clubflush
clubflush
Joined: May 23, 2010
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 21
May 23rd, 2010 at 3:03:41 AM permalink
I saw this commission-free Pai Gow Poker game at Fiesta Henderson. It is commission-free 100% of the time when not banking, and there are NO quarters in the table rack. Also, you are not required to make any bonus bets, and it uses almost the exact same bonus table. When the dealer gets a Queen-high Pai Gow hand, and only a Queen-high Pai Gow, he pushes the flat bet, and takes or pays the bonus bets. It really speeds the game up. What is the house edge on this?
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
May 23rd, 2010 at 5:51:30 AM permalink
Quote: clubflush

It really speeds the game up.

I know nothing about Pai Gow Poker but if it speeds up the game the house is generally in favor of it even if it lowers their edge a bit.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1344
  • Posts: 22245
May 23rd, 2010 at 6:12:15 AM permalink
Here is my page on the fully wild version. I will try to add a page on the partially-wild version within a week or two, but the bottom line should be very similar.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
May 23rd, 2010 at 7:28:48 AM permalink
Clubflush,
It's 1.7%, or almost the same as regular commission-based Pai Gow at 1.6%.
Believe it or not, I invented the game two years ago, and I originally used a different dealer qualification mechanism (jack-high and less dealer Pai Gow, instead of a Queen-only), but that required the use of a very strong two-page house way that NO commercial customer would want to use. The current Queen-high push method can be used with the casino's existing house way, providing it is not horribly bad. NOT taking commissions from every player win requires a bit of stability in the house way.

The Queen-high barred-hand hand occurs about once in every 58 hands for the dealer, at 1.764%, actually 2,719,500 Queen-high Pai Gows out of 154,143,080 total possible hands.

Paying a 5% commission 32% of the time (when the player wins) is 5% * 32% = 1.6%.

Add to this a "win-the-copies" factor for the house of about 0.9%, and the house edge is 2.6% for EZ Pai Gow, and 2.5% for regular Pai Gow Poker. Approximately the same on paper, but the table hold is a touch higher, because so many more hands get out per hour, not fumbling for commission change. Players like this, along with getting paid the full bet amount. Bet $100, and it's win $100, not no stinkin' 95 dollars!

Fiesta Henderson had let me track a month's worth of numbers when the game went live (like a mini field trial), because I am also a dealer there, and I had given the table to them for free (with DEQ's approval); it good a lot of action and the table hold was very fine. We didn't need an official field trial, because the change to the game was a modification to an already existing game, and we had a very good math report from a Canadian mathematician.

The table here in Henderson is the first EZ Pai Gow table in Nevada! We were in four other states before we brought it here. We wanted to make SURE the game wouldn't bomb before it went live here in NV. Funny thing, the first night it went live, a dealer I was training on the graveyard shift dealt some player Five aces (500:1 in my table), with a nickel up, and I nearly passed the hell out! We made it up the next day.

Anyway, Clubflush, thanks for checking it out!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
clubflush
clubflush
Joined: May 23, 2010
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 21
May 25th, 2010 at 4:10:46 PM permalink
Thanks for the info! Wow so it痴 only .01% better house edge? Is that like 10 cents per 100$? I was thinking it was going to be much higher? That seems a very good trade off for how much easier and faster the game is? I played it again this weekend and had a great time. The dealer was really funny and told me he liked dealing this game over regular pai gow because it was so much easier and faster. Quote: "no more stupid quarters!" I had to agree.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
May 25th, 2010 at 4:27:13 PM permalink
Actually, clubflush, that is the case. It's a good trade-off.

This isn't a carnival game in a rip-off sense, it's just an alternate way to play Pai Gow, without the commission, with basically the same numbers.

A number of players look at the game and initially said something like, "Aha! There's GOTTA be a catch...I Know this new game's gotta a gimmick....yeah....that's the tickey...they're trying a new way to SHORT ME!" But that just the gambler mentality looking for someone who's trying to "game" someone else.

No one trying to rook anyone. It's just that house edge comes from a qualifying hand, and not from the 5% commission on every player win. Essentially, the commission is swapped out or exchanged with a qualifying hand at the same house edge.

The feedback I got is that, yeah, dealers like it, because they not calculating commissions and farting around with silver to pay a player! The game moves faster. This was important, because a BIG part of the success of a new game is having dealers like the game. If they like the game, they sell the game and get action.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Lucyjr
Lucyjr
Joined: May 25, 2010
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 32
May 25th, 2010 at 4:49:07 PM permalink
Curious if a J, T or 9 high player pai gow will still result in a push vs the dealer's Q high... The simple variation to the game sounds like a great idea & I would be more likely to play the EZ version if given the choice.
clubflush
clubflush
Joined: May 23, 2010
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 21
May 25th, 2010 at 5:11:45 PM permalink
Nope, Its only the Q high that pushes. And the side bets still pay if the dealer does get the Q high. Also, if you get a ten high or any losing hand, it pushes on the dealers queen high. It does not happen that offten though. I played it for over two hours this weekend and never saw the Q high in the dealers hand.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
May 25th, 2010 at 5:42:17 PM permalink
Lucy,
If you mean that a PLAYER's losing Jack-high, or less will lose against the DEALER's Q-high, then no - it ALSO pushes instead of losing, too.

The DEALER's Queen-high pushes ALL flat bets, but the bonus bets are always alive.

The DEALER's jack-high or less is always active, and would certainly lose against players' wins.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 178
  • Posts: 10266
May 26th, 2010 at 6:14:53 AM permalink
Let me see if I have this right...

(Ignoring any side bets for the moment)

Players get their cards, and set their hands. Then the dealer turns over their hand. If it's exactly a Queen high, all bets push, all cards are picked up, and the next hand is dealt.

That's it? If the dealer has ANYTHING else, even a Jack high, the action proceeds normally?

It sounds too frickin' simple. Or EZ :)

I can certainly see why people ask "What's the catch?"

So I'm gonna ask specifics. Yeah, trying to find the 'catch'.

What about player banking? How does the house make money? (I suspect that player banking is not allowed, which would follow the 'EZ' line of thinking).

If the dealer has the Queen high push hand, are the player's hands examined at all ? I.E. Does the player still push if he fouled his hand?

What about those players who, when dealt garbage, don't even bother to set their hand? Does such a surrender lose or push to the Queen high? Personally, I suspect that the player can simply say they want their hand played 'house way' to not surrender to the push. But I would also think that asking to play 'house way' is something that must be done before the dealer turns their cards over. Don't ask me why, but it pisses me off when people surrender, so I'd prefer that they still lose. Call me a dick if you must...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

  • Jump to: