote: a million other AP players
Yes it is. HIT IT! RAPE IT!
Quote: me
Don't announce game protection or casino faults on the Internet while employed there.p
Quote: ElastoidThank you. And no, I'm not concerned with any ethics here.
And neither are any AP players looking for a score...
Quote: ElastodI believe the onus is on the casino to ensure the game is fair.
But I might be worried about my employees yapping about my game protection faults on the Internet...
Quote: ElastoidI'm similarly not concerned about any legal ramifications or even losing my AGLC registration, because I'm not doing anything to make the game less fair.
Not my job or problem...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 12:52:58 AM
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Quote: ElastoidThat I have more difficulty believing, for two reasons. First, for every UTH/3 card table (there are like, three to six per casino here), you're using only 2 decks, compared to 12 for a standard blackjack table. Replacing handheld cards would be a drop in the bucket.
No, replacing out card decks frequently on UTH is a serious operation problem for the casino pit.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 1:01:47 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanNo, replacing out card decks frequently on UTH is a serious operation problem for the casino pit.
Replacing them frequently isn't necessary. It would suffice to simply swap the deck out once at 9pm on Fridays and Saturdays. As I said, these marks are mainly caused by a shuffle machine, so all the cards get worn about equally. Around the end of the night, they all have minor marks or imperfections on them, but a few of them will be recognizable.
Theoretically, if you had amazing vision, memory and attention to detail, you could memorize and keep track of several of the cards, but I've only been able to spot a few per deck -- ones that have especially large, distinct blotches missing in the letters of the casino name. But either way, all the cards are marked at once. It's not a matter of pulling out individual cards each time -- the solution is replacing the whole deck at a set time, so as not to NEED to pull out individual cards.
I feel like you like to be contrary.
November 30th, 2015 at 1:01:47 AM
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EDIT: double post
November 30th, 2015 at 1:02:48 AM
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Quote: Elastoid[snip]
What casino do you work at?
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready;
To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why.
My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe.
Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
November 30th, 2015 at 1:06:49 AM
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I'm not willing to get into too many specifics. If you found yourself in the Edmonton area, there are only a few casinos here and in the neighboring areas (like St. Albert), so it wouldn't take too much work to find them.
November 30th, 2015 at 1:10:37 AM
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Quote: ElastoidI'm not willing to get into too many specifics. If you found yourself in the Edmonton area, there are only a few casinos here and in the neighboring areas (like St. Albert), so it wouldn't take too much work to find them.
I'm not interested from an advantage point. I may have more sway over getting things fixed in your casino than you do.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready;
To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why.
My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe.
Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
November 30th, 2015 at 1:15:05 AM
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Look, anything that jeopardizes game protection is a real problem for the casino operator.
Cards getting market up by any shuffler will put Shuffle Master and their owner Scientific Gaming on the outs. And the casino that employs you . They pride themselves by their clean game shufflers and on the clean games they offer.
Publicly announcing that marked cards are in play at your casino by any cause is a problem to post on a gambling forum.
Cards getting market up by any shuffler will put Shuffle Master and their owner Scientific Gaming on the outs. And the casino that employs you . They pride themselves by their clean game shufflers and on the clean games they offer.
Publicly announcing that marked cards are in play at your casino by any cause is a problem to post on a gambling forum.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 1:17:59 AM
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Quote: DodsferdI'm not interested from an advantage point. I may have more sway over getting things fixed in your casino than you do.
Then my answer would still be the same. It's a problem at more than one casino, so the smart thing would be to investigate it as a widespread issue, rather than one that's localized to a single place.
Casinos here are small, we're talking fewer than 200 dealers at any given location, so it's best that I not get any more specific.
November 30th, 2015 at 1:21:52 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanLook, anything that jeopardizes game protection is a real problem for the casino operator.
Cards getting market up by any shuffler will put Shuffle Master and their owner Scientific Gaming on the outs. And the casino that employs you . They pride themselves by their clean game shufflers and on the clean games they offer.
