Question #3 Pai Gow Poker

The Wizards page on this game indicates in a table that the player faces a low 0.12% HE as banker after commission, but in text below it says that there is a player advantage when banking: "If the player were to use the Optimal single house way against the Trump Plaza house way then the house edge as the banker would be -0.19%"

so that confuses me, that it is 2 different figures. Anyone able to help?

Thanks for all the help that is being offered. You can possibly guess my next question.

edit: the link is https://wizardofodds.com/paigowpoker

Casinos set the house way in PGP differently. So against a certain house way, when acting as abanker you have the HE the Wizard calculated, using the strategy noted in the website.

Quote: Nareed

Casinos set the house way in PGP differently. So against a certain house way, when acting as abanker you have the HE the Wizard calculated, using the strategy noted in the website.

Links to various House Ways is shown, but no strategy is clearly indicated as superior I think? Unless the detailed strategy on two pair is what gets a player the edge over a House Way? I realize I may be missing something obvious, but otherwise I'm stumped.

Nareed -

There are proprietary startegies that are VERY superior - but they cannot be implimented by casinos;

Dealers cannot review a nine-page computer listing, or read a copy of Stanford Wong's "Optimal Strategy for Pai Gow Poker" or Dan Lubin's "Thinking in Pai Gow" in order to set a hand - while dealing the game in a production casino environment.

Casino's have to use a best compromise, usually a poor compromise. One of the best house way strategies that I have seen and evaluated is the Clarion's house way (Atlantic City), listed at the Wizard's Web site here.

But there is one better...

IF YOU WANT TO SEE A TREMENDOUS PAI GOW STRATEGY, VERIFIED BY THE GAMING MATHEMATICIAN CHARLES R. MOUSSEAU, CONSIDER THIS:

1. Pai Gow: Highest card in five card hand, 2nd and 3rd strongest on two card side.
2. One pair: Always play pair in five card side, with next two strongest cards up

3. Two pairs: when the two pair hand has a two-card top that is listed in the left column, perform the split or keep action to its right:
Top: Two Pair Split action to take
AK: split no two pairs with AK for the top, (not even Q’s with J’s.)
AQ: split King’s with 7’s or better only.
AJ: split K’s with 5’s or better, and Q’s with 7’s or better
A-x: split K’s w 3’s+, Q’s w 5’s+, J’s w 8’s+, 10 w 8’s+, keep all lower
KQ: split all two pair jacks and better, 10’s w 4’s+, 9’s w 5’s +, keep all lower
KJ: split all two pair jacks and better, split 10 w 3’s+, 9’s w 4’s+, 8’s w 5’s+
K-x: split all two pair 9’s and better, 8’s w 3’s+, 7’s w 5’s+, keep all lower
QJ-: split 7’s and better, and 6’s w 4’s or 5’s, keep all lower two pairs

4. Three pairs: always play the highest pair in two-card side

5. Three of a kind, simple (no flush or straight with it):
a. Three aces always split 2-and-1, as a pair of aces for the five-card side.
b. Three Kings always split 2-and-1 with a Jack or lower top; else keep together with any ace or a queen top.
c. All other three of a kinds (queens and less) never break up.
6. Two three of a kinds: split off a pair from the higher group for the top.

7. Straights and/or flushes:
a. Straight or Flush with two pairs: when the straight or flush has a two-card top that is listed in the left column, perform the action to its right:
Pair: Always play the straight or the flush if a pair can be played on top.
AK: keep all straights and flushes with AK top, ignore all two pairs
AQ: keep all straights and flushes with AQ top, ignore all two pairs
AJ: if straight only, split two pairs K’s with 8’s+ or Aces with 6’s+
A-x: split all two pairs King or Ace high, else play straight or flush
KQ: split all two pairs queen high+, else play straight or flush
KJ: split all two pairs jack-high+, or play two pairs with an ace top
K-x: split eight-high two pairs or play two pairs with ace up
Q-x-: split eight-high two pairs or play two pairs with King up (e.g.: Kd-9d-8d-5d-5c-4h-4d play as 5’s and 4’s with K-9 up, ignore flush w/ J top.)
b. Straight or flush with one pair: If Straight or Flush has a two-card side of:
K-x+: always play as straight or flush
QJ: play face card pair with ace-face up, else play Straight/Flush
Q10-: play face card pair with ace-face up or AAxxx/KQ up.
c. Straight with Flush: if you cannot produce a good hand with a), b) or c) above with either the straight or the flush, then play the one with the higher top. Except: if the tops are adjacent or essentially the same with both the straight and flush, then always play the stronger flush with essentially the same top. (“Same tops” are A-9 vs. A-6 [both ace-low], K-Q vs. K-J [both King-face], K-10 vs. K-5 [both King-low], adjacent ace-face [AQ vs. AJ, but not AK vs. AJ], or both tops are Q-10 or lower)

