Pai Gow Tiles - Commission Free game

How difficult would it be to set up a Pai Gow tiles game with no commission? Removing commission would reduce the house edge, but could this be offset by a mechanism similar to that found in no commission Pai Gow Poker, or no commission Baccarat? Which hands would be used for this, i.e. how would the house edge be affected if a dealers hand with a wong was deemed as a push if the player has a higher hand? All thoughts and opinions welcome, but I do hope JB or Wizard may share some of their knowledge.

Commission-free tiles, with present rules, would be a zero HE game if the player and dealer alternated banking and the player set his/her hands in the House Way. Beyond that, it'd be a +EV game for players of any additional skill.

I'm not sure why you'd want to change the rules; the game's already terribly complicated, many players have cultural attachments to it, dealers have to be trained for hours to understand the current rules and house way/strategy, and the game has been around for centuries. (Pai gow poker, by contrast, dates to 1985.)

You're asking a question that people here (including the Wizard) often get paid to answer. To answer your question, one could use the data available on WoO to figure out all the cases in which Dealer Wong or Pair loses all Player Wong or Pairs, and switch around those probabilities. You're probably not getting to the current house edge(s) in the house way vs. house way match-up. Obviously then optimal or advanced strategies have to be re-drawn, and I don't think you're going to have many volunteers to do that. (I could be wrong.)

That said, welcome to the forum.

The dealer has an inbuilt advantage of winning all ties and all 0-0 scores. The main problem is they have to use a house way that is sub-optimal, so need some commission. The other factor is that if a dealer plays one way (e.g. making best low with 4/5) then it can be better for the player to play opposite (to play 0/9). I haven't done the maths but can't imagine much of a house edge would be left even if the dealer played "perfectly" and players can always set their hand to "house way". Also I've seen players discuss how many Teen and Days have gone - which some casinos seem to allow.

As players can take the bank, any idea such as used in Pai Gow poker wouldn't easily work.

Quote: AlFa

How difficult would it be to set up a Pai Gow tiles game with no commission? Removing commission would reduce the house edge, but could this be offset by a mechanism similar to that found in no commission Pai Gow Poker, or no commission Baccarat? Which hands would be used for this, i.e. how would the house edge be affected if a dealers hand with a wong was deemed as a push if the player has a higher hand? All thoughts and opinions welcome, but I do hope JB or Wizard may share some of their knowledge.

This has been done by Stanley Ko; I believe it is played in Australia. It bars one specific dealer's weak hand to recoup income to replace the commission, by not paying out on a rare hand that is a probable loser.

First, let me say thanks to all of who replied so far, your comments are appreciated.
The question came up during a recent debate, with a colleague arguing that it should be reasonably easy to set up a no-commission version of Pai Gow tiles game similar to no-commission Baccarat.
I've argued to the contrary, given the nature of Baccarat (pre-determined rules on drawing cards) versus Pai Gow tiles (player banking, player having the freedom to set their hand any way they like, etc.). In addition, Pai Gow has way more complexity than Baccarat. Still, the question remained.
To answer the question why would you abolish the commission, I think some of the benefits would be a somewhat faster game if the payout was a simple even money job.
I've tried looking up Stanly Ko, but all I've managed to find is Pai Gow poker, and a Pai Gow tiles side bet (Bonanza Pai Gow) which is apparently used in Australia.

I have been interested in this idea. If any game inventor is interested, I would be happy to collaborate on making this game. Pai Gow Poker and Baccarat have popular non-commission variants - why not Pai Gow Tiles?

Quote: harris

I have been interested in this idea. If any game inventor is interested, I would be happy to collaborate on making this game. Pai Gow Poker and Baccarat have popular non-commission variants - why not Pai Gow Tiles?
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Quite easy. Dealer hand of 2/1 is an auto push. Similar to queen high Pai Gow in EZ Pai Gow.

I think it works out to approximately the same house edge as regular commission Pai Gow tiles.

