UTH - proper procedure to hand shuffle and hand deal this game
August 23rd, 2015 at 9:56:12 PM
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I went over to my local Indian casino to play a few hours of UTH this afternoon. There is only one table and it’s a Shuffle Master licensed game. It’s been there about six months. Most dealers are clueless about the game and just follow the policies and procedures determined by management.
When I got there the SM machine was out of service and the game was being hand shuffled/hand dealt while the SM was being fixed. I’ve never sat at a hand shuffled/hand dealt game of UTH before. I sat in with my usual $15-$15 ante bet. After about two hands I noticed that the method of dealing the game was like this: Hand shuffle with dealer using a cut card to cut the deck (players not permitted to use cut card) before placing the deck in the shoe. First two cards out of the shoe became the turn/river cards and the next three cards became the flop cards. Then two cards to each player (seat 1 first) and finally two cards to the dealer. This seemed improper to me. I thought that the first three cards out of the shoe should be the flop and the next two cards should be the turn/river cards. I brought it to the dealers attention and got rebuffed – the famous “We have policies and procedures to follow and this is how we’re taught to hand deal the game”. I then asked the floor person about the dealing procedure. I got the same answer from her. I did argue with her (heatedly) that I believed their procedure was wrong explaining how the cards come out of the SM machine. She didn’t care and became obstinate and stubborn. Makes sense – she works for the casino.
After about 5 hands (very slow between hands), the SM was put back in service. I watched the cards come out of the shuffler and it looked like this: Five cards came out in a stack and the top card being the first card in order. The dealer place those cards in from him and ‘fanned’ them from right to left so that the top three cards became the flop and the bottom two cards became the turn/river cards. I showed the floor person what was happening and she refused to acknowledge what I and two other players had observed with the SM and explaining the difference between the SM and hand dealt procedure. After about 6 hands the SM machine crashed again. The floor person came over and told the dealer (a different one) to hand shuffle/hand deal the game and proceeded to show him the casino’s method of shuffling and dealing.
With the game being hand dealt I didn’t think the players were getting a fair shake when it came to making the 2X bet on the flop. Does the sequence matter? We were looking at the last three cards out of the shoe as the flop. Bizarre. That’s when I quit.
Hmmm . . . maybe I’m wrong. But does anyone know the proper way to hand shuffle and hand deal UTH?
When I got there the SM machine was out of service and the game was being hand shuffled/hand dealt while the SM was being fixed. I’ve never sat at a hand shuffled/hand dealt game of UTH before. I sat in with my usual $15-$15 ante bet. After about two hands I noticed that the method of dealing the game was like this: Hand shuffle with dealer using a cut card to cut the deck (players not permitted to use cut card) before placing the deck in the shoe. First two cards out of the shoe became the turn/river cards and the next three cards became the flop cards. Then two cards to each player (seat 1 first) and finally two cards to the dealer. This seemed improper to me. I thought that the first three cards out of the shoe should be the flop and the next two cards should be the turn/river cards. I brought it to the dealers attention and got rebuffed – the famous “We have policies and procedures to follow and this is how we’re taught to hand deal the game”. I then asked the floor person about the dealing procedure. I got the same answer from her. I did argue with her (heatedly) that I believed their procedure was wrong explaining how the cards come out of the SM machine. She didn’t care and became obstinate and stubborn. Makes sense – she works for the casino.
After about 5 hands (very slow between hands), the SM was put back in service. I watched the cards come out of the shuffler and it looked like this: Five cards came out in a stack and the top card being the first card in order. The dealer place those cards in from him and ‘fanned’ them from right to left so that the top three cards became the flop and the bottom two cards became the turn/river cards. I showed the floor person what was happening and she refused to acknowledge what I and two other players had observed with the SM and explaining the difference between the SM and hand dealt procedure. After about 6 hands the SM machine crashed again. The floor person came over and told the dealer (a different one) to hand shuffle/hand deal the game and proceeded to show him the casino’s method of shuffling and dealing.