d. Straight or flush with three pairs: Automatic: Always play as a three pair.
e. Straight or flush with three of a kind: Automatic: always play as straight /flush with pair or ace up. (for example: Play 9888765 as 98765/88, and the hand AA*2459 play as A2*45/A9)
f. Straight or flush with full house:
i. Play as flush or straight if a pair 9’s/better can be put on top, else:
ii. Play Split-up full house if split full house has aces on top;
iii. Play as straight/flush if ace-king or pair can be played on top;
iv. Else treat as full house, as listed below in #9.
g. 6 or 7 card long straight or flush: play the straight/flush which gives the best two card side, unless straight and flush with Q- top, then play flush.

8. Straight flush or Royal Flush: Always (just) handle as straight or flush, above.

9. Full house:
a. If your full house’s pair is 6’s or less, and your hand has an AK (AQ with 5’s or less, AJ with 2’s), then keep the full house together, else split.
b. If you have a full house with an extra pair, then play the higher pair up;
c. Full house with straight for flush: Play as flush or straight with pair 9’s or better top; else Play Split-up full house if it has aces on top; else play as straight or flush if it has AK+ top; Else treat as full house “a.” above
d. If your full house consists of two three-of-a-kinds or a four-of-a-kind with a three of a kind, then split off a pair from the higher group, unless they are adjacent, so that the four of a kind can be played as the long side.

10. Four of a kind, with no pair or three of a kind with it:
Four Aces: always split into two pairs of aces.
Four Kings: split into two pairs only without an Ace – play as four of a kind Kings with AQ/AJ up; with ace-low (A-10 or less) play as a 3/1 split, as KKKxx/AK.
Four Queens: keep together with Ace-Jack or better top, but split into 3 Q’s and A-Q with an Ace-low top, else split into two pairs of Queens without holding an ace.
Jacks or 10’s: keep together with any Ace, else split into two pairs of Jacks/10’s.
9’s and 8’s: keep together with any King-jack or better top, else split.
7’s: keep together with a King or better top, else split.
6’s: keep together with a Queen or better top, else split.
5’s or less: always keep together.

11. Four or a kind - with a pair: Always play a four of a kind with a pair as an unsplit four of a kind down with the pair up on the two-card hand, Except: Four Aces or Kings with a pair of 3’s or 2’s, then split off a high pair from the four of a kind, to play two very strong pairs down with a very high pair up.

12. For four of a kind with a three of a kind, split off pair from the higher group for the top, unless the groups are adjacent, then keep the four of a kind together.

13. Five aces: Play with pair of aces in the two-card side. Ignore even a pair of Kings.


Can you imaginge a break-in dealer trying to set house hands to this??
First of all, players would run out, saying, "If I wanted to play against tournament players for $500 a hand, I'd go to the Bicycle club."

This is a mathematically verified house strategy used for optimal play, in a proposed casino product that was deemed "absurdedly strong" and "impossible to deal" for casino use, and for an electronic programmed version of commission-free Pai Gow poker using only a jack-high push mechanism to suppliment the house edge.

If you can memorize this house strategy, go to the Bicycle club and take money like if comes off trees.

To odious, if you wish to bank for some money, then try this stratgey playing at a Los Angeles BANKING card house house, and not at a casino.

But don't try banking thinking , "Method one gives me a 1.06375 factor, but the other way gives me a 1.06379 factor, so the this difference is signifigant - and will make me rich with my gambling money!! :)"

No...learn a very strong Pai Gow strategy to play Pai Gow very, very well, and then go to a BANKING CARD ROOM with some serious money and courage, - but please stay away from $10 casino Pai Gow tables saying, "I wanna bank here as much as I can...do you guys mind if I bank for $10? I'll get a 0.001 advantage from that." That's very different. That's poorly recieved.

