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cyrus
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:37:02 AM permalink
Maybe this is a surprise to no one here...

The Pai Gow Poker table at my local joint has a mini computer screen built into the table which tells the dealer how to set his hand. He lays out the cards, pushes a button, and the screen shows him the house way. When I first saw it, I assumed it was camera based, ie somehow linked to the eye in the sky.

Last time I was there, his machine was initially malfunctioning, so he kept pushing different buttons and the screen was showing DIFFERENT hands for each button. I think it showed only the top hand for each. All players hands were still face down at the time.

My conclusion is the shuffling machine knows what cards it dealt to each player. Not sure if it's optical, ie it shuffles randomly and then "reads" the cards; or if it's RNG based, ie it uses RNG to assign all the hands, then finds/assembles those hands in order. I guess the second option would still require an optical card reader of some sort.

Call me old fashioned / superstitious / paranoid, but this creeps me out for some reason. I know I believe that auto shufflers produce random results. And I'm willing to play purely RNG driven games such as video poker. But for some weird reason the combination of the two seems creepy. The machine knows which physical cards it gave me. Perhaps I'd be more comfortable if the game were just purely electronic. But I think the fact they are using physical cards adds some mythical sense of "true randomness" and this optical reading is breaking that illusion.
noy2222
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:47:46 AM permalink
RFID chips in the cards and a reader in the table makes more sense.
TwoFeathersATL
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:48:49 AM permalink
I wonder about the auto-shuffle machines myself. Not the game you mention necessarily, but just in general. If I'm gonna play, I'd REALLY like a random shuffle. I 'd REALLY like 6 or 8 or whatever Truly normal decks, no cards missing or added. How the hell do you know? There are probably individuals here that understand the workings of the auto-shuffle machines. Maybe they can help me understand, please.
Saw a mention in another thread yesterday talking about why anyone would EVER play at one of the Indian Casinos on tribal land and insinuated that the decks might not be 'standard'. Does this really happen? Is that why I'm losing? (That's a rhetorical question, ignore it) 2F
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Ibeatyouraces
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:52:06 AM permalink
Quote: noy2222

RFID chips in the cards and a reader in the table makes more sense.


This is what they use on the final tables of the WSOP and other major tournaments now.
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Ibeatyouraces
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:54:14 AM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Saw a mention in another thread yesterday talking about why anyone would EVER play at one of the Indian Casinos on tribal land and insinuated that the decks might not be 'standard'. Does this really happen? Is that why I'm losing? (That's a rhetorical question, ignore it) 2F


Soaring Eagle in Mount Pleasant, Michigan got caught shorting aces in their bj games.
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RaleighCraps
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:55:13 AM permalink
Quote: noy2222

RFID chips in the cards and a reader in the table makes more sense.



I think this would be a very expensive option, considering how often cards are changed out.

I am 99.9% certain that the shufflers use optical card recognition, read as the cards are dealt into the holding tray. I have heard of monster Pai Gow Poker hands that are not paid until the pit verifies on the shuffler that the monster hand was indeed dealt out on that shuffle.

I'm waiting for that perfect storm where a player gets the monster hand, but the shuffler has an electronic malfunction, and fails to read that the hand was dealt. So the casino voids the hand. I bet that one ends up in a court too.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
rsactuary
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:56:04 AM permalink
I've talked to pit bosses and asked what would happen if they put a new unshuffled deck into an automatic shuffler. How mixed up do the cards actually get?

They've never tried it, and they say they aren't allowed to. I sure would be curious.

(and I would like to see it done more on a single deck game like Pai Gai or Let it Ride to get a true sense of how well it's shuffling).
RaleighCraps
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June 4th, 2015 at 9:08:00 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

I've talked to pit bosses and asked what would happen if they put a new unshuffled deck into an automatic shuffler. How mixed up do the cards actually get?

They've never tried it, and they say they aren't allowed to. I sure would be curious.

(and I would like to see it done more on a single deck game like Pai Gai or Let it Ride to get a true sense of how well it's shuffling).



I don't know if the shufflers use a mechanical rifle or not, but I would not design one that way.