With the game being hand dealt I didn’t think the players were getting a fair shake when it came to making the 2X bet on the flop. Does the sequence matter? We were looking at the last three cards out of the shoe as the flop. Bizarre. That’s when I quit.
Hmmm . . . maybe I’m wrong. But does anyone know the proper way to hand shuffle and hand deal UTH?
August 23rd, 2015 at 10:31:52 PM
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Why would it matter? A random card is a random card. There is no "proper way" - it's up to each casino to follow their own policies and procedures.
August 23rd, 2015 at 10:33:06 PM
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It makes no difference. Even when used with the shuffler, some places spread the cards from left to right and others right to left. I've probably seen UTH dealt ten different ways.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 24th, 2015 at 1:39:47 AM
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This is interesting....this very topic game up before: many places manually deal UTH.
1. Dealer completes a full single deal shuffle.
2. Dealer cut (aka "Poker cut");
3. Dealer then deals: Participating players get two hole cards only and decide to check or raise 4x. Do NOT deal the community board or dealer's hand - even face down - until these cards are necessary in the game, as it can destroy game protection. Why deal any community board or dealer's hand cards before they are necessary (and only needed at the proper points) -- when players can hold card or Advantage-Play this information early on??
4. Players Raise 4x, 3x or check.
5. Dealer deals the flop (three community cards) only.
6. Players make a 2x raise or check.
7. Dealer deals turn and River cards, and players call 1x or fold.
8. Dealer deals his two-card hand, and takes or pays the remaining players.
1. Dealer completes a full single deal shuffle.
2. Dealer cut (aka "Poker cut");
3. Dealer then deals: Participating players get two hole cards only and decide to check or raise 4x. Do NOT deal the community board or dealer's hand - even face down - until these cards are necessary in the game, as it can destroy game protection. Why deal any community board or dealer's hand cards before they are necessary (and only needed at the proper points) -- when players can hold card or Advantage-Play this information early on??
4. Players Raise 4x, 3x or check.
5. Dealer deals the flop (three community cards) only.
6. Players make a 2x raise or check.
7. Dealer deals turn and River cards, and players call 1x or fold.
8. Dealer deals his two-card hand, and takes or pays the remaining players.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 24th, 2015 at 5:05:37 AM
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hole card Dan!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
August 24th, 2015 at 5:19:16 AM
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Quote: CharmedQuarkDoes the sequence matter?
As previously mentioned, no, sequence doesn't matter. Random is random.
The thing to worry about is if a dealer's procedure changes from round to round.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 24th, 2015 at 11:32:33 PM
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Thanks for the replies.
So there is no set standard procedure to hand deal UTH. It's left up to the casino to set it's own procedure.
The cards can be dealt in any manner or sequence - burning cards permitted - use of shoe optional. Just as long as each player and the dealer get two hole cards and there is a five card board, any three of which can be used as the flop and remaining two as the turn/river cards in any order.
So there is no set standard procedure to hand deal UTH. It's left up to the casino to set it's own procedure.
The cards can be dealt in any manner or sequence - burning cards permitted - use of shoe optional. Just as long as each player and the dealer get two hole cards and there is a five card board, any three of which can be used as the flop and remaining two as the turn/river cards in any order.
August 25th, 2015 at 12:25:04 AM
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Actually, the sequence of card dealing/distribution does matter very greatly, - and are generally extremely well defined - as far as proper game protection is concerned, as well as for proper surveillance and dealing procedure, and for the very casino or card room that they're trying to protect as management workers or executives.
Generally, this information will or should come come from the ICs ("Internal Control Documents") that they have access to, as the casino or card room executive that they pretend to be. These are often posted online for casino management (Washington State is but one example here. Click on Gaming Activities, then on [approved] Card Game Rules, and you've got the work information. They can also contact their local Shuffle master rep who sold the UTH game, and to whom they pay monthly game lease fees on. It must have been part of the sales and lease kit that got their UTH game into the card room or casino tha is run.
