Auto shuffler knows what the cards are

Quote: BadBeat0420

I was playing PGP yesterday at Horseshoe in Baltimore. I came across the dealer using the card set up screen. This is the first time I have seen this in nearly 20 years of playing PGP.

Here is my concern: the machine shuffles the cards, reads the cards as they are placed into packets, and tells the dealer how to play the cards they are dealt. This machine also identifies the order in which the cards are distributed. The RNG is used AFTER the cards are shuffled, and the machine knows which set of cards is best, or at least is better than the majority of other set hands. It is easy for this set of cards to be dealt to the house.

I do not think the machine is shuffling the cards in such a way to give better cards to any certain hand. But I do believe it is choosing the first hand to be dealt (by RNG) as a way to allow the dealer to receive a certain hand that is read as likely being a winner at the table. That is shennanigans in my book.

It does know the cards, but the machine does not know which hand is the dealers hand. The dealer has to let the machine know who the banker/dealer is.

Here is a video of it. at 2:40 the machine goes to a screen with #s 1-7. It is asking the dealer which hand is the banker/dealer

And at the 3:20 mark, the dealer presses the "1" to let the machine know that is the dealers spot

Mr. Bad Beat, it is not impossible that what you say can happen. And clearly if a smart guy wanted to build such a technology he could. The problem with your theory is that a lot of humans would need to be involved, and any one of them could expose the shenannigans, and essentially take down what is now a profitable company.

Let me ask you this, how much more do you think SHFL charges a casino for one of its 'special' machines? Who at SHFL instructed its programmer to put in the 'special' program?

I'll make it simpler..... If you owned SHFL all by yourself, would you risk it all for some scheme like you propose?

Quote: GlenG

Are you aware that MGM requires pits to check IDs now right? But it sounds like you only go to small casinos (SLS, Stratosphere)

You apparently do not witness 95% of the buy ins of players 30-35 years old at the tables adjacent to you in your own casino if you believe that dealers and pit are not using common sense most times rather than strictly following. I fall in that age range, look like it, play unrated, in mgm casinos (since you were a board member) and cannot remember the last time I’ve been asked for ID there.

Seems like you maybe got bullied a lot as a kid? Maybe missed a calling in law enforcement.

Quote: mcallister3200

You apparently do not witness 95% of the buy ins of players 30-35 years old at the tables adjacent to you in your own casino if you believe that dealers and pit are not using common sense most times rather than strictly following. I fall in that age range, look like it, play unrated, in mgm casinos (since you were a board member) and cannot remember the last time I’ve been asked for ID there.

Seems like you maybe got bullied a lot as a kid? Maybe missed a calling in law enforcement.

Im referring to ZKs situation specifically. He does not let Pits/MGMT look at his ID. He laughs in their face. Back in other threads it was mentioned he gets IDed a bunch because he looks young(i think someone said hes under 30, idk how old he actually is). He just said he will let a Dealer ID him. But at MGM properties, if a dealer has to ID you, they cannot check it themselves, and have to wait for the pitboss to check it.

So im curious. In that situation, would he freak out, grab his ID back and run away?

Quote: Zcore13

Is there not a conspiracy theory topic for these types of posts to go plus all of ZK's? We relegated dice controllers to their own area. ZCore13

There definitely should be. We can call it "The Tinfoil Hat Society"

It's too bad The Zen Zone is taken. To think I had a chance to buy that for $1,000.

Quote: GlenG

Im referring to ZKs situation specifically. He does not let Pits/MGMT look at his ID. He laughs in their face. Back in other threads it was mentioned he gets IDed a bunch because he looks young(i think someone said hes under 30, idk how old he actually is). He just said he will let a Dealer ID him. But at MGM properties, if a dealer has to ID you, they cannot check it themselves, and have to wait for the pitboss to check it.

So im curious. In that situation, would he freak out, grab his ID back and run away?




There definitely should be. We can call it "The Tinfoil Hat Society"

First off, you're misinterpreting everything i said.