Publicly announcing that marked cards are in play at your casino by any cause is a problem to post on a gambling forum.
If the Shuffle Master isn't cleaned regularly, it'll get gunk on cards and mark them that way. If the cards used are too cheap and are not replaced often enough, it'll mark them that way. Both of these are issues of maintenance and proper use, which would not reflect poorly on any company except the one who fails to maintain the proper standards.
And the notion that anyone where I work takes pride in anything (beyond arriving early enough to be first on the EO list) is laughable, sir. I laugh at that notion.
November 30th, 2015 at 3:39:08 AM
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LOL @ PGD's comment saying it's "collusion"! Do you even know what collusion is?
I agree with you, this type of info shouldn't be posted online publicly. Publicly posting information can burn plays. Figure out what it's worth (hourly EV) and sell the information to APs, assuming it's worth it. Might be interested in chatting some, I have some questions if you don't mind, I may PM you.
I recommend being cautious as to what PGD says when it comes to this kind of stuff, as he's closer to the "casinos can do no wrong & APs are evil" side of the fence.
I agree with you, this type of info shouldn't be posted online publicly. Publicly posting information can burn plays. Figure out what it's worth (hourly EV) and sell the information to APs, assuming it's worth it. Might be interested in chatting some, I have some questions if you don't mind, I may PM you.
I recommend being cautious as to what PGD says when it comes to this kind of stuff, as he's closer to the "casinos can do no wrong & APs are evil" side of the fence.
November 30th, 2015 at 6:39:17 AM
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Quote: RSLOL @ PGD's comment saying it's "collusion"! Do you even know what collusion is?
I agree with you, this type of info shouldn't be posted online publicly. Publicly posting information can burn plays. Figure out what it's worth (hourly EV) and sell the information to APs, assuming it's worth it. Might be interested in chatting some, I have some questions if you don't mind, I may PM you.
I recommend being cautious as to what PGD says when it comes to this kind of stuff, as he's closer to the "casinos can do no wrong & APs are evil" side of the fence.
I can't deny that for the most part, and they can be the bad guys on occasion, too. When I was a dealer, I worked for them, and appreciated them, and the job and the start in the business way back when.
If something wasn't right with a game's protection, I report it to them internally, so it can be closed off or cleaned up.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 7:26:03 AM
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I wouldn't play this game. Smells of a complete set up.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 30th, 2015 at 8:03:58 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanFirst of all, if you're a casino dealer, and you're looking to exploit casino game weaknesses in order to "work" with player-agents to exploit marked cards as a situation "rife with potential exploits," then you should be behind bars, with your backside being rife with potential exploits from your fellow cell mates. Based on what we're hearing, this is the thing that really should be exploited.
Prison rape is still rape. the punishment is time out of society, not physical and sexual brutality. The culture of "you get what you deserve" is part of the reason it perpetuates without consequences: "He's a prisoner, what did you expect?"
Surprising coming from you, Dan.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 30th, 2015 at 8:27:19 AM
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And taking advantage of marked cards as a casino employee is more than just highly questionable, more than just a fire-able offensive.
You can get arrested by gaming. And if you end up in the joint, then yes, bad things can indeed happen.
The point is, think it through. Is it worth getting fired over? No.
Can ripping off your employer be criminal? Yes, in many cases. Risking firing, or being arrested on criminal charges worth it? No. Working as an agent isn't like card-counting, which is legal. It is illegal to be an internal agent. And tempting.
I know of one incident where some kid was capping bets on a dealer for small amounts just for s**ts and giggles. He capped TWO $3 bets to $6 twice.
The casino manager decided NOT to "give the kid a break," and sought to have charges filed. He called the police, the kid was arrested, and this was the full intent of his actions. And I supposed this scenario THEN crossed the young man's mind - a bit late I might add. And as far as the casino manager was concerned, the kid deserved the criminal complaint. The dealer, too, was under suspicion, but was just incompetent and fired.