I would use an RNG to pick a number from 1 to 52, and then grab that position card from the stack, and put it in the 'shuffled' pile.
I would then use the RNG to pick a number from 1 to 51, and grab that position card from the stack, and place it on top of the 'shuffled' pile.
Keep repeating until all 52 cards are in the shuffled pile.
There would be no bias at all in this shuffle.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
jml24
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June 4th, 2015 at 9:39:45 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps


I would use an RNG to pick a number from 1 to 52, and then grab that position card from the stack, and put it in the 'shuffled' pile.
I would then use the RNG to pick a number from 1 to 51, and grab that position card from the stack, and place it on top of the 'shuffled' pile.
Keep repeating until all 52 cards are in the shuffled pile.
There would be no bias at all in this shuffle.



This would be the best way to do it, but I am pretty sure no current machines do that because of the precision required to pick a card from a specific position in the deck. I believe there are people on this forum who know exactly how they actually work and have been able to exploit biases. My limited understanding is that they work approximately this way: They have several slots for cards to end up in. They pick cards off the deck and randomly choose slots for each card.

Regarding the original question, I am also pretty sure they use an optical reader that scans the cards as they come out of the machine. Optically recognizing cards is easy. The reason they use RFID cards at WSOP TV tables is so the players don't have to show the cards to the camera for them to get hole card info. To use an optical scanner the dealer would have to pull the cards out of a machine which would slow down the deal and probably annoy the players. At table games, they use cheap disposable paper cards and change them out on a regular basis. New games are designed to be dealt from a machine so that isn't a problem.

At PGP, the normal procedure is to not let players look at their hands until all cards are dealt so that a misdeal can be detected. At places that have a progressive they tend to be more strict about this. I am sure that the light on the machine which gives the OK for the hand to move forward is conditional on all the cards being read successfully. This guards against the case where a player is dealt a big hand but the machine didn't verify it properly.
rsactuary
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June 4th, 2015 at 9:41:39 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I don't know if the shufflers use a mechanical rifle or not, but I would not design one that way.

I would use an RNG to pick a number from 1 to 52, and then grab that position card from the stack, and put it in the 'shuffled' pile.
I would then use the RNG to pick a number from 1 to 51, and grab that position card from the stack, and place it on top of the 'shuffled' pile.
Keep repeating until all 52 cards are in the shuffled pile.
There would be no bias at all in this shuffle.



Agreed on this approach, I believe that such a shuffler exists, because I saw it demonstrated on TV. They used a puff of air to remove the exact card chosen by random number. Haven't actually seen it in a casino though.
ThatDonGuy
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June 4th, 2015 at 9:58:51 AM permalink
Maybe I heard this wrong, but don't some autoshufflers/CSMs have the ability to sort the cards at the push of a button?
rsactuary
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June 4th, 2015 at 10:03:27 AM permalink
Hope I'm not violating any rules here, but here's a Stanford paper on a shuffler using an RNG

http://statweb.stanford.edu/~susan/papers/casino.pdf
DJTeddyBear
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June 4th, 2015 at 10:10:03 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Maybe I heard this wrong, but don't some autoshufflers/CSMs have the ability to sort the cards at the push of a button?


Yes.

At last year's G2E I saw Roger Snow demo one at the SHFL booth.

He spread two decks fade up. They were sufficiently random. He put one in the machine on sort mode, then started picking cards as fast as a normal dealer would do to put it in standard order. He was about 45 cards in when the shuffler light indicated it was done.

He pulled it out and spread it. Yep, sorted correctly. Impressive speed.
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RaleighCraps
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June 4th, 2015 at 10:27:31 AM permalink
Quote: jml24

This would be the best way to do it, but I am pretty sure no current machines do that because of the precision required to pick a card from a specific position in the deck.



Since the order of the stack does not need to be maintained, I would simply move cards to a temp pile as I counted down to the correct card. Then combine the two stacks back into one, and count down to the next card position chosen. Crude, but would not require precision equipment.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Dieter
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June 4th, 2015 at 11:10:12 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I would use an RNG to pick a number from 1 to 52, and then grab that position card from the stack, and put it in the 'shuffled' pile.
I would then use the RNG to pick a number from 1 to 51, and grab that position card from the stack, and place it on top of the 'shuffled' pile.
Keep repeating until all 52 cards are in the shuffled pile.
There would be no bias at all in this shuffle.



My understanding is that "elevator" shufflers do exactly this, but... backwards.

They take the next card from the unshuffled deck, and deliver it to a specific (random) card position in the output deck.

The grippers that hold the output deck keep the gaps open until it's time to deliver a shuffled deck.