But if they work for, - or in, - the gaming industry, and one is asking HERE for game protection help on live action table games from AP players on an AP forum (for the most part), they are either full of malarkey, or they do not know the job from a damn hole in the wall. wow...................scary and pathetic......
They are either tricksters (a fraud outfit not in compliance), or a complete incompetent, and there is no other scenario. I'm sorry to be so rough here, but I am skeptical. Never saw such a situation. Did see many times SHFL workers training dealers....Card rooms generally live in fear of compliance...
They are required to contact their immediate management, or review the Internal Control Documents they have in place, or contact the local Gaming Control Board office (Enforcement Division), for help on these matters, and not with someone asking an Advantage Players gambling forum on how to properly run the card room through a player. That's a beaut. Or at least the Shuffle Master Sales Rep who sold or leased them the UTH game they have. They generally come with an install kit and operations kit, and with a few hours of dealer and management training.
Can you state for us the casino or Gaming operator that they work for? (Boyd Gaming, MGM Resorts, Station Casinos, the Cannery group, Tribal casino so-and-so-, etc,) if you can? Or the Gaming Control Board Enforcement that this gaming outfit falls under? .....You caught some attention here....
Generally, this information will or should come come from the ICs ("Internal Control Documents") that they have access to, as the casino or card room executive that they pretend to be. These are often posted online for casino management (Washington State is but one example here. Click on Gaming Activities, then on [approved] Card Game Rules, and you've got the work information. They can also contact their local Shuffle master rep who sold the UTH game, and to whom they pay monthly game lease fees on. It must have been part of the sales and lease kit that got their UTH game into the card room or casino tha is run.
But if they work for, - or in, - the gaming industry, and one is asking HERE for game protection help on live action table games from AP players on an AP forum (for the most part), they are either full of malarkey, or they do not know the job from a damn hole in the wall. wow...................scary and pathetic......
They are either tricksters (a fraud outfit not in compliance), or a complete incompetent, and there is no other scenario. I'm sorry to be so rough here, but I am skeptical. Never saw such a situation. Did see many times SHFL workers training dealers....Card rooms generally live in fear of compliance...
They are required to contact their immediate management, or review the Internal Control Documents they have in place, or contact the local Gaming Control Board office (Enforcement Division), for help on these matters, and not with someone asking an Advantage Players gambling forum on how to properly run the card room through a player. That's a beaut. Or at least the Shuffle Master Sales Rep who sold or leased them the UTH game they have. They generally come with an install kit and operations kit, and with a few hours of dealer and management training.
Can you state for us the casino or Gaming operator that they work for? (Boyd Gaming, MGM Resorts, Station Casinos, the Cannery group, Tribal casino so-and-so-, etc,) if you can? Or the Gaming Control Board Enforcement that this gaming outfit falls under? .....You caught some attention here....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 25th, 2015 at 7:48:47 AM
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Dan, SHOVE IT!! The OP is not interested in AP at all for crying out loud and neither are we in this thread. He/she was ONLY concerned about the community cards dealt left to right or right to left. Nothing else.. get a damn life!
Quote OP:
"Hand shuffle with dealer using a cut card to cut the deck (players not permitted to use cut card) before placing the deck in the shoe. First two cards out of the shoe became the turn/river cards and the next three cards became the flop cards. Then two cards to each player (seat 1 first) and finally two cards to the dealer."
Seems to me the cards were slid out of a shoe and not exposed during the dealing process.
Quote OP:
"Hand shuffle with dealer using a cut card to cut the deck (players not permitted to use cut card) before placing the deck in the shoe. First two cards out of the shoe became the turn/river cards and the next three cards became the flop cards. Then two cards to each player (seat 1 first) and finally two cards to the dealer."
Seems to me the cards were slid out of a shoe and not exposed during the dealing process.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 25th, 2015 at 12:39:06 PM
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No, I have no issue with the OP - the issue and annoyance is with the card room and their slop.
