Tables minimums raised and lowered
Sure they lose players when the minimums go up, but for how long, and why?
Does the player go home? Play something else? Just wander around and sulk for a little while, then bite the bullet and play the higher minimum?
Bottom line: The amount they lose, for a few minutes, is well worth the gain.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Sure they lose players when the minimums go up, but for how long, and why?
Does the player go home? Play something else? Just wander around and sulk for a little while, then bite the bullet and play the higher minimum?
Since existing players can continue to bet at the previous minimum, I don't see why they would "sulk". The only ones that are really inconvenienced are those who might have been standing at the table waiting to play. But they might be able to get the lower minimum simply by asking, and be "grandfathered in" like others at the table.
Personally, I've had some luck requesting to play for less at empty tables, but only at Harrah's properties.
Not all casinos will grandfather player's for the minimum bets.
What HAS always bothered me to see an empty $10 table (with the dealer(s) just standing around) next to a full $5 table and the apparent refusal by the house to lower the minimum on the other table, which I think is an enormous waste of money.
And speaking of grandfathering, I've only ever experienced it downtown, where a friend and I were cheerily welcomed to play at the old minimum ($5 BJ) rather than the recently increased minimum ($10). Any time we asked on the Strip we always got a no (specifically at the Luxor at an off time, and there were about a dozen empty tables at $10-$25 minimums).
Quote: UWPeteO
What HAS always bothered me to see an empty $10 table (with the dealer(s) just standing around) next to a full $5 table and the apparent refusal by the house to lower the minimum on the other table, which I think is an enormous waste of money.
I can't agree more. Last time I was in the casino there were was a $10 TCP table that was open and empty for nearly the hour that I was playing 21+3 at the next table. The poor lady had to be bored out of her mind. I don't understand why they wouldn't just drop it to $5, rather than just have her stand there - on the clock - and get zero action for that long.
Except more players slows the game down. Even 7 $5 bettors might not be as good as 3 $10 bettors.Quote: UWPeteOWell I have to think that a half full table of $10 bettors is just as good as a full table of $5 bettors...
I'm on board there.Quote: UWPeteOWhat HAS always bothered me to see an empty $10 table (with the dealer(s) just standing around) next to a full $5 table and the apparent refusal by the house to lower the minimum on the other table, which I think is an enormous waste of money).
Only once have I been successful at getting the minimum lowered. It was about 5 years ago at Mohegan Sun, CT.
I don't think I understand the purpose of such a request, unless (1) it simultaneously increases the table maximum or (2) the player is being an ass and wants to run off the other players at the table.Quote: CroupierOur casino is the opposite. We have flat £2 minimums and you can request a table minimum to be raised.
Could you clarify?
Quote: DJTeddyBearExcept more players slows the game down. Even 7 $5 bettors might not be as good as 3 $10 bettors.
I think that's nailed it on the head right there. If you do an expected loss calculation (for the house) on Blackjack
6 $5 bettors: 350 per hour wagered (70 hph) * .0075 = 2.63 expected loss * 6 = 15.78 expected loss
3 $10 bettors - 800 per hour wagered (80 hph) * .0075 = 6 expected loss * 3 = 18
1 $25 bettor - 3000 per hour wagered (120 hph) * .0075 = 22.50 expected loss (almost double with only one player, versus 6).
Hence the reasons casinos love high minimums, one hour of a $25 table makes more money than 9 others at various levels per hour.
Now I realize, expected loss is not the same as what you would actually lose and/or play, but in this day and age, it appears expected loss is the driver behind some of these table decisions, in my opinion.
-B
Another factor is that my girlfriend won't play $10, but she will play $5 all day. Having a bunch of empty $10 tables makes the house lose both of our business when we're together -- $15/hand.
I bet a lot of other people seek out a low minimum and then bet at a higher level anyway. It's a psychological thing.
Quote: toastcmuI think that's nailed it on the head right there. If you do an expected loss calculation (for the house) on Blackjack6 $5 bettors: 350 per hour wagered (70 hph) * .0075 = 2.63 expected loss * 6 = 15.78 expected loss
3 $10 bettors - 800 per hour wagered (80 hph) * .0075 = 6 expected loss * 3 = 18
1 $25 bettor - 3000 per hour wagered (120 hph) * .0075 = 22.50 expected loss (almost double with only one player, versus 6).Hence the reasons casinos love high minimums, one hour of a $25 table makes more money than 9 others at various levels per hour. Now I realize, expected loss is not the same as what you would actually lose and/or play, but in this day and age, it appears expected loss is the driver behind some of these table decisions, in my opinion.
-B
Great answers. It make sense higher mins the house makes more since most people lose. I just have always believed(or thought) that a lower min would keep the tables packed vs high mins with people standing around.