My understanding is that the mechanics of this are too slow to be practical for a single deck shuffler, and that single deck shufflers use a wheel.
May the cards fall in your favor.
RaleighCraps
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June 4th, 2015 at 11:18:45 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

Hope I'm not violating any rules here, but here's a Stanford paper on a shuffler using an RNG

http://statweb.stanford.edu/~susan/papers/casino.pdf



Great link. Too bad every thing but the first page was way over my head. Darn math geeks are going to rule the world......... :-)
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
teliot
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June 4th, 2015 at 12:09:13 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

Great link. Too bad every thing but the first page was way over my head. Darn math geeks are going to rule the world......... :-)

It says that they were able to predict about 9 cards out of 52 after the shuffle from a shuffler that no longer exists. The expected number of cards that one should be able to predict is simply the sum 1/52 + 1/51 + 1/50 + ... + 1/2 + 1/1 = 4.538. Their work simply proved that the shuffler was flawed, and that they could exploit it in a live casino if they wished. It had nothing to do with the shuffler cheating players.

The issue of APs exploiting shufflers by opening them up and seeing how they work is not going away anytime soon. It's one of those "hush hush" methods that APs would rather not have mentioned in a public forum.
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Tanko
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June 4th, 2015 at 12:48:49 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

He pulled it out and spread it. Yep, sorted correctly. Impressive speed.



Then perhaps the shuffler can also produce shoes with no bias, where everyone, including the dealer consistently gets a stiff hand.

That automatically favors the house.

No need to remove aces, or push a few more tens to the unused portion of the shoe.

Just make sure there are no clumps of higher value cards that could favor the player.
MangoJ
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June 4th, 2015 at 3:59:10 PM permalink
Quote: Tanko

Just make sure there are no clumps of higher value cards that could favor the player.



How you the shuffler know the number of players ?
Ibeatyouraces
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June 4th, 2015 at 4:29:50 PM permalink
Quote: MangoJ

How you the shuffler know the number of players ?


Have you been drinking? :-)
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kewlj
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June 4th, 2015 at 4:49:43 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Maybe I heard this wrong, but don't some autoshufflers/CSMs have the ability to sort the cards at the push of a button?



I have never heard of a "button". But I have heard of needing a code to have the machine do this. Presumably this would be so that only certain people have access to this.

This is clearly against the law and will have to be addressed legally at some point in the near future. The argument that they have this technology but are not using just will not fly. And as the public becomes aware that the machines are capable of this, then the public loses confidence and all integrity and confidence in the industry is lost.
RaleighCraps
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June 4th, 2015 at 7:51:54 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

It says that they were able to predict about 9 cards out of 52 after the shuffle from a shuffler that no longer exists. The expected number of cards that one should be able to predict is simply the sum 1/52 + 1/51 + 1/50 + ... + 1/2 + 1/1 = 4.538. Their work simply proved that the shuffler was flawed, and that they could exploit it in a live casino if they wished. It had nothing to do with the shuffler cheating players.

The issue of APs exploiting shufflers by opening them up and seeing how they work is not going away anytime soon. It's one of those "hush hush" methods that APs would rather not have mentioned in a public forum.



I was still comprehending the document when they wrote about how they had demonstrated that they could reasonably expect to predict 9 cards in the one time shuffle, versus a normal hand shuffle where only 4 /12 cards could be predicted. (Thanks for the formula for how they arrived at the 4.538). Once all the math started though, it was mostly hopeless slogging for me.
I think I was reading that if the number of shelves was increased ,that the number of predictable cards would drop. What I was trying to figure out though, once they started putting cards randomly on the top, or on the bottom, of a given shelf, did that effectively give them 20 shelves? Along that same line, are they saying that if they were shuffling a 52 card deck, and it used 52 shelves, that a one pass shuffle using a RNG would not have any bias?
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
cmc0605
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:33:14 PM permalink
When I was in Mt. Airy (in PA) some time ago this guy next to me hit quad 10s in Crazy 4 poker, and the pit boss said they had to check the cards. Usually I see them take out the cards by hand to make sure there aren't any 10s in the deck, but she just looked at a screen attached to the shuffler and said "yea, he was dealt quad 10's."

I was pretty shocked. I don't like it, but I trust they are doing thing fairly.
100xOdds
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:43:02 PM permalink
the auto-shufflers in a poker room can re-arrange a deck back in order.
I've seen it demo'd.