The attention to detail in procedure, for both the management and dealers, is usually a thousand times as strict with casinos, - especially the larger chains, and it has to be. (The account was akin watching people drive on the wrong side of the road and on the highway, or watching people prepare your food under the most of unsanitary conditions. I would say something about a dangerous food prep kitchen in a restaurant.)
We require the blackjack dealers who, after hitting the cut card at the end of the round, split the slug of the remaining deck, and then split that slug into three, to plug the deck sitting in the discard rack in three areas. Takes two seconds to do, and it thwarts shuffle tracking. Don't do it, and either the dealer pays a visit to the shift office, or a shuffle-tracking team may make a mint.
On UTH when using machines, the community cards are slid to the right, so that the bottom card is the first flop card, and the top card is the river. There are progressives that count wins based on the hole cards + flop only, and if I were a player denied a big win from wrong procedure, I would call gaming, plain and simple. The cards are also slid along the felt to prevent hole carding, and yeah, if a dealer gets blisters, he protected the game.
If a major chain operator ran their places otherwise, the losses would be in the millions. If a shareholder, I wouldn't be happy.
The attention to detail in procedure, for both the management and dealers, is usually a thousand times as strict with casinos, - especially the larger chains, and it has to be. (The account was akin watching people drive on the wrong side of the road and on the highway, or watching people prepare your food under the most of unsanitary conditions. I would say something about a dangerous food prep kitchen in a restaurant.)
We require the blackjack dealers who, after hitting the cut card at the end of the round, split the slug of the remaining deck, and then split that slug into three, to plug the deck sitting in the discard rack in three areas. Takes two seconds to do, and it thwarts shuffle tracking. Don't do it, and either the dealer pays a visit to the shift office, or a shuffle-tracking team may make a mint.
On UTH when using machines, the community cards are slid to the right, so that the bottom card is the first flop card, and the top card is the river. There are progressives that count wins based on the hole cards + flop only, and if I were a player denied a big win from wrong procedure, I would call gaming, plain and simple. The cards are also slid along the felt to prevent hole carding, and yeah, if a dealer gets blisters, he protected the game.
If a major chain operator ran their places otherwise, the losses would be in the millions. If a shareholder, I wouldn't be happy.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 25th, 2015 at 12:39:16 PM
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No, I have no issue with the OP - the issue and annoyance is with the card room and their slop.
The attention to detail in procedure, for both the management and dealers, is usually a thousand times as strict with casinos, - especially the larger chains, and it has to be. (The account was akin watching people drive on the wrong side of the road and on the highway, or watching people prepare your food under the most of unsanitary conditions. I would say something about a dangerous food prep kitchen in a restaurant.)
We require the blackjack dealers who, after hitting the cut card at the end of the round, split the slug of the remaining deck, and then split that slug into three, to plug the deck sitting in the discard rack in three areas. Takes two seconds to do, and it thwarts shuffle tracking. Don't do it, and either the dealer pays a visit to the shift office, or a shuffle-tracking team may make a mint.
On UTH when using machines, the community cards are slid to the right, so that the bottom card is the first flop card, and the top card is the river. There are progressives that count wins based on the hole cards + flop only, and if I were a player denied a big win from wrong procedure, I would call gaming, plain and simple. The cards are also slid along the felt to prevent hole carding, and yeah, if a dealer gets blisters, he protected the game.
If a major chain operator ran their places otherwise, the losses would be in the millions. If a shareholder, I wouldn't be happy.
The attention to detail in procedure, for both the management and dealers, is usually a thousand times as strict with casinos, - especially the larger chains, and it has to be. (The account was akin watching people drive on the wrong side of the road and on the highway, or watching people prepare your food under the most of unsanitary conditions. I would say something about a dangerous food prep kitchen in a restaurant.)
We require the blackjack dealers who, after hitting the cut card at the end of the round, split the slug of the remaining deck, and then split that slug into three, to plug the deck sitting in the discard rack in three areas. Takes two seconds to do, and it thwarts shuffle tracking. Don't do it, and either the dealer pays a visit to the shift office, or a shuffle-tracking team may make a mint.