Dealers dont always hand it to the pit boss, but when they do, it is what it is, and im screwed at that point. You never know when that will happen, but usually happens if theres people already playing and the dealer doesnt want to interrupt and just hands it over to the pit boss and keeps dealing which infuriates me because dealer didnt wait for me and its a positive count when i jump in. Sometimes i have to almost put my hand on the felt to prevent the dealer from dealing amd telling them they have to wait for me.

If the pit boss directly asks me for id prior to playing, i use my judgment to know whether its heat or an honest request to see my ID, which ID usually easy to tell taking everything into consideration.

What I said about laughing in their face is when I know its heat and a pit boss directly asks me for ID outside the pit after i finished playing or after they chase me down away from the table.

Lastly what conspiracy theory are you and Zcore even saying im talking about this time?

Quote: ZenKinG

Dealers dont always hand it to the pit boss, but when they do, it is what it is, and im screwed at that point. You never know when that will happen, but usually happens if theres people already playing and the dealer doesnt want to interrupt and just hands it over to the pit boss and keeps dealing which infuriates me because dealer didnt wait for me and its a positive count when i jump in.

Im just talking about the policy at MGM properties (My house keeps up with it, I cannot say the same for the others). But if theres players at the table and the dealer requests your ID, they take it, yell out "ID Check" and place it where the player cards usually go (I personally dont even look at it and place it face down so nobody on the table can see it). They have to continue the game (the rule is actually posted on the bulletin board in the dealers area).

Quote: ZenKinG

Sometimes i have to almost put my hand on the felt to prevent the dealer from dealing amd telling them they have to wait for me.

I hope you dont word it like that. If you're nice about it some dealers will wait..but usually when people get ID'd the dealer has to keep going, because who knows how long it will take the floor to check it, sometimes they are busy and it will take 2 or 3+ hands before he/she gets there (Hence the reason for the note posted on the bulletin board)

Quote: ZenKinG

but usually happens if theres people already playing and the dealer doesnt want to interrupt and just hands it over to the pit boss and keeps dealing which infuriates me because dealer didnt wait for me and its a positive count when i jump in

Just have them ID you while youre watching the table. Just playfully be like "Im not gonna play just yet, but i usually get IDd anyways so here"





Personally, im not a fan of the policy..I would rather take a mandatory class on how to property check IDs and look for signs of fakes etc. so we can just check them ourselves....Its funny cause when we are not on a table and suspect someone on a slot machine to be underage, we can ID them.

Quote: GlenG

Im just talking about the policy at MGM properties (My house keeps up with it, I cannot say the same for the others). But if theres players at the table and the dealer requests your ID, they take it, yell out "ID Check" and place it where the player cards usually go (I personally dont even look at it and place it face down so nobody on the table can see it). They have to continue the game (the rule is actually posted on the bulletin board in the dealers area).



I hope you dont word it like that. If you're nice about it some dealers will wait..but usually when people get ID'd the dealer has to keep going, because who knows how long it will take the floor to check it, sometimes they are busy and it will take 2 or 3+ hands before he/she gets there (Hence the reason for the note posted on the bulletin board)




Just have them ID you while youre watching the table. Just playfully be like "Im not gonna play just yet, but i usually get IDd anyways so here"





Personally, im not a fan of the policy..I would rather take a mandatory class on how to property check IDs and look for signs of fakes etc. so we can just check them ourselves....Its funny cause when we are not on a table and suspect someone on a slot machine to be underage, we can ID them.

Interesting, I wasnt aware of that bulletin board thing, i thought it was just the dealers being lazy, which is why it angered me so much. I guess each property is different because most of them, the dealers just check it themselves.

Yeah, when they keep dealing and place the ID on the side and wait for the pit boss, that irritates me so badly cause the following rounds are all positive counts and im missing them cause of that id check. I didnt know they did that cause of policy, probably another excuse to keep backcounters from playing as many positive rounds as possible or maybe they instruct dealers to do that if they suspect I was counting down the shoe from behind the table, wouldnt be surprised because from what Ive found, the places that do that type of id check are very inconsistent and it varies by the dealer.

Yeah, ive done what you mentioned, just jump in early before it goes positive, in case they have to call the pit boss to come check the id so it gives me added time and so i dont miss any action.

Quote: ZenKinG

Interesting, I wasnt aware of that bulletin board thing, i thought it was just dealers being lazy, which is why it angered me so much lol. I guess each property is different because most of them, the dealers just check it themselves.

Yeah, when they keep dealing and place the ID on the side and wait for the pit boss, that irritates me so badly cause the following rounds are all positive counts and im missing them cause of that id check. I didnt know they did that cause of policy, probably another excuse to keep backcounters from playing as many positive rounds as possible.

Yeah, ive done what you mentioned, just jump in early before it goes positivr, in case they have to call the pit boss to come check the id so it gives me added time and so i dont miss any positive counts.

If its still there, ill take a picture and PM you. It does anger me though because I know how to look at IDs, I have been trained on it many many times. It Especially sucks on Roulette when someone wants to do a big $$ one time bet (B/R usually) and they cannot make the bet until their ID gets checked. So i have to listen to them complain about it when it happens. And if i dont deal when waiting for the ID check, ill hear about it from some boss.

Quote: ZenKinG

I didnt know they did that cause of policy, probably another excuse to keep backcounters from playing as many positive rounds as possible.

No, someone messed up and let a very underaged player gamble with a fake ID (not sure which casino it was)

Quote: GlenG

If its still there, ill take a picture and PM you. It does anger me though because I know how to look at IDs, I have been trained on it many many times. It Especially sucks on Roulette when someone wants to do a big $$ one time bet (B/R usually) and they cannot make the bet until their ID gets checked. So i have to listen to them complain about it when it happens. And if i dont deal when waiting for the ID check, ill hear about it from some boss.



No, someone messed up and let a very underaged player gamble with a fake ID (not sure which casino it was)

Just saw your PM. That doesnt really say its required for the supervisor to check it, but seems to leave the option to the dealer if they need help etc

Quote: ZenKinG

Just saw your PM. That doesnt really say its required for the supervisor to check it, but seems to leave the option to the dealer if they need help etc

I just sent you the right one. What I sent before was a reminder of it since dealers were standing there waiting

Can a player ask the dealer: What is the proper house way to set MY hand?
If so, then the dealer has to have multiple buttons on his machine and the machine has to know what the cards are by some means.

If it slows rate of play that is a marketing matter between the seller and the casino. Casino decides whether to buy and whether to use the device. Players only decide whether to play or not.

I would not think the electronic knowledge could be of any use in dealing future cards.

Quote: FleaStiff

Can a player ask the dealer: What is the proper house way to set MY hand?
If so, then the dealer has to have multiple buttons on his machine and the machine has to know what the cards are by some means.

Once the dealer tells the machine that his/her position is spot 1 (have you input it every time) then it will also know the other 7 spots as well. The machine will show it if I choose to reveal spot # whatever. But its programmed to the casinos house way, and I and other dealers already know the answer, so usually dont do it on request.

I don't really care that the card shuffler does sees and reads each card that is dealt to each hand at the table.
That is NOT where the casino cheats.
In Face Up Pai Gow, they use an electronic "randomizer" to determine which player gets which hand.
It sets the order of the hands.
This is the opportunity for the casino to cheat very simply by giving the dealer the best hand as many times as it wants.
It can give the dealer the BEST hand.
It can give the dealer the 2nd best hand.
It WON'T give the dealer the best hand every hand otherwise the cheat would be way too obvious.
It can give the dealer the worse hand every so often to let the players enjoy a full table win.
The casino can use the computer to do all of this. In doing so it can make the cheat not so obvious.

And you don't need to use anything more expensive then 3 dice to solve this issue.
You don't need RFID cards and all that other nonsense people have suggested that costs the casinos lots of money to implement.
Simple use 3 dice to deteremine the order of the hands.

This removes the OPPORTUNITY to cheat the players.
This removes the DOUBT that players have that the game is rigged.

Yes, let the card shuffler see and know what card is in each hand, but DON'T let a computer determine the order of the hands so that it gives OPPORTUNITY for the house to determine which hand to give the dealer at any given time.