I assume the cards aren't tracked as they are shuffled so when the dealer grabs the deck, no one knows what the cards are.

for a baccarat table, I assume the cards coming out are read by optical.
it would be nuts for the machine to know all the cards in the shoe before it is dealt.

a crooked pit boss could easily signal someone at the table before the cards are dealt.
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beachbumbabs
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June 5th, 2015 at 2:48:12 AM permalink
I asked about the shufflers when I first got here, and was told the following:

The PGP shuffler does a manual random shuffle inside, not a sort based on RNG values. There is an optical scanner on the lip of the shuffler that reads the cards as they're pushed into the packets the dealer hands to the players.

Those shufflers are capable of sorting the cards. It takes a key turning the shuffler from "play" mode to "sort" mode to do it. The key is usually not in the machine; it's held by the pit elsewhere, but that would be up to the casino.

The number generator is on a separate RNG that reports back to the shuffler so it can correlate the hands it read to the player position. This is both to verify house way if necessary, and to verify bonus hands have their correct content.

Source was Roger Snow and Dan Lubin (mostly Dan). Too tired to go find the threads but look for PaiGowDan comments on shufflers and PaiGowPoker if you want a longer/more detailed discussion.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Tanko
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June 5th, 2015 at 4:22:07 AM permalink
Quote: MangoJ

How you the shuffler know the number of players ?



No need to, because the count would be neutral throughout the shoe.

You can simulate this condition with Casino Verit'e, which allows you to adjust the bias of the shoe.

Lots of lows and neutrals mixed in between high value cards can make Blackjacks scarce as well.

That's all it would take.
AxelWolf
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June 5th, 2015 at 4:26:25 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

. It's one of those "hush hush" methods that APs would rather not have mentioned in a public forum.

Sounds like a wonderful idea.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
CharmedQuark
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June 6th, 2015 at 8:36:24 AM permalink
Here in southern AZ the casinos use auto-shufflers on most games except BJ.

Primarily, I'm a UTH player and follow the BS religiously - no trips. Variance aside, recently I have had way too many bad beats getting mauled on 4X bets. Playing $15-$15 my $1500 bankroll gets rapidly diminished early in the session and I rarely recover. And it seems I get the 4X playable hands less and less into the session and then struggle winning a 2X or even 1X bet. The dealer hand usually hits the board. You can almost call it before the dealer turns their hole cards. This happens at both casinos where i play and way too frequently, but it's gambling and maybe I need to find a different game - hmmm different casino?? Maybe move to HCF even with it's HE. I quit playing PGP because of similar experience.

I want to think that everything is on the up and up with the auto-shufflers and I'm just picking the wrong seat, wrong table, wrong casino, wrong time to play. And it's all coincidental!! But I do not believe in coincidences.
Tanko
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June 6th, 2015 at 10:09:28 AM permalink
Quote: CharmedQuark

Here in southern AZ the casinos use auto-shufflers on most games except BJ.



What casinos are those?

I'll have to travel further south.

My experience with Twin Arrows, Bucky's, and Cliff Castle has been the dealer never shuffles the cards for Blackjack.

Strictly auto-shufflers.

Okay rules, but no surrender.

"There is no surrender on the Navajo Reservation" -Dealer
champ724
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June 6th, 2015 at 10:21:09 AM permalink
auto shufflers in blackjack hurt card counters but the cards can't be rigged like they can in paigow just cause of human hit or stand factors. paigow it knows where each hand goes and can deal the dealer the best hand at will.
CharmedQuark
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June 6th, 2015 at 11:23:13 AM permalink
I play at Desert Diamond and Casino del Sol on the south side of Tucson. If you go, wait until late afternoon as some of these carnival games aren't opened (lack of players -snowbirds have left for the summer). Desert Diamond usually has one UTH table open most of the time. I don't play BJ, I guess these are decent games except for hit soft 17. I have seen surrender used. Six, 8 and some three deck games. Watching the tables it appears a shoe is used (maybe auto-shuffle before placing cards in shoe) and dealers placing cut cards. I have seen dealers shuffle especially the three deck games (usually $25 min).
cyrus
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June 6th, 2015 at 12:11:17 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I asked about the shufflers when I first got here, and was told the following:

The PGP shuffler does a manual random shuffle inside, not a sort based on RNG values. There is an optical scanner on the lip of the shuffler that reads the cards as they're pushed into the packets the dealer hands to the players.