It's certainly possible to work out the best play for the Player (assuming you'd like to give recommendations when the Player is setting their hand); but difficult to develop a "simple strategy". Another problem is trying to get your hand on a House Way as, like PGP, there are a few variants which try to add better plays to the basic rules, typically strengthening or adding exceptions.

The wizard has the Fox-wood’s way, however I used to play in London where they seemed to have fewer exceptions. I suspect they got rid of it because the other Players used to chat about how many Teens and Days, and sometimes other tiles, presumably enabling them to play differently if no Teens/Days out.

A common problem with all these Pai Gow games is that the push rate at 40% is too high. Casino table games are meant to be a fight to resolve win or loss. Just like the push rate of blackjack is about 8%, and that of Ultimate Texas Hold’em poker is about 3%.

Another direction of renovation is to make Pai Gow Tiles face-up.

Quote: aceside

Another direction of renovation is to make Pai Gow Tiles face-up.
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I like this idea, it could speed up the game and ease worries of collusion.

Quote: aceside

A common problem with all these Pai Gow games is that the push rate at 40% is too high. Casino table games are meant to be a fight to resolve win or loss. Just like the push rate of blackjack is about 8%, and that of Ultimate Texas Hold’em poker is about 3%.

Another direction of renovation is to make Pai Gow Tiles face-up.
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Nope. The player edge without a rule change in ‘face up tiles’ would be ginormous. Hence whatever rule change would be needed to maintain a house edge would seem too off putting to make the game enticing for those that play already.

I have an idea to renovate these Pai Gow games and come up with a new idea. We divide the original one betting circle into two, one for the Low hand and the other for the High hand, and the wager amounts on these two circles do not need to be the same. However, the High hand wager must be the multiples
of the Low hand.

Another simple idea is a mandatory side-bet which pays if you get a good hand. I haven't done the maths, but the former has to be where there's really only one obvious way to play the hand or there's a pair. So perhaps 9/9 or better.
Someone may even be able to find an Ante/Raise mechanism like UTH.

Imaging that the High hand wager is up to two times of the Low hand wager, what would be the new house way? Could you please consider this math problem?

Quote: aceside

Imaging that the High hand wager is up to two times of the Low hand wager, what would be the new house way? Could you please consider this math problem?
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Not that it can’t be done, but must be quite a complex problem. And certainly interesting! But in real world play it would slow the game even more with the dealer having to either pay/push/or take 3 bets (side bet added) each hand from each player.

The house way and optimal player strategies would be FAR different from present strategies.

If we're only interested in speeding up play...

*You could mandate that all bets be made in multiples of $20, thus eliminated the quarter. Tables might also use special $20 chips.

*You could eliminate the tiles and replace them with cards depicting the tiles. These could be quickly shot out of an ASM in groups of four and thus eliminate the lengthy shuffle process.

*You could make it a punto banco game with the ASM shooting out a banker and a single player hand. These would both be set in the house way with the players wagering on which hand will win or that they'll push.

Obviously, traditional players won't like losing their physical tiles, much less their ability to set them. Still, if it means more placements in more casinos...

Another way to go might be to simply offer the game on a multiplay video machine, along with stuff like video poker and Keno. It would be like the one over at WoV except for real money. Players could then play at their own pace and the machine could (if needed) patiently teach them the game.

I vaguely remember seeing a game using a standard pack of cards which gave players four cards to make into Hi and Lo 2-card hands. It scored like Baccarat and I'm guessing pairs beat 9's etc. It would be simpler for the average punter to understand and can imagine the House Way might be easier. However I can appreciate the preference for handling tiles and the historical connections for the Tiles.

This game still exists in San Diego and is called Two Hand Baccarat or something. It’s not on my website yet.

^ Yes that's the one - https://www.sycuan.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Sycuan-Casino-Resort-Double-Hand-Baccarat.pdf
Many years ago (I was in Viejas the night Arizona Diamondbacks won world series, so it's 2001!) I did a long trip via every casino back then, to collect casino chips from San Diego, via many places including Tuscon, Cripple Creek, Black Hawk, Las Vegas, before heading to LA. So it might have been Sycuan where I saw it.