Everyone doing time thought either it was "not to bad to do" or that it is possible to be gotten away with. I had a friend a while back who found a way to rip off checks, for some not so big money. Average suit-and-tie corporate drone. It worked for a while, paid the bills, had some fun, thought he had totally gotten away with it until a warrant went on him. Very clever scheme. No one reported him, but the affected company figured it out. He did 18 months in Otisville. I remember getting a call and saying "you are WHERE??!!" Thankfully he was 6'5" and all muscle and can defend himself. Still a VERY BAD trip. At the time, he thought it was a cinch, and "no big deal." Looking back, He was amazed at what he was thinking at the time.
I'm not saying what happens in prison is acceptable, what I am saying is that the reality of doing a stint involves horrible things, and I suspect authorities don't mind the added deterrent fear factor. I will say that the casino manager in the casino incident obviously was not concerned at all about saving the kid's whatever, he was concerned about any B.S going down in his property and wanted to stop it hard. People are not always compassionate about being ripped off; the old days of Vegas involved beatings and even killings against internal crap going down.
This is what you're risking at times. Know it, think it through. One arrest can change the whole course of a person's life, and be a bad trip.
You can get arrested by gaming. And if you end up in the joint, then yes, bad things can indeed happen.
The point is, think it through. Is it worth getting fired over? No.
Can ripping off your employer be criminal? Yes, in many cases. Risking firing, or being arrested on criminal charges worth it? No. Working as an agent isn't like card-counting, which is legal. It is illegal to be an internal agent. And tempting.
I know of one incident where some kid was capping bets on a dealer for small amounts just for s**ts and giggles. He capped TWO $3 bets to $6 twice.
The casino manager decided NOT to "give the kid a break," and sought to have charges filed. He called the police, the kid was arrested, and this was the full intent of his actions. And I supposed this scenario THEN crossed the young man's mind - a bit late I might add. And as far as the casino manager was concerned, the kid deserved the criminal complaint. The dealer, too, was under suspicion, but was just incompetent and fired.
Everyone doing time thought either it was "not to bad to do" or that it is possible to be gotten away with. I had a friend a while back who found a way to rip off checks, for some not so big money. Average suit-and-tie corporate drone. It worked for a while, paid the bills, had some fun, thought he had totally gotten away with it until a warrant went on him. Very clever scheme. No one reported him, but the affected company figured it out. He did 18 months in Otisville. I remember getting a call and saying "you are WHERE??!!" Thankfully he was 6'5" and all muscle and can defend himself. Still a VERY BAD trip. At the time, he thought it was a cinch, and "no big deal." Looking back, He was amazed at what he was thinking at the time.
I'm not saying what happens in prison is acceptable, what I am saying is that the reality of doing a stint involves horrible things, and I suspect authorities don't mind the added deterrent fear factor. I will say that the casino manager in the casino incident obviously was not concerned at all about saving the kid's whatever, he was concerned about any B.S going down in his property and wanted to stop it hard. People are not always compassionate about being ripped off; the old days of Vegas involved beatings and even killings against internal crap going down.
This is what you're risking at times. Know it, think it through. One arrest can change the whole course of a person's life, and be a bad trip.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 9:39:16 AM
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" Cards getting market up by any shuffler will put Shuffle Master and their owner Scientific Gaming on the outs. And the casino that employs you . They pride themselves by their clean game shufflers and on the clean games they offer. "
So someone should make Scientific Gaming aware of this. Any volunteers ? ... Dan ?
So someone should make Scientific Gaming aware of this. Any volunteers ? ... Dan ?
November 30th, 2015 at 9:50:27 AM
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Shuffle and Scientific games are very up on the maintenance and service of their equipment IF the casino operator calls in for maintenance and servicing when it is required.