Those shufflers are capable of sorting the cards. It takes a key turning the shuffler from "play" mode to "sort" mode to do it. The key is usually not in the machine; it's held by the pit elsewhere, but that would be up to the casino.

The number generator is on a separate RNG that reports back to the shuffler so it can correlate the hands it read to the player position. This is both to verify house way if necessary, and to verify bonus hands have their correct content.

Source was Roger Snow and Dan Lubin (mostly Dan). Too tired to go find the threads but look for PaiGowDan comments on shufflers and PaiGowPoker if you want a longer/more detailed discussion.



Thanks for the info BBB! And the others who provided additional facts.

I somehow feel better that the shuffle itself is still physically randomized.
Dieter
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June 6th, 2015 at 12:52:14 PM permalink
Quote: champ724

auto shufflers in blackjack hurt card counters



Auto-shufflers, or CSMs?
May the cards fall in your favor.
SanchoPanza
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June 6th, 2015 at 1:00:11 PM permalink
Quote: champ724

auto shufflers in blackjack hurt card counters but the cards can't be rigged like they can in paigow just cause of human hit or stand factors. paigow it knows where each hand goes and can deal the dealer the best hand at will.

In that case, why do the gambling commissions in the various states allow such machines? That ain't "gambling" (or even the euphemistic "gaming") any more.
Dalex64
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June 6th, 2015 at 1:36:30 PM permalink
Quote: champ724

auto shufflers in blackjack hurt card counters but the cards can't be rigged like they can in paigow just cause of human hit or stand factors. paigow it knows where each hand goes and can deal the dealer the best hand at will.



I thought the determination of where the packet of cards go was determined an external-to-the-shuffler roll of the dice.
RaleighCraps
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June 6th, 2015 at 1:54:31 PM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

I thought the determination of where the packet of cards go was determined an external-to-the-shuffler roll of the dice.


That is the older way. The new way is an LED number that is probably done via a RNG. I have not seen a die used in a couple of years.
The problem with doing that is now there is the ability to coordinate the placement of the hands. I don't think it is being done, but it certainly would be easy to do.
If they would just go back to using the dice, there would be much less suspicion.

I got so tired of seeing the dealer never bust in BJ that I swore off any game that was not hand shuffled. But the last time I played on a hand shuffled game, once again I witnessed the dealer go into a never bust mode. The only time the dealer would bust would be if a player made a move against BS. Then the dealer would occasionally bust. I know the last two sentences are a bunch of crap, but that was just the way it felt. But it did point out to me that it is not just games with shufflers where the dealer can get into no bust mode.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
BlueEagle
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June 7th, 2015 at 6:01:24 AM permalink
My first time playing Pai Gow Poker was last week at Bally's in LV. There is a little screen in the middle of the table that shows where to start the deal and what the dealer's low hand should be. I asked whether the table had card readers or if a camera was used to read the dealer's hand (since she always set her hand before pressing the on-screen buttons to show it on the screen.) She said that the shuffler reads the cards and knows what everybody's hand is. That made me a little uneasy, but I trust that the info is used for security rather than house advantage.

I asked why she didn't show what the low hand should be when a player banked, and she said they didn't know the procedure to show other player's cards. I didn't understand why it was anything different than when the dealer banked.

I played at another casino the other day where the dealer uses three dice to determine starting position, but the shuffler knew the cards for every packet. I was sitting next to the shuffler, and it appeared to scan each card as they came out.

I like the screen showing what the dealer's hand should be so that there is no questioning how the dealer set it. The starting position is shown before the packets are dealt out, so I don't think the house can use this to predetermine which seat gets which packet (since the cards haven't been scanned yet.)
SanchoPanza
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June 7th, 2015 at 10:21:07 AM permalink
Quote: BlueEagle

I like the screen showing what the dealer's hand should be so that there is no questioning how the dealer set it. The starting position is shown before the packets are dealt out, so I don't think the house can use this to predetermine which seat gets which packet (since the cards haven't been scanned yet.)

For me, it is none of the casino's business what my hand is before I have to show it. I'm also skeptical when I fold and the dealer turns over the cards in my hand, supposedly trying to help. That's as much BS as when you color up and they want to see all your chips, not just the reds and, maybe, the greens.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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June 7th, 2015 at 12:49:12 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Quote: BlueEagle

I like the screen showing what the dealer's hand should be so that there is no questioning how the dealer set it. The starting position is shown before the packets are dealt out, so I don't think the house can use this to predetermine which seat gets which packet (since the cards haven't been scanned yet.)