Is it too hard to ask the casinos to use dice to determine order of the hands??
Is it too EXPENSIVE??

For game integrity sake, use the DICE!!!

Quote: Kvega2

I don't really care that the card shuffler does sees and reads each card that is dealt to each hand at the table.
That is NOT where the casino cheats.
In Face Up Pai Gow, they use an electronic "randomizer" to determine which player gets which hand.
It sets the order of the hands.
This is the opportunity for the casino to cheat very simply by giving the dealer the best hand as many times as it wants.
It can give the dealer the BEST hand.
It can give the dealer the 2nd best hand.
It WON'T give the dealer the best hand every hand otherwise the cheat would be way too obvious.
It can give the dealer the worse hand every so often to let the players enjoy a full table win.
The casino can use the computer to do all of this. In doing so it can make the cheat not so obvious.

And you don't need to use anything more expensive then 3 dice to solve this issue.
You don't need RFID cards and all that other nonsense people have suggested that costs the casinos lots of money to implement.
Simple use 3 dice to deteremine the order of the hands.

This removes the OPPORTUNITY to cheat the players.
This removes the DOUBT that players have that the game is rigged.

Yes, let the card shuffler see and know what card is in each hand, but DON'T let a computer determine the order of the hands so that it gives OPPORTUNITY for the house to determine which hand to give the dealer at any given time.

Is it too hard to ask the casinos to use dice to determine order of the hands??
Is it too EXPENSIVE??

For game integrity sake, use the DICE!!!
link to original post

Unnecessary. U ness you are playing in a 3rd World Country, casinos are not manipulation Pai Gow Poker hands. The machines don't know where the cards are going and don't know which seats have players in them. Waste of time even thinking about it.


ZCore13

Zcore,
Then why not have the casinos use dice to determine the order of the hands??
Seems simple enough.
There really is no reason why they don't use the dice just like regular pai gow tables use.

And you are lying when you say the machines don't know where the cards are going.
That is a pure lie.
The machine tells the dealers how to set their hand the house way.
If the machine doesn't know the cards then how does it know how the dealer should set their hand??

That display is in plain view of the players. The machine shows the dealers cards and how to set the hand.

Quote: Zcore13

Unnecessary. U ness you are playing in a 3rd World Country, casinos are not manipulation...
ZCore13
link to original post

I'll add one thought...

It's an analogy, not trying to bring politics here, but I think it applies: Some people think because Elon Musk is a billionaire (and the richest person alive) that he couldn't possibly want or steal anyone else's money. These people are clearly ignorant AF.

I'll close with a quote from the Matrix... "What do all men with power want? ...More power."

Quote: Romes

Quote: Zcore13

Unnecessary. U ness you are playing in a 3rd World Country, casinos are not manipulation...
ZCore13
link to original post

I'll add one thought...

It's an analogy, not trying to bring politics here, but I think it applies: Some people think because Elon Musk is a billionaire (and the richest person alive) that he couldn't possibly want or steal anyone else's money. These people are clearly ignorant AF.

I'll close with a quote from the Matrix... "What do all men with power want? ...More power."
link to original post

Sure! Didn't you hear about those billionaires they caught shoplifting in Target?

No? Me neither.

It's a matter of scale. A billionaire might embezzle billions, but there is nothing in any Target, or any store at all worth the effort and risk of shoplifting for him. Which is why it never happens. Unless we're talking about 5-figure hauls or more, it's not even worth it for a middle class person to shoplift, which is why it is a vice predominantly of the poor.

Same at a casino, and there might be financial crimes at a very high level going on in the background, or the low level employees are stealing low level things, or the casino is doing some random and petty unethical things inadvertently, like deceptive mailers or ambiguous promo rules. But outright rigging of a gaming element to cheat- no, too much to lose for the profit they could make.

I have a shuffler just like the one in the video on page one. I think I bought it 30 years ago on mail order. I did not know it could deliver tracking data to a cell phone. That did not look like the camera in the phone was tracking the cards and making the data. That's some neat trick. Maybe they installed a card reading sensor into the shuffler that I missed or didn't get with mine. It only runs on batteries and is clunky.