On UTH when using machines, the community cards are slid to the right, so that the bottom card is the first flop card, and the top card is the river. There are progressives that count wins based on the hole cards + flop only, and if I were a player denied a big win from wrong procedure, I would call gaming, plain and simple. The cards are also slid along the felt to prevent hole carding, and yeah, if a dealer gets blisters, he protected the game.
If a major chain operator ran their places otherwise, the losses would be in the millions. If a shareholder, I wouldn't be happy.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 25th, 2015 at 12:54:37 PM
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Let me cut thru the noise.
For the perspective of a typical non-advantage player (which, I believe was the perspective of the OP), then the unique / odd deal described doesn't matter.
But for the perspective of a rules guru like Dan, or surveillance, or Gaming Control, or anyone who is worried that a dealer or casino that doesn't follow procedure might be cheating the players, then it matters a lot.
For the perspective of a typical non-advantage player (which, I believe was the perspective of the OP), then the unique / odd deal described doesn't matter.
But for the perspective of a rules guru like Dan, or surveillance, or Gaming Control, or anyone who is worried that a dealer or casino that doesn't follow procedure might be cheating the players, then it matters a lot.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 25th, 2015 at 12:59:52 PM
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There are no set rules on how this game is dealt except the casinos own procedure. Firekeeper fans the community cards from river up.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 25th, 2015 at 1:20:45 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesThere are no set rules on how this game is dealt except the casinos own procedure. Firekeeper fans the community cards from river up.
What there has to be, are consistent rules to produce consistent game results. So there are set rules.
The procedures that constitutes a flop on one deal have to match the procedures producing the flop between deals.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 25th, 2015 at 2:34:59 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanWhat there has to be, are consistent rules to produce consistent game results. So there are set rules.
The procedures that constitutes a flop on one deal have to match the procedures producing the flop between deals.
I agree within each casino. But a different casino may and can deal it completely different. That's my point.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 25th, 2015 at 4:16:37 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI agree within each casino. But a different casino may and can deal it completely different. That's my point.
Very fine. Even the official rules of play for Ulimate Texas Hold 'em Progressive (WA) states that "The Dealer will follow the [standard] House Procedure for dealing the game." This is where Internal Controls come in, and why they have to be tight: if a scenario occurred where Gaming agents were called to a property when a player claimed he flopped a Royal, where the three community cards that made his Royal were #3, 4, and 5 on the board, and that the dealer simply went the wrong way in dealing the community board, the player may win his case if not defined to a "T". And the difference between the 5% of Jackpot (7-card hand Royal) and 100% of jackpot (flopping the royal), at $200,000, is $190,000 on this game. A big nut for a casino to pay out and a case for a lawsuit, and certainly a huge amount for one regular player. Players can pay off mortgages and people can lose their gaming careers over this stuff, and it happens.
We've seen and discussed gaming lawsuits here from newspapers and media over precisely this kind of thing, and other scenarios that are similar arguments over dealing procedure and "who's really at fault." If there is ever "two ways" about something that affects a player's winnings, it can be big trouble and money. Any gambling hall that is very sloppy can be asking for trouble.
And what if a player played at a different property that had different procedures for the very same game - and was denied a jackpot? If it blew up, that table game's performance reputation would take a big hit among its customers ("That game is trouble - remove it!" they'd say and do.) This issue isn't whether it is mathematically the same probability dealing in either direction, (it is), the issue is how the dealing procedures can affect a particular's hand's win result, versus dealt another way, and it does have an effect. Even regardless of the progressive, in games like UTH and the like, the change of direction affects countless hands and its early flop raises versus late minimum call bets on the river - for the same 5-card set of community cards, if presented in a different order.
As a game designer, I would have added ("codified") that the 5-card community board packet from the automated shuffler "as spread face-down from left to right from the dealer's perspective," so that the bottom cards of the packet are the first displayed with consistency (flop), and that there are NO two ways about it.