For me, it is none of the casino's business what my hand is before I have to show it. I'm also skeptical when I fold and the dealer turns over the cards in my hand, supposedly trying to help. That's as much BS as when you color up and they want to see all your chips, not just the reds and, maybe, the greens.


Coloring up, and what do you show, and what do they want to see, and you squirreled some purples into your pocket. There's an idea for a thread, me thinks. Like that? I got the squirrels in there just for MSally.
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Zcore13
Zcore13
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June 10th, 2015 at 2:31:45 PM permalink
I've been away from this thread for a few days and it looks like it died, but I do have some information on a few of the items brought up so if in the future people read this thread there is more accurate information.

Quote: SanchoPanza

I'm also skeptical when I fold and the dealer turns over the cards in my hand, supposedly trying to help. That's as much BS as when you color up and they want to see all your chips, not just the reds and, maybe, the greens.



It depends on the reason they are turning the cards over. At my casino we allow people to fold on wagers against the dealer, but never against a pay table. So if you fold your cards in Three Card Poker, but have played the Pair Plus we expose the cards and would pay the bet if it was a winner (mistakenly discarded). This happens when someone misses a straight most of the time, but sometimes a flush as well. Players rarely miss pairs and never trips. So I wouldn't call that BS when your folded cards are being exposed.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I asked about the shufflers when I first got here, and was told the following:

The PGP shuffler does a manual random shuffle inside, not a sort based on RNG values. There is an optical scanner on the lip of the shuffler that reads the cards as they're pushed into the packets the dealer hands to the players.

Those shufflers are capable of sorting the cards. It takes a key turning the shuffler from "play" mode to "sort" mode to do it. The key is usually not in the machine; it's held by the pit elsewhere, but that would be up to the casino.

The number generator is on a separate RNG that reports back to the shuffler so it can correlate the hands it read to the player position. This is both to verify house way if necessary, and to verify bonus hands have their correct content.

Source was Roger Snow and Dan Lubin (mostly Dan). Too tired to go find the threads but look for PaiGowDan comments on shufflers and PaiGowPoker if you want a longer/more detailed discussion.



This is actually how it is done, which comes word for word from the latest GLI report dated 06/03/15 for the I-Deal Plus, which is the same as the I-Deal shuffler except it has a screen facing the players for advertising and table limits to be displayed. If you can imagine a small ferris wheel inside the shuffler, with compartments instead of places to sit, you can picture what is described below.


Quote: GLI

At the beginning of each cycle, the Random Number Generator assigns each card a compartment number for making the hands and for the discards. The device then places the corresponding card into the assigned compartment, producing random sets of cards based on the number of cards per hand. When the dealer places the un-shuffled deck in to the input feeder and presses the green button the unloading process of each hand begins. The hands are randomly unloaded and the discard compartments are always unloaded last.

Using the card recognition functionality the cards are counted as they are shuffled in. The shuffle is aborted and the device will display any missing or extra cards detected.

Using the Sorting mode the device can sort a shuffled deck of cards back in precise order.



GLI certifies that the machine is random and I know for a fact there are no settings or adjustments that can be made to the machine to alter the randomness of the deal. The machine does not know what seats are being played or which pack of cards will be given to which seat or which pack of cards will be the dealers.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
PGBuster
PGBuster
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June 23rd, 2015 at 12:12:49 PM permalink
Quote: MangoJ

How you the shuffler know the number of players ?

Not saying this is what happens at all, but if a table was full and everyone was playing the progressive, it would absolutely know how many people were playing.

The newer machines don't require a key to sort. It requires the press of a button.
Diogenes
Diogenes
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August 30th, 2016 at 5:58:53 AM permalink
Search for "google patent us6299167"

The shuffle machine described there does precisely pick cards from the card stack.
CyrusV
CyrusV
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August 30th, 2016 at 8:26:45 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

for a baccarat table, I assume the cards coming out are read by optical.
it would be nuts for the machine to know all the cards in the shoe before it is dealt.

a crooked pit boss could easily signal someone at the table before the cards are dealt.

Correct, the cards are coded so while they are being squeezed there is no chance of them being swapped.

