new table game in dublin,ireland

The have this new table game in my local casino called 5 card rush.The player gets dealt 4 cards,the dealer just one.the dealers card must be beaten in rank by the same suit of one of the player cards.There are also 10 jokers in this 6 deck game,jokers are wild and you win automatically and get paid 3/2.If dealer gets one you lose
There is also the option of doubling down after the player gets their 1st two cards.
there is a side bet but I don't have the payouts on this yet.
Can anyone work out the house edge for this game?Or some kind of doubling strategy.
I was thinking of just watching from the start of a shoe and if a joker hasn't come out for a while then stick on a few bets.

The chance of drawing at least one card that matches the dealers suit is pretty low. But then you have to outrank him. I imagine the house edge is terrible, try dealing this out to yourself a bit. I don't think the jokers or doubling would do enough to make the house edge anywhere near beatable. That's my first impression.

Yea I have been dealing to myself and not much good,I was watching last night and the punters were getting slaughtered.
Anyone out there have the exact math on this?

Quote: Gos123

Anyone out there have the exact math on this?

We need to know the exact rules first. I can't seem to access the Fitzwilliam Card Club's site (which seems to be the only one with the rules on it) at the moment.

Without doubling down and if there are no jokers (p=0.85), the player will have a card that matches the dealers suit 69% of the time. Sometimes the dealer will win the push, and sometimes the player will have multiple of the suit, so for simplicity's sake, let's say that the player wins half of these.

Player will automatically win with a joker ~12% of the time, and dealer will automatically win with joker ~3% of the time. We can multiply the probability of each situation by the payout to get a rough ev.

No Jokers
Player beats house (0.85*0.69/2)*2=0.474
House beats player (0.85*0.69/2)*0=0
Player doesn't have matching suit card (0.85*(1-0.69))*0=0
Jokers
Player gets joker 0.119*2.5=0.2975
House gets joker 0.031*0=0

Without doubling down, my rough ev off of the top of the shoe is 0.7715. Who has a guess at the optimal doubling down strategy? This is a shoe game and thus is countable, although there appears to be a considerable house edge to overcome.

Quote: http://fitzwilliamcardclub.com/5-card-rush-brand-new-game

Enjoy a brand new game in the Fitz – 5Card Rush – feel the rush in beating the dealers card! Beat the Dealers card in Suit and Rank or find a Joker and get paid immediately.

THE GAME
5Card Rush is played with six standard decks of cards and 10 Jokers. The Player is dealt 4 cards and the Dealer (Bank) receives one card. The aim for the Player is that one of his four cards has a higher suited card than the suit card of the Dealer. Pay out is 1:1 and a Player wins automatically if he receives a Joker. The Joker pays 3:2
You can also pay the bonus game of Poker+. The 4 cards of the Player and the card of the Dealer together can form a poker combination. The pay-out structure is printed on the table.

I agree there needs to be confirmation of the details, if the game was a simple bet, deal and win, then the House Edge would be terrible, however ...

Quote: http://ics-eu.com/games/5card-rush/

Mechanics

The player has to beat the dealer with a higher ranked card of the same suit. The joker always wins.
The dealer draws 2 initial cards for each player. After the initial draw the player can decide to double his initial bet. The player wins if he has any higher ranking card of the same suit than (sic)de banks card. The joker always beats the bankers card.

It seems unlikely the dealer's card is face up until after player's have acted (this seems too favourable).

The reasonable assumptions that need confirming are
(i) A Joker in the first two cards pays out 6/4 rather than allowing a double.
(ii) A subsequent Joker is paid 6/4 (including on the doubled bet), and the above implies it always beats the dealer.
(iii) It is unclear what is the effect of the dealer getting a Joker - it seems reasonable to assume Players with a Joker win and all others lose.
(iv) The Dealer's card is only shown/dealt once all players have acted.

Thus the key decision is whether you double on two (presumably differently suited) sufficiently high cards.

It would seem reasonable that if there were more Jokers to come, Players have four opportunities whereas the Dealer only gets one and also might double slightly lower hands. Similar arguments apply to Aces, but then you don't win stand-offs. So the game might be countable and have collusion on what's in people's hands.

I saw a similar game at the showcase and it was at ICE 2014, but can't remember the exact details ( https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/other-games/15382-new-games-showcase-uk-grosvenor-casinos-17-10-2013/3/ ) and never found my notes!

