EZ Pai Gow at Fiesta Henderson

I saw this commission-free Pai Gow Poker game at Fiesta Henderson. It is commission-free 100% of the time when not banking, and there are NO quarters in the table rack. Also, you are not required to make any bonus bets, and it uses almost the exact same bonus table. When the dealer gets a Queen-high Pai Gow hand, and only a Queen-high Pai Gow, he pushes the flat bet, and takes or pays the bonus bets. It really speeds the game up. What is the house edge on this?

Quote: clubflush

It really speeds the game up.

I know nothing about Pai Gow Poker but if it speeds up the game the house is generally in favor of it even if it lowers their edge a bit.

Here is my page on the fully wild version. I will try to add a page on the partially-wild version within a week or two, but the bottom line should be very similar.

Clubflush,
It's 1.7%, or almost the same as regular commission-based Pai Gow at 1.6%.
Believe it or not, I invented the game two years ago, and I originally used a different dealer qualification mechanism (jack-high and less dealer Pai Gow, instead of a Queen-only), but that required the use of a very strong two-page house way that NO commercial customer would want to use. The current Queen-high push method can be used with the casino's existing house way, providing it is not horribly bad. NOT taking commissions from every player win requires a bit of stability in the house way.

The Queen-high barred-hand hand occurs about once in every 58 hands for the dealer, at 1.764%, actually 2,719,500 Queen-high Pai Gows out of 154,143,080 total possible hands.

Paying a 5% commission 32% of the time (when the player wins) is 5% * 32% = 1.6%.

Add to this a "win-the-copies" factor for the house of about 0.9%, and the house edge is 2.6% for EZ Pai Gow, and 2.5% for regular Pai Gow Poker. Approximately the same on paper, but the table hold is a touch higher, because so many more hands get out per hour, not fumbling for commission change. Players like this, along with getting paid the full bet amount. Bet $100, and it's win $100, not no stinkin' 95 dollars!

Fiesta Henderson had let me track a month's worth of numbers when the game went live (like a mini field trial), because I am also a dealer there, and I had given the table to them for free (with DEQ's approval); it good a lot of action and the table hold was very fine. We didn't need an official field trial, because the change to the game was a modification to an already existing game, and we had a very good math report from a Canadian mathematician.

The table here in Henderson is the first EZ Pai Gow table in Nevada! We were in four other states before we brought it here. We wanted to make SURE the game wouldn't bomb before it went live here in NV. Funny thing, the first night it went live, a dealer I was training on the graveyard shift dealt some player Five aces (500:1 in my table), with a nickel up, and I nearly passed the hell out! We made it up the next day.

Anyway, Clubflush, thanks for checking it out!

Thanks for the info! Wow so it’s only .01% better house edge? Is that like 10 cents per 100$? I was thinking it was going to be much higher? That seems a very good trade off for how much easier and faster the game is? I played it again this weekend and had a great time. The dealer was really funny and told me he liked dealing this game over regular pai gow because it was so much easier and faster. Quote: "no more stupid quarters!" I had to agree.

Actually, clubflush, that is the case. It's a good trade-off.

This isn't a carnival game in a rip-off sense, it's just an alternate way to play Pai Gow, without the commission, with basically the same numbers.

A number of players look at the game and initially said something like, "Aha! There's GOTTA be a catch...I Know this new game's gotta a gimmick....yeah....that's the tickey...they're trying a new way to SHORT ME!" But that just the gambler mentality looking for someone who's trying to "game" someone else.

No one trying to rook anyone. It's just that house edge comes from a qualifying hand, and not from the 5% commission on every player win. Essentially, the commission is swapped out or exchanged with a qualifying hand at the same house edge.

The feedback I got is that, yeah, dealers like it, because they not calculating commissions and farting around with silver to pay a player! The game moves faster. This was important, because a BIG part of the success of a new game is having dealers like the game. If they like the game, they sell the game and get action.

Curious if a J, T or 9 high player pai gow will still result in a push vs the dealer's Q high... The simple variation to the game sounds like a great idea & I would be more likely to play the EZ version if given the choice.

Nope, Its only the Q high that pushes. And the side bets still pay if the dealer does get the Q high. Also, if you get a ten high or any losing hand, it pushes on the dealers queen high. It does not happen that offten though. I played it for over two hours this weekend and never saw the Q high in the dealers hand.

Lucy,
If you mean that a PLAYER's losing Jack-high, or less will lose against the DEALER's Q-high, then no - it ALSO pushes instead of losing, too.