If this cheap piece of equipment can track all cards, then the $60k+ Angel Eye equipment surely is also capable of doing the same as this youtube video shows, doubtable if any pit-boss would have access to this information.

JESUS1
JESUS1
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April 2nd, 2018 at 2:07:48 PM permalink
YES!, Totally Possible to Rig the CSM machines and it is done often!
Especially to ward off unwanted , advantaged or lucky players with high winnings or long streaks-
Unbealivably done and flawlessley.
I´m sorry to break the news, it is question is on so many forums and no one dares say the truth.. or it is censured.. I built 3 casinos and have worked tightly with owners.. they mentioned it but after being an advantaged player at competeing casinos of those I built.. well I must let you all know the truth, the cards can be put at random shuffle or in ORDER shuffle. In Order Shuffle cards can be read. And in my case being an advantaged player as well ,I am not welcomed at most casinos, at those casinos especially those run By Cirsa - Codere they will Order the cards as soon as I hit their tables.The dealers know me and or pit bosses do and will delay the game a bit then the action begins giving dealer constant 20 and 21 and blackjack or extended 2,3,5,4,2,3,2 amazing but true I just laugh and smile and give their cameras and dealers a thubs up and play Baccarat or Poker. They know that I know what they do and accept it and so do I I don't play the house on those games, I can only pla fairly or be treated fairly at casinos where I am not known. I somethimes outrack them playing 2 or three hands and back to one hand but they will win, the stacking is made so perfectly and at the end that it wil beat all the changes made or disorientations I have tried on the machines , like playing 2 and 3 hand and back to one hand.. impossible still. Confromted one day I told them I knew and the said .. ¨so if you know just dont play us in Blackjack or the house stick to holdem Poker and do not challenge us..¨ , they told me. All CSM can do it but the One to Six is the best at it.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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April 2nd, 2018 at 3:57:56 PM permalink
Quote: JESUS1

YES!, Totally Possible to Rig the CSM machines and it is done often!
Especially to ward off unwanted , advantaged or lucky players with high winnings or long streaks-
Unbealivably done and flawlessley.
I´m sorry to break the news, it is question is on so many forums and no one dares say the truth.. or it is censured.. I built 3 casinos and have worked tightly with owners.. they mentioned it but after being an advantaged player at competeing casinos of those I built.. well I must let you all know the truth, the cards can be put at random shuffle or in ORDER shuffle. In Order Shuffle cards can be read. And in my case being an advantaged player as well ,I am not welcomed at most casinos, at those casinos especially those run By Cirsa - Codere they will Order the cards as soon as I hit their tables.The dealers know me and or pit bosses do and will delay the game a bit then the action begins giving dealer constant 20 and 21 and blackjack or extended 2,3,5,4,2,3,2 amazing but true I just laugh and smile and give their cameras and dealers a thubs up and play Baccarat or Poker. They know that I know what they do and accept it and so do I I don't play the house on those games, I can only pla fairly or be treated fairly at casinos where I am not known. I somethimes outrack them playing 2 or three hands and back to one hand but they will win, the stacking is made so perfectly and at the end that it wil beat all the changes made or disorientations I have tried on the machines , like playing 2 and 3 hand and back to one hand.. impossible still. Confromted one day I told them I knew and the said .. ¨so if you know just dont play us in Blackjack or the house stick to holdem Poker and do not challenge us..¨ , they told me. All CSM can do it but the One to Six is the best at it.



I couldn't even finish that mess of rubbish. You're not an advantage player. You aren't close to any casino owners and the shuffler can't be put in any type of order shuffle to combat lucky or good players.

I'll ask just one question because I know you are not long for this forum. How does the shuffler know how many people are at the table playing or how many hands a person will play each deal?