Thank you! much appreciated.

I won't claim that the WoO site didnt explain that such outstanding strategies exist somewhere, but I will say the strategy page does not make this clear. Or I missed it *sigh*. I plan to use his simple strategy for what to do with two pair. He's right, quite easy to memorize.

Odious,

The Wizard's job here is to not post very strong proprietary Pai Gow stategies from - or for - aggressive card room Pai Gow players, or unknown proprietary strategies...as he works with very respectable, standard and wide-reaching casino operators, using the standard and basic casino strategies, policies and house ways that the vast majority of casino patrons and operators consider [not that he lacks access to these strategies]. But no, it wouldn't be posted at the odds site.

There is a very big difference between Michael Shackleford and Stanford Wong.

So this is all very different than card room advantage play strategies, be it for Pai Gow or blackjack or what not. For that matter, the Wiz also doesn't post card-counting advantage play methods for Blackjack, [like the old Blackjack Forum], nor does he post dice-setting methods for advantage play [like dicesetter.com], or casino cheating play stories like Richard Marcus et al [at www.richardmarcusbooks.com].

For all the House Way Pai Gow strategies that he lists from the casinos of Las Vegas and Atlantic City, he lists all the clean and standard stuff house ways strategies that are in use, and as he should. For the vast legions of regular players and casinos that make up the numbers.

Any Three-page Pai Gow monster house way strategy that advantage players could use, but that casinos or regular players wouldn't use, I assume he would not consider, and I assume he would not touch, as being a bit "blackjack forum"-like, and just out there. I posted it here because it is interesting and useful, and more appropriate here in a gambler's chat area. For that matter, I also assume he would not publish a 16-page Blackjack basic strategy sheet based on every card-rank played out from a deck, to get an additional 0.01% edge, as being both extreme and cut-throat, a la Edward O. Thorpe in his seminal book, "Beat the Dealer", either. Which you could buy from Amazon anyway. Mike works for casinos, as do I, and we generally don't release anything along those lines like Ed Thorpe, with titles of "Stomp the crap out of those casino house dealers," I mean, being gaming suppliers of casino houses in the first place, as our professional jobs. I didn't mean that here.

My strategy listed above was a little bit aggressive; if typical casino players played like that (and they do not!), we might have to charge a 7% commssion, or go to a King-high push for commission-free play. Maybe not, but it would cut it closer. As a Pai Gow dealer, sometimes I lose a hand to a tournament Pai Gow Player betting $500 a hand, when he sets 10's and 2's with a KQ up, and I lose with my pair of aces with a KJ up, for a $475 house loss than most other players would push with 10'2 and 2's split. It makes a difference.

However, that listed stratgey was a legitmately researched and advanced Pai Gow strategy that was preparing to go into an electronic game, as an honest electronic strategy for computer play against a player without charging a commission, using with a Queen-high or jack-high or less push, and without peeking at cards or doing anything illegal or nefarious, just playing really strong without charging a commission.

It was originally designed for Electronic slot Pai Gow Poker, like the console Blackjack you can play on Game King in most bars. You can't have fractional payouts on an electronic Pai Gow version through a commission. (you cannot have a 4.75 credit win on a nickel machine, etc), so that was how that strategy was originally developed - as a legitimate strong commission-free static strategy with a Pai Gow push qualifier, with a stronger strategy that a machine could remember and carry out, [but a casino dealer cannot], and on an electronic machine. It hasn't gone anywhere yet, but I did show it to DEQ. I think it has legs - I mean, If a Pai Gow player had $5 on him, he could play 20 hands at 25c on a commission-free machine instead of hitting a pit table, where he'd go nowhere after one hand in most cases.

It's an interesting strategy to use for Pai Gow tournament play, and I consider it innocent. But Real Strong.

This is the coolest thing I have seen in a long time.

I obviously can't memorize it, but I think I can memorize the two-pair section, which is the most important.

I can't tell you how many times I've kept together a full house, and gotten yelled at by the dealer and other players when I have an AK or AQ. Now I feel better about it.

Thanks Paigowdan!