A lot of the performance issues and concerns are reported by the dealers on the tables, and they report issues and concerns of their tables' equipment to floor supervision and pit management, to swap out bad or improperly running shuffler machines. Most casinos have reserve machines ready-to-go, where floor supervisors can swap out bad machines on a dealer's notification. In this regard, the assumption is that the dealer seeks and notifies for proper equipment replacement for game protection. A thousand times I must have said on a game "floor - need to swap out the shuffler, it is jamming/mangling cards/etc." and the floorman or pit boss swaps out a machine by sliding out the bad machine and sliding in the good machine. The floor knows when a machine is bad because they rely on their dealers to alert the floor.
A lot of the performance issues and concerns are reported by the dealers on the tables, and they report issues and concerns of their tables' equipment to floor supervision and pit management, to swap out bad or improperly running shuffler machines. Most casinos have reserve machines ready-to-go, where floor supervisors can swap out bad machines on a dealer's notification. In this regard, the assumption is that the dealer seeks and notifies for proper equipment replacement for game protection. A thousand times I must have said on a game "floor - need to swap out the shuffler, it is jamming/mangling cards/etc." and the floorman or pit boss swaps out a machine by sliding out the bad machine and sliding in the good machine. The floor knows when a machine is bad because they rely on their dealers to alert the floor.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 11:02:09 AM
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PGD, what is it that OP said is illegal or getting-fired-worthy? As far as I can tell he's talking about other casinos in his area.
November 30th, 2015 at 11:16:51 AM
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Quote: RSPGD, what is it that OP said is illegal or getting-fired-worthy? As far as I can tell he's talking about other casinos in his area.
Shh, he's in his own little world, talking about prison rape and Vegas murders.
I mean, only one of the casinos in this area is fancy enough to have a craps table. ONE craps table. He's comparing apples and 1980's Vegas.
November 30th, 2015 at 11:34:11 AM
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Own little world?
Real dealers and real players get more than 86-ed or fired, they get arrested. Tell us, Elastoid - What do you think happens if you use marked cards to pull $$ from a casino? Or in an Indian casino?
We often have links to articles on dealer and player scams, where the dealers get arrested, to do several years of time. Ugly. This is in 2015, and in the real world, Elastoid.
I've seen people carted off by Metro (Las Vegas Police): marked cards, capping and pinching bets, etc. What do you think happens? High school detention after class?
So tell us, Elastoid - What would anyone's career path look like when a background check pops up a mug shot for casino fraud? I would say not good. We are considering using marked cards here, so you tell us.
Real dealers and real players get more than 86-ed or fired, they get arrested. Tell us, Elastoid - What do you think happens if you use marked cards to pull $$ from a casino? Or in an Indian casino?
We often have links to articles on dealer and player scams, where the dealers get arrested, to do several years of time. Ugly. This is in 2015, and in the real world, Elastoid.
I've seen people carted off by Metro (Las Vegas Police): marked cards, capping and pinching bets, etc. What do you think happens? High school detention after class?
So tell us, Elastoid - What would anyone's career path look like when a background check pops up a mug shot for casino fraud? I would say not good. We are considering using marked cards here, so you tell us.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 11:41:48 AM
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The players are not marking the cards, therefore they aren't committing a crime.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 30th, 2015 at 11:56:08 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesThe players are not marking the cards, therefore they aren't committing a crime.
Correct. If a dealer or casino employee enables and uses marked card info with a player, that's different.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 3:40:47 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanCorrect. If a dealer or casino employee enables and uses marked card info with a player, that's different.
“He gave himself an advantage which the game precludes,” Judge John Mitting said, as Bloomberg reported. “This is in my view cheating.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/09/famed-poker-pro-phil-ivey-accused-of-cheating-by-casino-loses-court-case-and-12-million/
Then he pulled same trick at Borgata. Now he is suing Borgata.
"As I said in court, it's not in my nature to cheat -- and I would never do anything to risk my reputation."
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/07/phil-ivey-files-countersuit-against-borgata-22378.htm
Guess he forgot he has already been found guilty in a court of law.
