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ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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Mission146aceside
July 5th, 2021 at 3:17:08 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

In case it strikes you that the strategy of memorizing a card for each situation, then work out a succession, is a lot of memorization, yeah it is. I'm not there yet, but until recently I had only worked out when a K or Q is good in the 'hole card outkicks' situation.


Everyone says "memorize." The one time I played UTH, I had my strategy card on the table, and nobody complained about it.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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Mission146aceside
July 6th, 2021 at 4:22:25 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Everyone says "memorize." The one time I played UTH, I had my strategy card on the table, and nobody complained about it.

OK, I had to defend this against MIssion's pushback, this is a different angle, I appreciate the feedback. 


"Memorize" sounds like 'back-to-school' and having to do rote stuff that you hate. Wrong choice of words. 


Fact is, if you play enough poker, or BJ, whatever, your actions become more automatic and it's a good thing. I can't imagine someone playing a lot of UTH and knowing about the 21 outs, then not noticing that when the board is a picket fence rainbow, that a King is always qualified as a kicker for the 21 out rule. As Mission mentioned, soon you realize a Queen is almost always qualified too, and soon that gets to be automatic when the board has one pair. Until now, I hadn't noticed the exact circumstances where a Jack or 10 was good, but often would instinctively 'just know'. I think it would be better to nail this down and I'm trying to get there. 


I say it's a good thing because folding is so often not the right thing at the 1x decision! Think of all this for a poker newbie. At each phase's decision, he has to be alert, the opening and the turn to start. Now he is at the last decision for 1x. Checking for an unseen straight simultaneously with a last-cards pairing or flush, then making sure you fully notice the board's potentials for pushing and also for 4-card flushes and open-ended straights that you didn't make but the dealer still could, and with all that finally double-checked deciding if you can outkick the board and if so start counting for the outs... it's a lot. To use Mission as an example, he's played enough that all these decisions are made in an instant except he might take time counting the outs. Almost any poker player beyond newbie makes at least most of these automatically too. It's a huge benefit. 


So that's my case for more automatic, instinctive play the better. The less you have to actually count the outs, I say, is for the better too, strategy card handy or not.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
aceside
aceside
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Mission146
July 6th, 2021 at 12:05:15 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Everyone says "memorize." The one time I played UTH, I had my strategy card on the table, and nobody complained about it.


I memorize the wizard’s strategy card for UTH and Heads up Holdem because it is simple, but I need a more advanced strategy card, the one made by James Grosjean. Is there a download version of it somewhere?
odiousgambit
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Mission146
July 7th, 2021 at 12:42:05 PM permalink
I don't know who might be checking for errors to my compilation, though I asked Mission to if he has time. In the meantime, I have found the below editing to be appropriate ... unless you find an error!! The added part is in bold.

Can't Outkick Situation 2. One pair, 11 outs, and there are 3 cards that represent kicker situations. These 3 need to be Ace through Jack, any combination, otherwise there are 2 cards that the dealer could have that will add 8 more outs = 19. If the pair consists of AA, KK, QQ, or JJ, succession to A through 10, any combination, is good. 

Can't Outkick Situation 4. Board has Trips representing 7 outs, with two cards that represent kicker situations. These two need to be Ace through J, any combo again, to keep the dealer from having 3 more possible outs. If the Trips consist of AAA, KKK, QQQ, or JJJ, succession to A through 10, any combination, is good. 
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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Mission146aceside
July 7th, 2021 at 12:48:13 PM permalink
Quote: aceside

I memorize the wizard’s strategy card for UTH and Heads up Holdem because it is simple, but I need a more advanced strategy card, the one made by James Grosjean. Is there a download version of it somewhere?

Hey, wait a minute, I'm going to make a table and that's all you need ! jk!

actually the table will cover only the 1x situation and I wouldn't be considered worthy to hold the jock straps of Grosjean, true enough.

I only know about the Las Vegas Advisor dot com strategy card, which is mailed to you.
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Jul 7, 2021
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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Mission146aceside
July 7th, 2021 at 1:56:15 PM permalink
Here is the table, subject to correction. If I don't get errors or advice about better tables, I'll make a blog post too to make it easier to find



       
       
       
             
                     
You Can Outkick BoardAction Indicated
1 . Board = 4 card flush or open-ended straight Fold the kicker 
2. Unpaired Rainbow Board K is good, succession good.
3. Board has One Pair Q is good, succession rule good.
4. Board has Trips J is good, succession good
5. Board = Two Pair of 7 outs type.  J is good, succession good
6. Board has Two Pair and 4 outs!!   10 is good, succession is good.
7. Board has 4 OAK,  7-card is good, succession is good


>>>


             
             
       
               
Board Kicker Outkicks Action Indicated
1. If the board doesn't have a pair or better    "don't play the board" 
2. Board Has One Pair Combination of 3: A thru Jack, any comb, succession to A-10, any comb
3. Board has Two Pair representing 7 outs Q is good, succession is good
4. Board has Trips and 7 outs Combination of 2: A thru J, any comb, succession to A-10, any comb
5. Board has Two Pair representing 4 outs!  Need one pair JJ+, count the outs! If 18+, fold.
6. Board has 4 OAK 10-card is good, succession is good.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Mission146
Mission146
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July 7th, 2021 at 4:53:47 PM permalink
I’ll have to look over it more thoroughly, but Rule 3 doesn’t always work with an inside straight draw.

Player: Q2

Board: 34677

Fold

Rule 4 doesn’t work with a three flush and all undercards on the board if there is also a two card holding that can result in a straight if your kicker doesn’t beat anything on the board and the board cards are all low. (That’s really getting in the weeds though and is only sometimes true…J2 and sometimes J3 and J4…rarely J5 even) Basically, both straights and flushes must be possible for the dealer and your second kicker doesn’t beat anything on the board.

Player: J2

Board 3d4d7d7h7s

Fold
Last edited by: Mission146 on Jul 7, 2021
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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July 7th, 2021 at 5:19:27 PM permalink
I might be misunderstanding Rule 6, but I don’t think that works if the two pair are low and the other card on the board is higher than either pair.

Player:10,8

Board: 66449

Fold
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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July 7th, 2021 at 5:20:47 PM permalink
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding any of these.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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Mission146
July 7th, 2021 at 5:49:05 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I’ll have to look over it more thoroughly, but Rule 3 doesn’t always work with an inside straight draw.

Player: Q2

Board: 34677

Fold

Rule 4 doesn’t work with a three flush and all undercards on the board if there is also a two card holding that can result in a straight if your kicker doesn’t beat anything on the board and the board cards are all low. (That’s really getting in the weeds though and is only sometimes true…J2 and sometimes J3 and J4…rarely J5 even) Basically, both straights and flushes must be possible for the dealer and your second kicker doesn’t beat anything on the board.

Player: J2

Board 3d4d7d7h7s

Fold

Thanks for coming across those

Notice though that for counting the dealer outs it doesn't change. So this comes down to "do I list the exceptions or not" ... maybe an asterisk ?

Quote: Mission146

I might be misunderstanding Rule 6, but I don’t think that works if the two pair are low and the other card on the board is higher than either pair.

Player:10,8

Board: 66449

Fold

66449 would not be rule 6 [first table] because there are 7 outs as board, not 4. It would be rule 5, in which the J is required to allow 3 more outs only = 19 [while 20 are allowed]

Thanks, it is easy to get lost in the wilderness here
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

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