The DEALER's Queen-high pushes ALL flat bets, but the bonus bets are always alive.

The DEALER's jack-high or less is always active, and would certainly lose against players' wins.

Let me see if I have this right...

(Ignoring any side bets for the moment)

Players get their cards, and set their hands. Then the dealer turns over their hand. If it's exactly a Queen high, all bets push, all cards are picked up, and the next hand is dealt.

That's it? If the dealer has ANYTHING else, even a Jack high, the action proceeds normally?

It sounds too frickin' simple. Or EZ :)

I can certainly see why people ask "What's the catch?"

So I'm gonna ask specifics. Yeah, trying to find the 'catch'.

What about player banking? How does the house make money? (I suspect that player banking is not allowed, which would follow the 'EZ' line of thinking).

If the dealer has the Queen high push hand, are the player's hands examined at all ? I.E. Does the player still push if he fouled his hand?

What about those players who, when dealt garbage, don't even bother to set their hand? Does such a surrender lose or push to the Queen high? Personally, I suspect that the player can simply say they want their hand played 'house way' to not surrender to the push. But I would also think that asking to play 'house way' is something that must be done before the dealer turns their cards over. Don't ask me why, but it pisses me off when people surrender, so I'd prefer that they still lose. Call me a dick if you must...

DJ -

1. Close....
If a dealer has a Queen-high hand, and ONLY a Queen-high hand, the players' MAIN bets push, and the dealer examines the players hands - to take and pay the bonus and insurance bets.
BONUS BETS are ALWAYS ACTIVE.

2. On banking:
Commission returns on player banking.
Banker pays 5% up to the nearest dollar.
Players never pay commission against banker or dealer.
Banker CANNOT use Queen high Pai Gow to push players' or dealer's hand.
Dealer queen-high pushes Banker's hand.

We are trying to discourage banking, it's nothing but a hinderance in the game - or any game. (Can you bank in blackjack or Roulette??) Since players are wagering against one another, the house has to charge a rake for its time.

I think one outfit using EZ Pai Gow simply declared, "No banking...if you wanna bank, go walk to the poker room.."

3. If a player discard his hand before the dealer shows his, then the dealer takes the bonus bets as losers (as player folded his hand, indicating that), and pushes the main bet.

Quote: Paigowdan

DJ -

1. Close....
BONUS BETS are ALWAYS ACTIVE.

You missed one part of my post:

Quote: DJTeddyBear

(Ignoring any side bets for the moment)

We're on the same page, except for one question. Would the player still push when a dealer has Queen-high, even if the player fouled his hand?

I know it's a stupid question. The chance of someone fouling their hand is next to zero, the chance of a foul at the same times as the queen push is even less, but that's how my mind works. Stupid or not, I try to think of all possibilities.

DJ -
It is important to account for EVERY SCENARIO with a new game, or with a live game.

But you know, I never came across a fouled hand during a queen-high push at the Fiesta.
I would assume the push overrides, and the player catches a break with a warning.

Quote: Paigowdan

DJ -
It is important to account for EVERY SCENARIO with a new game, or with a live game.

But you know, I never came across a fouled hand during a queen-high push at the Fiesta.
I would assume the push overrides, and the player catches a break with a warning.

a fouled hand is one where the two card front hand is a higher hand than the back hand ?

Quote: odiousgambit

a fouled hand is one where the two card front hand is a higher hand than the back hand ?

Yes, or you accidently put 3 cards in the front hand. I did that once when the cards were sticking together. I've also put my 5 card hand up front. The floor was called both times, and they set my hand the house way.

Quote: clubflush

I saw this commission-free Pai Gow Poker game at Fiesta Henderson.

Is it the same game as Fortune Pai Gow Poker which is now a Table Game that is also a 200,000 progressive between two Stations properties for a straight of some sort?

Quote: Paigowdan

DJ -

3. If a player discard his hand before the dealer shows his, then the dealer takes the bonus bets as losers (as player folded his hand, indicating that), and pushes the main bet.

If a player does this on any pai gow table he is an idiot. Dealers periodically get straights or flushes and have to play 2 low cards up top. Also, your dismal q high pai gow can beat the dealers j high. I have never seen a player discard his hand before the dealer shows his. Dan- as a dealer, would you counsel a player who is discarding his hand not to do so, assuming you have seen someone do that?

By the way, at the Rio someone was discussing your game at the next table and their impression was that it was a much better game than the commission version. I helped them with the math and explained why a house would do it, and they seemed to understand. They would preferentially play your game to regular pai gow.