Sorry guys,I got it wrong.If the dealer and player have the same rank/suit it is a push.This I think would change things,ie if you get dealt two aces then of course you would double down,i will be there tomorrow night to get the exact pay table,thx guys

Quote: Gos123

Sorry guys,I got it wrong.If the dealer and player have the same rank/suit it is a push.This I think would change things,ie if you get dealt two aces then of course you would double down,i will be there tomorrow night to get the exact pay table,thx guys

I'm certainly intrigued and curious to know the exact rules/paytables... but as others have stated, the fact that you have to match the dealers suit is a straight killer to the player. You can get dealt As-Ac-Ah-Kh and if the dealer has a 2d, then you lose.

To further that, what's the best hand you could get then? All 4 aces of all 4 suits... Guarantees you can't lose! So if you're betting $25, and you double you win $50 (so long as the dealer doesn't pull an ace as well). Why not play 4 card poker at that point? At least there when you get dealt 4 aces with a bonus bet I'm sure it pays something like 200-1 or something. You're only going to get dealt 4 aces every so often, why not win something more than double your measly bet when you do?

Quote: studmuffn

Without doubling down and if there are no jokers (p=0.85), the player will have a card that matches the dealers suit 69% of the time. Sometimes the dealer will win the push, and sometimes the player will have multiple of the suit, so for simplicity's sake, let's say that the player wins half of these.

Player will automatically win with a joker ~12% of the time, and dealer will automatically win with joker ~3% of the time. We can multiply the probability of each situation by the payout to get a rough ev.

No Jokers
Player beats house (0.85*0.69/2)*2=0.474
House beats player (0.85*0.69/2)*0=0
Player doesn't have matching suit card (0.85*(1-0.69))*0=0
Jokers
Player gets joker 0.119*2.5=0.2975
House gets joker 0.031*0=0

Without doubling down, my rough ev off of the top of the shoe is 0.7715. Who has a guess at the optimal doubling down strategy? This is a shoe game and thus is countable, although there appears to be a considerable house edge to overcome.

Just a few corrections:
Player beats house (0.85*0.69/2)*2 = 0.5865

Quote:

Sometimes the dealer will win the push, and sometimes the player will have multiple of the suit, so for simplicity's sake, let's say that the player wins half of these.

Having more than one of the dealer suit improves the probability that you have a higher one. Given when no one gets a joker(0.8532), the player will match the suit with 0 cards 0.3184, 1 card 0.4246 (win 1/2) , 2 cards 0.2086 (win 2/3), 3 cards 0.0447 (win 3/4), 4 cards 0.0035( win 4/5)
Player beats house 1 match .8532*.4246*(1/2)*2=0.36226872
Player beats house 2 match .8532*.2086*(2/3)*2=0.23730336
Player beats house 3 match .8532*.0447*(3/4)*2=0.05720706
Player beats house 4 match .8532*.0035*(4/5)*2=0.00477792

This puts your rough return to 0.95905706 which is really close to my no double return of 0.959197121

Hand	ways	Pays	Probability	Return
Joker	16648594260	1.5	0.11908584	0.17862876
win	43597951488	1	0.311852076	0.311852076
Tie	5281540680	0	0.037778367	0
Lose	74275220292	-1	0.531283716	-0.531283716
Total	139803306720			-0.040802879

Coming soon(might be a week): Double down strategy and final pay table.

Quote: miplet

Just a few corrections:
Player beats house (0.85*0.69/2)*2 = 0.5865

Having more than one of the dealer suit improves the probability that you have a higher one. Given when no one gets a joker(0.8532), the player will match the suit with 0 cards 0.3184, 1 card 0.4246 (win 1/2) , 2 cards 0.2086 (win 2/3), 3 cards 0.0447 (win 3/4), 4 cards 0.0035( win 4/5)
Player beats house 1 match .8532*.4246*(1/2)*2=0.36226872
Player beats house 2 match .8532*.2086*(2/3)*2=0.23730336
Player beats house 3 match .8532*.0447*(3/4)*2=0.05720706
Player beats house 4 match .8532*.0035*(4/5)*2=0.00477792

This puts your rough return to 0.95905706 which is really close to my no double return of 0.959197121

Hand	ways	Pays	Probability	Return
Joker	16648594260	1.5	0.11908584	0.17862876
win	43597951488	1	0.311852076	0.311852076
Tie	5281540680	0	0.037778367	0
Lose	74275220292	-1	0.531283716	-0.531283716
Total	139803306720			-0.040802879

Coming soon(might be a week): Double down strategy and final pay table.