November 30th, 2015 at 5:42:28 PM
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In some countries when a woman is raped they blame the woman even though it's obviously the rapists fault. So just because a judge who's probably in bed with the casino's makes a ruling it doesn't really mean it's the correct ruling.
In the Ivey case it's the casino's fault but yet they blame Ivey.
In the Ivey case it's the casino's fault but yet they blame Ivey.
Happy days are here again
November 30th, 2015 at 6:04:05 PM
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Of course the judge is probably in bed with the casino. Absolutely. Beyond the shadow of a doubt.
November 30th, 2015 at 6:05:41 PM
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Not bed. Just their wallets.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 30th, 2015 at 6:09:32 PM
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You are so right. Especially those English judges. Nor a RUMPOLE in the bunch.
November 30th, 2015 at 7:19:28 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan... then you should be behind bars, with your backside being rife with potential exploits from your fellow cell mates.
Take a deep breath, Dan, and calm down. Without passing judgment on the morality of it, discussing ways to exploit casino mistakes and faulty equipment is allowed on this site. Expressing opinions on the morality and consequences is also allowed.
Let's focus on the vulnerability/opportunity at hand without being too judgmental about it. I have a feeling a suspension is coming soon if we don't lower the temperature on this thread.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 30th, 2015 at 9:34:02 PM
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Yes, agree.
At the time, (and opened in another window) I was checking my Chase bank account for pending debits. I just discovered my bank account was hit by ID fraud. I saw red on ALL the schemers and scammers of the world! (Actually, I also had a flood of late emails that said "From Chase: a debit of $x,xxx.xx was debited on..." kind of thing.)
We had our mailboxes recently broken into, and an un-deposited check back to us gave some "John Q. Public" our routing number and account number. Bad.
I needed the cash on account ready-to-go to be able to fly me and my wife to Alabama on a moment's notice because something happened to my mother (she's 85) and she's in the I.C.U. with CHF, kidney failure, and internal hemorrhaging. Doctors are baffled and having trouble keeping her stable. Let me tell you I wanted this guy and all like him 100% gone. Prison life/society in its non-heavenly forms seemed like a society the guy earned and deserved.
Today I called the one credit card company listed as a withdrawer (he also opened a new account with a deposit withdrawn from my bank) and I asked them "Do I have an account with you??!! They told me "No, Sir, you do not" - so I asked then "Then why did you deduct $x,xxx.xx from my account?" This was quickly followed by "sorry, Sir, we can't help you, you'll have to call YOUR bank." What?!
I went to my bank and spoke with a manager. Very helpful. Closed the current account, opened a new one, and I asked "since there are some ACH withdrawals (account + routing number withdrawals), I suppose we can have a way to track down the individual who did this? The answer was "Yes, it had to have been transferred to an account with government ID, and it has to be domestic, as out-of-country withdrawals would have been flagged pending your approval.
So I actually asked, "so it is possible to file a criminal complaint, then?" to which she answered "yes, but it is some trouble. It'll lead somewhere, and if they're amateurs, they are caught."
I had to really think about this. Maybe we should have a vote on what to do. Would be interested on what the vote is.
At the time, (and opened in another window) I was checking my Chase bank account for pending debits. I just discovered my bank account was hit by ID fraud. I saw red on ALL the schemers and scammers of the world! (Actually, I also had a flood of late emails that said "From Chase: a debit of $x,xxx.xx was debited on..." kind of thing.)
We had our mailboxes recently broken into, and an un-deposited check back to us gave some "John Q. Public" our routing number and account number. Bad.
I needed the cash on account ready-to-go to be able to fly me and my wife to Alabama on a moment's notice because something happened to my mother (she's 85) and she's in the I.C.U. with CHF, kidney failure, and internal hemorrhaging. Doctors are baffled and having trouble keeping her stable. Let me tell you I wanted this guy and all like him 100% gone. Prison life/society in its non-heavenly forms seemed like a society the guy earned and deserved.