Quote: nyuhoosierUpping the table minimum loses some borderline bettors like me. What I mean by "borderline" is that I usually bet $10/hand but will sometimes slump down to $5 if I've already reached my goal and I want a slow burn from there. So I look at a $5 table as insurance, and am much more likely to play, even though the casino will usually win the same amount from me as if it were a $10/table. Another factor is that my girlfriend won't play $10, but she will play $5 all day. Having a bunch of empty $10 tables makes the house lose both of our business when we're together -- $15/hand.I bet a lot of other people seek out a low minimum and then bet at a higher level anyway. It's a psychological thing.
I will go all day at a $5 table but put the brakes on a $10. especially if I feel like a hostage stuck at a remote casino.
Case in point. Four Queens downtown immediately raises its minimums if more than one player is on a craps table. Except during really busy times, they rarely have crowded tables, and they often have dealers standing at empty tables. El Cortez down the street has a lower minimum all the time and there seem to always be people playing craps.
Higher minimums probably result in higher revenue while people are playing. If no one is playing because they've gone next door to play somewhere else with lower minimums, the casino makes no revenue.
Bingo! Hence my original thread. Something is missing in their thinking when the casino rasies the min only to lose players. The logic is not there. I play the don't so I will spend an extended time and go through a lot of players on the craps table. When the table gets busy they raise the min only to lose the players. I keep thinking, "leave it low and keep the money flowing. Oh well. So much for logic. :) Also I was wondering, do the pit boss's have to bring in a certain dollar amout per hour per table. Like any sales job you have to bring dollars in to the company so the pit boss's hit when people are available by raising the mins.
Quote: ahiromuWhat's the highest anyone here has seen a craps min at? I would think 25, when and where was this?
Aria has $100. I saw a private table at MB and the guy was betting 10K Pass and had 1 million in the rack
Plaza in AC. $100 min., private table sign, one player, and an absurd amount of money in the rack. The rest of the tables were $10.
Quote: ahiromuInteresting... so is 100 the normal min for a private table?
Don't know if there is a normal min for private table. A couple of weeks ago I saw $100 craps, BJ and other open tables at Aria. One guy at MB had half a private table at $100. Another guy at MB had a private table, 3 dealers, 2 pit boss's and he was betting 10k on the pass with 3,4,5x odds and had 1 million in the rack.
Quote: DJTeddyBearNot all casinos will grandfather player's for the minimum bets.
I have never ever seen a casino that did not grandfather players at the minimum in place when they began their play.
This includes every casino in Laughlin and non-Strip LV.
For what it's worth.
Quote: MelmanI have never ever seen a casino that did not grandfather players at the minimum in place when they began their play.
This includes every casino in Laughlin and non-Strip LV.
For what it's worth.
Atlantic City will not grandfather bets. They give you 20 mins notice that the minimum is changing, and then expect you to play the minimum once it changes. Typically table limits are raised between 12p-2p and again between 5p-7p on the weekends, starting Fridays.
Quote: MelmanI have never ever seen a casino that did not grandfather players at the minimum in place when they began their play.
This includes every casino in Laughlin and non-Strip LV.
For what it's worth.
I have never been not grandfathered in Vegas even on the strip. I was able to stay at $10 when the craps table went to $25 at the Rio last fall. The most extreme case was the Flamingo on New Years Eve several years ago. I was at a $5 BJ table for several hours before mindnight and it worked it's way up to $100 by the time I left just before midnight to join my group. I was able to stay at $5 for the whole time I was there with no pressure to increase my bet. I was playing at Harrahs once and the largest betting player at the table didn't like the fact I had white chips in played. He bitched and whined until they changed the table to $25 but they still let me play at a $5 minimum. I stayed for some time just to piss him off since he was so rude even though the table was killing us both.
Quote: toastcmuAtlantic City will not grandfather bets. They give you 20 mins notice that the minimum is changing, and then expect you to play the minimum once it changes. Typically table limits are raised between 12p-2p and again between 5p-7p on the weekends, starting Fridays.
In Baccarat, I have seen them announce mid-shoe that the minimum will be changed after the next PLAYER win.
Quote: FatGeezusIn Baccarat, I have seen them announce mid-shoe that the minimum will be changed after the next PLAYER win.
That seems to make sense, the same way that minimums in Craps get raised after a shooter sevens out. In big-table baccarat, the same player keeps pulling cards from the shoe as long as the banker keeps winning, right? So it's kinda the same thing.
Quote: nyuhoosierI had a crazy woman scream at me at GVR for hitting a soft 18. Her comment to the dealer was "I've lived in Vegas for 10 years and I've never seen anyone hit an 18." I wish I had a ready comeback for such instances. Anybody know any?
"Well, there's a first time for everything, isn't there?"
...and one that I enjoy using when the occasion warrants, when someone complains about a hit I took or some such silly thing: "My prayers are with you in this difficult time."
"Well, there's a first time for everything, isn't there?"
...and one that I enjoy using when the occasion warrants, when someone complains about a hit I took or some such silly thing: "My prayers are with you in this difficult time."