Wow, phenominal work miplet. I really did not see this game being anywhere close to a 2-3% house edge, but at only 4% w/out doubling strategy, there's a chance I suppose. I'll eagerly await your final analysis! =P

I'll hold off doing a final analysis until we have all the rules. Mostly what happens when the player gets a Joker. Does it beat a dealer Joker? Can you double when it is one of your first 2 cards? Assuming a player Joker beats a Dealer joker, you should double with unsuited:
Ace,6 or better
King,8 or better
Queen,9 or better
Jack, 10 or better

Great stuff.
If you don't bet the side bet and you get a joker in your 1st two cards it is automatically paid 3;2 and your cards taken away.If you double down on two cards and then get a joker,you will be paid 3;2 on the doubled bet. ie a 10$ bet is doubled making it 20$ and she gives you a joker then you win 30$.
Dealer joker is automatic winner, dealer joker v player joker is a push.
all player cards are face up.
the pay table for side bets is three of a kind 5/1;straight 10/1;flush 10/1;full house 15/1; ermm cant remember the others,will update.

The bad thing is the table is dead,not many punters playing it,I was hoping to just wait for excess of jokers deep in and then hop in but at times the table wasn't even open.
Ill keep you updated anyway
thx

dealer is dealt last,obviously;-)

This is straightforward to analyze.

Six deck game + 10 jokers = 322 cards

There are 14 scenarios to analyze: Dealer has a Joker, Ace, K, Q . . . 3, 2

For each scenario, count the number of cards that will qualify as a win, and the number of cards that will count as a push.

Ex: dealer has a King
Prob: = 24/322 = 0.0745
Cards that will beat a King: 16 (10 jokers + 6 suited aces)
Cards that will push a king: 6

For each scenario , calculate the odds that the player will not hold any of the winning cards in his four card hand, etc.

Player win frequency: 0.427583719
Player push frequency: 0.041487715
Player loss frequency: 0.530928566

Adjust for differential payout for doubling (exercise left to the reader)

Quote: Gos123

The have this new table game in my local casino called 5 card rush.The player gets dealt 4 cards,the dealer just one.the dealers card must be beaten in rank by the same suit of one of the player cards.There are also 10 jokers in this 6 deck game,jokers are wild and you win automatically and get paid 3/2.If dealer gets one you lose
There is also the option of doubling down after the player gets their 1st two cards.
there is a side bet but I don't have the payouts on this yet.
Can anyone work out the house edge for this game?Or some kind of doubling strategy.
I was thinking of just watching from the start of a shoe and if a joker hasn't come out for a while then stick on a few bets.

Which casino? The Fitz?

Quote: Gos123

Great stuff.
If you don't bet the side bet and you get a joker in your 1st two cards it is automatically paid 3;2 and your cards taken away.If you double down on two cards and then get a joker,you will be paid 3;2 on the doubled bet. ie a 10$ bet is doubled making it 20$ and she gives you a joker then you win 30$.
Dealer joker is automatic winner, dealer joker v player joker is a push.
all player cards are face up.
the pay table for side bets is three of a kind 5/1;straight 10/1;flush 10/1;full house 15/1; ermm cant remember the others,will update.

The bad thing is the table is dead,not many punters playing it,I was hoping to just wait for excess of jokers deep in and then hop in but at times the table wasn't even open.
Ill keep you updated anyway
thx

dealer is dealt last,obviously;-)

Darn, I was hoping you could double if you got a Joker in your first 2 cards. Getting a Joker in you last 2 cards and pushing if the Dealer gets a Joker changes the Double strategy to Double with an unsuited:
Ace,7 or better
King,8 or better
Queen,9 or better
Jack, 10 or better

Final house edge of 3.05% and a Element of Risk of 2.65%

Hand	Double	Pays	Ways	Probablity	Return
Joker	Yes	3	7557105600	0.009009212	0.027027635
Win	Yes	2	56213450496	0.067014927	0.134029854
Tie	Yes	0	5558207040	0.006626223	0
Lose	Yes	-2	56881315584	0.067811123	-0.135622247
Joker	No	1.5	90963397800	0.108442115	0.162663173
Win	No	1	205374258432	0.244837149	0.244837149
Tie	No	0	27502099200	0.032786658	0
Lose	No	-1	388770006168	0.463472593	-0.463472593
Total			838819840320		-0.030537027