The more items a game designer doesn't define, and leaves to casino discretion, the more problematic the game may be - for the players, the operators, and gaming agents at the user end.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 25th, 2015 at 5:15:02 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI agree within each casino. But a different casino may and can deal it completely different. That's my point.
Even within the same casino there are variations. I've played the game in places where the dealers just did their own thing. I find that annoying and wonder if it would void a big pay when hit if the casino had a set way. I'd rather just play UTH on a machine.
August 25th, 2015 at 6:06:45 PM
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If I am not mistaken, and I am alot, the OP stated he/she was in an Indian casino as a patron and was inquiring to the rule of dealing UTH. If that is correct, can it be agreed by all, that at Indian casino's, the proprietors sets the rules and we the gamer accept their rules by choosing to game there even if it goes against the common rules we regularly play by at non Indian casinos?
August 25th, 2015 at 6:07:30 PM
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Quote: PokeraddictEven within the same casino there are variations. I've played the game in places where the dealers just did their own thing. I find that annoying and wonder if it would void a big pay when hit if the casino had a set way. I'd rather just play UTH on a machine.
I've seen variations also. Very rarely do you see anyone complain. And I doubt it would void any big win.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 25th, 2015 at 7:10:51 PM
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Yes, it's rare. Most places have procedures down pat.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 26th, 2015 at 6:39:18 AM
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Quote: mason2386If I am not mistaken, and I am alot, the OP stated he/she was in an Indian casino as a patron and was inquiring to the rule of dealing UTH. If that is correct, can it be agreed by all, that at Indian casino's, the proprietors sets the rules and we the gamer accept their rules by choosing to game there even if it goes against the common rules we regularly play by at non Indian casinos?
OP here. I'm a he. You are not mistaken.
Since I noticed a difference (sequence of card distribution) in the dealing UTH between having them hand dealt and using the SM shuffler, all I inquired about was "Is there a standard procedure/method to hand deal UTH?".
The answer is NO and obviously sequence doesn't matter. The casino can use whatever method it wants. Now I know. Thanks for the replies.
BTW - the casino is in Arizona near Tucson. There are only two, so take your pick. It's not important.
August 31st, 2015 at 6:27:07 PM
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I have played this game all over the world and on a variety of cruise ships. I have seen it dealt in a great variety of ways. I would totally agree with most of the posters here that it is a random ally shuffled deck of cards and the system of dealing will not change the odds of winning. If you really think it does you should play another game.
August 31st, 2015 at 7:01:24 PM
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Fully agree - There's no question that the overall game odds do not change: for a large multi-hand hand sample, the number of wins and losses (and its overall house edge) remain the same for full hands dealt overall.
What changes with the sequence of the cards being dealt within a hand is the partial hand compositions that can trigger wins and losses (like a "flop win" versus a win using the full community board) - on the progressive bet. Also changed is the raise and check calls, - and the amount won or lost from that, on whether or not you connect with the flop versus the river card, - this is changed by the community board display sequence. You can bet 2x on the flop, but only 1x on the river. The dealing sequence affects those chances within the same full hand dealt, - because the mid-round partial hands (and its decisions) are changed.
It is exactly this kind of stuff that can be the basis for player-to-casino disputes: Players can make claims very frequently. 99% of the time this is a non-issue, and all is fine.
What changes with the sequence of the cards being dealt within a hand is the partial hand compositions that can trigger wins and losses (like a "flop win" versus a win using the full community board) - on the progressive bet. Also changed is the raise and check calls, - and the amount won or lost from that, on whether or not you connect with the flop versus the river card, - this is changed by the community board display sequence. You can bet 2x on the flop, but only 1x on the river. The dealing sequence affects those chances within the same full hand dealt, - because the mid-round partial hands (and its decisions) are changed.
It is exactly this kind of stuff that can be the basis for player-to-casino disputes: Players can make claims very frequently. 99% of the time this is a non-issue, and all is fine.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