Today I called the one credit card company listed as a withdrawer (he also opened a new account with a deposit withdrawn from my bank) and I asked them "Do I have an account with you??!! They told me "No, Sir, you do not" - so I asked then "Then why did you deduct $x,xxx.xx from my account?" This was quickly followed by "sorry, Sir, we can't help you, you'll have to call YOUR bank." What?!
I went to my bank and spoke with a manager. Very helpful. Closed the current account, opened a new one, and I asked "since there are some ACH withdrawals (account + routing number withdrawals), I suppose we can have a way to track down the individual who did this? The answer was "Yes, it had to have been transferred to an account with government ID, and it has to be domestic, as out-of-country withdrawals would have been flagged pending your approval.
So I actually asked, "so it is possible to file a criminal complaint, then?" to which she answered "yes, but it is some trouble. It'll lead somewhere, and if they're amateurs, they are caught."
I had to really think about this. Maybe we should have a vote on what to do. Would be interested on what the vote is.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 10:32:46 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanOwn little world?
Real dealers and real players get more than 86-ed or fired, they get arrested. Tell us, Elastoid - What do you think happens if you use marked cards to pull $$ from a casino? Or in an Indian casino?
We often have links to articles on dealer and player scams, where the dealers get arrested, to do several years of time. Ugly. This is in 2015, and in the real world, Elastoid.
I've seen people carted off by Metro (Las Vegas Police): marked cards, capping and pinching bets, etc. What do you think happens? High school detention after class?
So tell us, Elastoid - What would anyone's career path look like when a background check pops up a mug shot for casino fraud? I would say not good. We are considering using marked cards here, so you tell us.
You're comparing apples and oranges, again. It seems you think LEGAL PLAY is actually illegal. Or are you saying using this type of info in Canada is illegal? Either that, or whatever it is you wrote above (quoted) has nothing to do with this thread, but wrote it for some reason. Kind of like the bank/Alabama/fraud/mother post. My condolences to your mother.
My concern would be Canadian laws for this. And the cold. Damn the cold.
November 30th, 2015 at 10:45:05 PM
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This is really absurd. Dan is drawing a parallel between playing warped cards (a legal advantage play) and banking theft.
You do realize that cheap cards are the #1 cause of warped cards, right? They also save the casino cents per deck, which really add up when you go through hundreds of thousands in a given year. It's strictly a business decision. The reason the pit boss wants you to STFU is because the Director of Table Games sat and considered it and decided that saving five or six figures a year by buying cheaper cards was worth the times when a single card becomes deformed on a busy Friday for a few hours. Dan is only trying to cost the casino money by shaking the tree/wishing sodomy on people who notice such things. Less money for the casino, more money for the playing card manufacturers.
The idea that any game protection gain could equal the amount saved by a casino in cheaper decks is laughable. Use cheap decks and have procedures to protect yourself. That said, this is just a normal consequence of heavily played cards and not likely to result in much positive expectation. The same situation is available at hundreds of small casinos, and the casino that is more worried about warped cards than employee theft is penny wise and pound foolish.
You do realize that cheap cards are the #1 cause of warped cards, right? They also save the casino cents per deck, which really add up when you go through hundreds of thousands in a given year. It's strictly a business decision. The reason the pit boss wants you to STFU is because the Director of Table Games sat and considered it and decided that saving five or six figures a year by buying cheaper cards was worth the times when a single card becomes deformed on a busy Friday for a few hours. Dan is only trying to cost the casino money by shaking the tree/wishing sodomy on people who notice such things. Less money for the casino, more money for the playing card manufacturers.
The idea that any game protection gain could equal the amount saved by a casino in cheaper decks is laughable. Use cheap decks and have procedures to protect yourself. That said, this is just a normal consequence of heavily played cards and not likely to result in much positive expectation. The same situation is available at hundreds of small casinos, and the casino that is more worried about warped cards than employee theft is penny wise and pound foolish.