Quote: nyuhoosierMy buddy once had a guy offer to pay him to leave the table -- that's how much of an asshole he was. He was betting more than $1,000/hand and my friend was betting $25. The friend just said "I don't want your money, buddy" and left. I'm always amused by people who swear your play is messing up their hands. I had a crazy woman scream at me at GVR for hitting a soft 18. Her comment to the dealer was "I've lived in Vegas for 10 years and I've never seen anyone hit an 18." I wish I had a ready comeback for such instances. Anybody know any?
Hmmm I would have taken the money! Maybe I belong more to the cheapovegas group, but hell as a 24 yearold I would welcome somebody to buy me dinner! As for the minimums, I have been grandfathered twice at Binions Pai Gow Poker, I love the $5 pai gow poker, Silver Legacy in Reno has it all the time as well as $10 Pai Gow (as does Peppermill). For someone that just wants to have fun playing the low limits are great! I do think casinos will get more action with lower minimums. I was at Harrah's in Las Vegas and I asked the pit guy to lower the baccarat from $25 to $10 for me to play, he complied saying if someone else sat down at the table I would have to bet $25 that's how slow it was there! One fun Baccarat story, I took the Wiz's advice and always bet banker when I was playing at the Rio. The dealer was dealing at lightning speed, he was so fast, he didnt even keep track of commission he just took it out. I have never seen anyone deal as fast as he did ( I was sober too by the way!) Anyway I won the first hand, then experienced ten player hands in a row!
Quote: MelmanI have never ever seen a casino that did not grandfather players at the minimum in place when they began their play.
This includes every casino in Laughlin and non-Strip LV.
For what it's worth.
Interesting story from one trip to Caesar's Palace: i started playing at a $15 craps table, minimum was raised to $25 but I was grandfathered in at the old amount. A few-too-many free drinks later, I had to make a trip to the restroom, but I left my chips covered at the table. When I got back, I was told that I now had to play at $25. :)
Thats the sign to jump right in on the Don'ts side.Quote: PeteMDid not seem to be enjoying himself...
Quote: DocI don't think I understand the purpose of such a request, unless (1) it simultaneously increases the table maximum or (2) the player is being an ass and wants to run off the other players at the table.
Could you clarify?
You can do that in Vegas too. Floor supervisors will often suggest it to the player if he is betting much more than the minimum, like $100 at a $10 table. I wouldn't be that hard on a high roller asking for a private table, especially if there were plenty of other low-minimum tables. That is a perk they are accustomed to getting.
Quote: MelmanI have never ever seen a casino that did not grandfather players at the minimum in place when they began their play.
This includes every casino in Laughlin and non-Strip LV.
For what it's worth.
No Harrah's casinos have grandfathered for quite a while now.
Quote: toastcmuAtlantic City will not grandfather bets. They give you 20 mins notice that the minimum is changing, and then expect you to play the minimum once it changes. Typically table limits are raised between 12p-2p and again between 5p-7p on the weekends, starting Fridays.
The Casino Control Commission has not required the 20-minute notice for some time. If a casino is doing that, it is a courtesy. Ten-minute warnings seem to be fairly widespread.
Quote: SanchoPanzaNo Harrah's casinos have grandfathered for quite a while now.
I was grandfathered at Horseshoe Southern Indiana last week. Without discussing how much I gambled while I was "working" in Louisville, let's just say that it happened more than once:-)
Maybe the no-grandfathering is more of a LV/AC thing?
Quote: rdw4potusMaybe the no-grandfathering is more of a LV/AC thing?
Or Indiana. Possibly under the same corporate variance that allows changes in policies like minimum odds bets.
Quote: SanchoPanzaOr Indiana. Possibly under the same corporate variance that allows changes in policies like minimum odds bets.
More likely a legal matter. No grandfathering allowed in Missouri.
it's kinda like a home poker tournament where the buy in is $5 and everyone is playing everything, and usually the "good" players are getting beat
Quote: iamthepushi usually don't like playing with other people at low stakes tables when i'm beting far above the min.
Really? What's the difference?
In the Milwaukee casino during the week there will sometimes be three craps tables open, all with $5 minimums. I've seen players around the table buy in for anywhere from $40 to $700, everyone seemed to get along. Though I guess I don't know whether it bothered the higher-end players.
Quote: CalderReally? What's the difference?
In the Milwaukee casino during the week there will sometimes be three craps tables open, all with $5 minimums. I've seen players around the table buy in for anywhere from $40 to $700, everyone seemed to get along. Though I guess I don't know whether it bothered the higher-end players.
i'm talking about black jack tables. i've seen everything from doubling down on hard 13 vs face, to himing and hawing for 5 mins because they're not sure if they want to double down on 11 vs 6
Sat down at a $10 or $15 blackjack table with one other player at it, and began to play. After a while, they raised it to a $25 table, but told us we were grandfathered, not to worry about it. A few players came and went, losing all their money quickly (basically buying in for only $100 or $150, and hitting a bad streak), but the other player and I remained. After a few hours of this, the pit boss came back by, looked at the 2 of us sitting at a mostly empty table, while most of the others were full, and said, in essence, "This is silly...", and lowered the minimum back down to the level we were playing at.
So, yes, they do lower minimums, but not particularly often. :-)