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
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April 2nd, 2018 at 6:08:15 PM permalink
Quote: JESUS1

YES!, Totally Possible to Rig the CSM machines and it is done often!
Especially to ward off unwanted , advantaged or lucky players with high winnings or long streaks-
Unbealivably done and flawlessley.
I´m sorry to break the news, it is question is on so many forums and no one dares say the truth.. or it is censured.. I built 3 casinos and have worked tightly with owners.. they mentioned it but after being an advantaged player at competeing casinos of those I built.. well I must let you all know the truth, the cards can be put at random shuffle or in ORDER shuffle. In Order Shuffle cards can be read. And in my case being an advantaged player as well ,I am not welcomed at most casinos, at those casinos especially those run By Cirsa - Codere they will Order the cards as soon as I hit their tables.The dealers know me and or pit bosses do and will delay the game a bit then the action begins giving dealer constant 20 and 21 and blackjack or extended 2,3,5,4,2,3,2 amazing but true I just laugh and smile and give their cameras and dealers a thubs up and play Baccarat or Poker. They know that I know what they do and accept it and so do I I don't play the house on those games, I can only pla fairly or be treated fairly at casinos where I am not known. I somethimes outrack them playing 2 or three hands and back to one hand but they will win, the stacking is made so perfectly and at the end that it wil beat all the changes made or disorientations I have tried on the machines , like playing 2 and 3 hand and back to one hand.. impossible still. Confromted one day I told them I knew and the said .. ¨so if you know just dont play us in Blackjack or the house stick to holdem Poker and do not challenge us..¨ , they told me. All CSM can do it but the One to Six is the best at it.



You have pasted the same response in three different threads. This is called Flooding, and is against the forum rules.

3 day suspension. If you do it again upon your return, it will be a nuke for flooding/spamming. Thank you.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Venthus
Venthus
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April 2nd, 2018 at 10:56:26 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I'll ask just one question because I know you are not long for this forum. How does the shuffler know how many people are at the table playing or how many hands a person will play each deal?



That's actually something related to something I've wondered about on and off for years-- is it possible to structure a BJ deck (or shoe) such that an arbitrary and variable number of people flatbetting and playing deterministically and (mostly) rationally CANNOT finish the shoe ahead?

For example, 1-5 players per hand, a randomly determined personality on each, and 5% chance they'll sit out a given hand. Personalities include always splitting 88, never doubling soft hands, only doubling 11 when the dealer card is not 10, etc. but they always adhere to their ruleset. Fairly common deviations off of BS, nothing like hitting hard 21s.
Zcore13
Zcore13
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April 3rd, 2018 at 12:05:13 AM permalink
Quote: Venthus

That's actually something related to something I've wondered about on and off for years-- is it possible to structure a BJ deck (or shoe) such that an arbitrary and variable number of people flatbetting and playing deterministically and (mostly) rationally CANNOT finish the shoe ahead?

For example, 1-5 players per hand, a randomly determined personality on each, and 5% chance they'll sit out a given hand. Personalities include always splitting 88, never doubling soft hands, only doubling 11 when the dealer card is not 10, etc. but they always adhere to their ruleset. Fairly common deviations off of BS, nothing like hitting hard 21s.



I don't think there is any chance. What if someone leaves the table completely? What if one person sometimes hits 16 and sometimes doesnt? What if a couple players double with an Ace against a Face, but others are scared?


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
GlenG
GlenG
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April 3rd, 2018 at 1:09:00 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I don't think there is any chance. What if someone leaves the table completely? What if one person sometimes hits 16 and sometimes doesnt? What if a couple players double with an Ace against a Face, but others are scared?


ZCore13



Don't forget the cut card.
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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April 3rd, 2018 at 6:31:04 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I don't think there is any chance. What if someone leaves the table completely?



I agree that casinos are not so stupid to risk their gaming license by trying to set the shuffled cards a certain way. And, your point about the shuffle machine not knowing the number of players IMHO provides evidence for the casino not even trying to do it.

However, some games deal cards to every player position, even if the spot is empty. For example, this is done in High Card Flush and in Pai Gow Poker. I have played at PGP tables where the Dealer has a screen that can display the cards dealt to any position. Mostly, the Dealer uses the device to verify his/her hand was correctly set to the "House Way." But, on occasion a player may ask the Dealer how the House would set a confusing hand, and the Dealer checks the electronic gadget on behalf of the player. So, the dealt cards are known to the shuffle machine, but not likely set a certain way by the shuffle machine.

Also, when players bet more than one hand, the second hand (always in my experience) must be set the House Way, so the Player derives no advantage from seeing cards in the other hand. However, sometimes the player will dispute how the Dealer set the Hi-Lo cards for the player's second hand. The gadget confirms whether the Dealer set the player's hand correctly or not. On rare occasions, I have seen the gadget confirm as House Way what the player wanted and not what the Dealer originally set for the Player hand. In that case, the machine knowing the cards and also knowing the House Way, works to benefit the player.

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