November 30th, 2015 at 11:28:04 PM
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No, I said I was in an angry state of mind over being cleaned out when I wrote it, but I do admit that I did associate "scams with scams," as looking to rip off someone, whether a business or an individual.
Casinos buy cards of a certain standard ("spec") that work fine in play. Whether cards become deliberately marked or fortuitously marked, taking advantage of it corrupt, possibly criminal.
And no, I am not trying to cost the casino money; many game protection openings occur through lack of maintenance, and that's just addressed by following procedure (unless making a choice to deliberately not report a game protection situation for personal gain.) Typically, sloppy procedures, whether in dealing or equipment maintenance can give big openings to AP.
The idea that game protection gain could produce greater savings and is often cost-effective is ridiculed, as the concept of a casino implementing strong game protection to help its business is seen as anathema by those who wish to have weak game protection.
And yes, many casinos are penny-wise and pound foolish, but casinos have to worry about any breaches in game protection that can cost them; I never at any time advocated that casinos focus on card quality or maintenance or other petty issues over employee theft; I said that employee malfeasance is a big issue (including deliberately not reporting or deliberately allowing bad equipment to allow theft, in relation to game protection). I also don't think tongni is a casino manager who knows how to run a casino business, and it's damn easy to say somewhere that the typical casino manager is a moron who is doing it wrong.
As for what happens to someone who chooses to do wrong, who signs up for it and then pays a harsh price (which would be a dealer allowing gaffed play in money action), I have little sympathy for either the corporate embezzler, auto thief, or dealer casino cheat. I will say that, while they often know what they're getting into, oftentimes they don't, falling into it thinking "this is easy, let's look into doing this!", only find out otherwise, to which they say in the end "I didn't sign up for this!" if things go wrong. But they did.
Casinos buy cards of a certain standard ("spec") that work fine in play. Whether cards become deliberately marked or fortuitously marked, taking advantage of it corrupt, possibly criminal.
And no, I am not trying to cost the casino money; many game protection openings occur through lack of maintenance, and that's just addressed by following procedure (unless making a choice to deliberately not report a game protection situation for personal gain.) Typically, sloppy procedures, whether in dealing or equipment maintenance can give big openings to AP.
The idea that game protection gain could produce greater savings and is often cost-effective is ridiculed, as the concept of a casino implementing strong game protection to help its business is seen as anathema by those who wish to have weak game protection.
And yes, many casinos are penny-wise and pound foolish, but casinos have to worry about any breaches in game protection that can cost them; I never at any time advocated that casinos focus on card quality or maintenance or other petty issues over employee theft; I said that employee malfeasance is a big issue (including deliberately not reporting or deliberately allowing bad equipment to allow theft, in relation to game protection). I also don't think tongni is a casino manager who knows how to run a casino business, and it's damn easy to say somewhere that the typical casino manager is a moron who is doing it wrong.
As for what happens to someone who chooses to do wrong, who signs up for it and then pays a harsh price (which would be a dealer allowing gaffed play in money action), I have little sympathy for either the corporate embezzler, auto thief, or dealer casino cheat. I will say that, while they often know what they're getting into, oftentimes they don't, falling into it thinking "this is easy, let's look into doing this!", only find out otherwise, to which they say in the end "I didn't sign up for this!" if things go wrong. But they did.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
November 30th, 2015 at 11:39:42 PM
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Quote: PGDWhether cards become deliberately marked or fortuitously marked, taking advantage of it corrupt, possibly criminal.
Why even say that? Please stop lying.
November 30th, 2015 at 11:45:23 PM
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Quote: RSQuote: PGDWhether cards become deliberately marked or fortuitously marked, taking advantage of it corrupt, possibly criminal.
Why even say that? Please stop lying.
If I dealt a game with a scenario to make some extra money from a gaffe or fault that I could use to my personal (financial) advantage, I know it would it would be a real problem if busted: fired, and arrested by gaming. Now....How exactly is this lying? Why would this scenario or statement even upset you? I would have it coming, this should delight people here.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 1st, 2015 at 12:08:06 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanQuote: RSQuote: PGDWhether cards become deliberately marked or fortuitously marked, taking advantage of it corrupt, possibly criminal.
Why even say that? Please stop lying.
If I dealt a game with a scenario to make some extra money from a gaffe or fault that I could use to my personal (financial) advantage, I know it would it would be a real problem if busted: fired, and arrested by gaming. Now....How exactly is this lying? Why would this scenario or statement even upset you? I would have it coming, this should delight people here.
And he's not dealing the game with the fault. Playing a game where the shuffling machine alters the cards is not illegal. Why would you get arrested for playing such a game? (Well rather, why would you legally get arrested for playing such a game, since illegal arrests do happen?) Getting fired for doing that? If so, I think he'd have a strong-enough case against his employer....not to mention, getting fired isn't illegal.
December 1st, 2015 at 12:16:00 AM
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Quote: tongniThis is really absurd. Dan is drawing a parallel between playing warped cards (a legal advantage play) and banking theft.
You do realize that cheap cards are the #1 cause of warped cards, right? They also save the casino cents per deck, which really add up when you go through hundreds of thousands in a given year. It's strictly a business decision. The reason the pit boss wants you to STFU is because the Director of Table Games sat and considered it and decided that saving five or six figures a year by buying cheaper cards was worth the times when a single card becomes deformed on a busy Friday for a few hours. Dan is only trying to cost the casino money by shaking the tree/wishing sodomy on people who notice such things. Less money for the casino, more money for the playing card manufacturers.
The idea that any game protection gain could equal the amount saved by a casino in cheaper decks is laughable. Use cheap decks and have procedures to protect yourself. That said, this is just a normal consequence of heavily played cards and not likely to result in much positive expectation. The same situation is available at hundreds of small casinos, and the casino that is more worried about warped cards than employee theft is penny wise and pound foolish.
+1
get second you pig
December 1st, 2015 at 1:25:02 AM
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Quote: RS
And he's not dealing the game with the fault. Playing a game where the shuffling machine alters the cards is not illegal. Why would you get arrested for playing such a game? (Well rather, why would you legally get arrested for playing such a game, since illegal arrests do happen?) Getting fired for doing that? If so, I think he'd have a strong-enough case against his employer....not to mention, getting fired isn't illegal.
No, it is not illegal, for the player. But for the dealer to know that certain cards are marked, and to allow it for advantage, is a fire-able offense; now, to further participate in it for profit then it really crosses the line.
Such things are often and naturally viewed as an opportunity for freebies to be taken, with zero consideration or repercussions, which may be the case for the players, less so for a dealer to float down these roads. (For that matter, I know that if a back entrance to an electronics store were open, and free I-phones were there for the easy taking, they would be naturally disappear, with many viewing it as just an opportunity for a little good fortune. This is how exactly and often naturally how people think.) But there is an attitude of it being somehow more okay against a casino business, but less so for another type of business when among a lot of gamblers. This is present, too, in spades.
When we get to traveling down this opportunity/freebie path when it presents itself, (and it is so easy to do), any sort of attention or counter-view to its real nature is often met with annoyance, a bubble bursting, a disruption of the "some gravy for me" happy views or aspects on it. As I mentioned, I had a office drone friend from a while back once stumble across an AP opportunity of sorts involving checks that looked real risk-free and easy to do. He told no one, almost got away with it, felt that it was just fine, a blessing as well as the fruits of his astuteness and ingenuity. Up to a point. I'm sure the guy (or gal) who tapped my bank account feels the same way: "Jim, this is BRILLIANT, it's FREE MONEY! YESSS! I'm so awesome and brilliant with this!...." Many people just think this way when presented with an opportunity.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
