Commission free Pai Gow Poker-where is it besides Golden Nugget

Hello all,
The latest gambling game I have been playing is Pai Gow Poker.
I started learning this game once JB's strategy was put up on the Wiz's odds site.
Its a real fun game because sometimes you have to do some thinking before setting your 2 hands.
I actually play with a small piece of paper with an abbreviated version of JB's strategy.
Thanks JB
Just got back from Vegas and played a ton of PGP in various casinos.
My last day I stopped by the Golden Nugget and discovered commission free PGP. Minimum bet was only 10 bucks but it was midweek morning, that may go up later in the day. Casino still has an edge by winning ties and a healthy advantage on the side bets.
Are there any other casinos out there that have commission free PGP?
Also how about cheap PGP. Binions sometimes has a 5 minimum in the morning.
I also like the 1 buck fortune side bet. Commission free Golden Nugget has the minimum 1 buck fortune bet, CET with 5% comm, also has a fortune bet but the min is 5 bucks which I think sucks.

Quote: terapined

My last day I stopped by the Golden Nugget and discovered commission free PGP. Minimum bet was only 10 bucks but it was midweek morning, that may go up later in the day. Casino still has an edge by winning ties and a healthy advantage on the side bets.

Was this EZ Pai Gow? If so, 1) Our own esteemed Paigowdan invented it, 2) I thought the edge lay on a push when the house has a Queen-high PG, 3) you can find it at least at the Fiesta Henderson, and 4) Dan will surely know to the last table where else it is to be found.

You are talking about the game invented by our forum member, PaiGowDan. The rule that keeps the house edge similar to regular pai gow poker is that if the dealer has a queen high pai gow hand, it is an automatic draw. It has the advantage that the dealer isn't using quarters. It has the disadvantage in that most places do not allow player banking.

I recently played pai gow poker at Viejas Casino in San Diego. The rules were a lot different then any game I had ever played. I'm wondering if paigowdan invented this as well since it was no commission.

Jokers are used as any wild. Not just to complete a flush or a straight. So if you have 3 nines and a joker, now you have 4 nines.
When the dealer had anything lower than ace high pai gow ( king high, queen high, etc..) then you only won half your bet. So if you bet $50 on the hand and you win against a 9 high pai gow then you're only paid $25.

Fortune bonus did not have a 3 of a kind payout and 4 of a kind only paid 10-1. However if you won a fortune bonus when the dealer had a king high pai gow or lower, then your winnings doubled. So for example you bet $10 on fortune bonus. You hit a flush at 4 - 1 so you're paid $40. Well if dealer has a J high pai gow you're paid $80.

I hated this game terribly. Dan was this your creation?

Just a nitpick here, but the version at the Golden Nugget on Fremont isn't EZ Paigow. It's some other no-commission variant where it pushes on low-hand 9-high, rather than high-hand queen-high. Unfortunately, I didn't see what happens if the high-hand has something and the low hand is just a 9-high. Also, according to the table literature at the time, banking WAS allowed. There was some dispute over that, and the floor manager removed the literature as a result.

Other than that, it's pretty much the same.

Quote: Beardgoat

I recently played pai gow poker at Viejas Casino in San Diego. The rules were a lot different then any game I had ever played. I'm wondering if paigowdan invented this as well since it was no commission.

...Well, those payouts sound weird. O_o

Quote: terapined

Are there any other casinos out there that have commission free PGP?

No idea where your home territory is, but Pala in the Temecula, SoCal region has it.

It's commission-free in most casinos in Washington State too. No rule changes like EZ or any other pushes, it's just commission-free. The house edge is lower as a result but it's not player-favorable the way baccarat would be if it were played with no commission.

Quote: MathExtremist

It's commission-free in most casinos in Washington State too. No rule changes like EZ or any other pushes, it's just commission-free. The house edge is lower as a result but it's not player-favorable the way baccarat would be if it were played with no commission.

Do they still allow banking?

Quote: Venthus

Just a nitpick here, but the version at the Golden Nugget on Fremont isn't EZ Paigow. It's some other no-commission variant where it pushes on low-hand 9-high, rather than high-hand queen-high.

I'm willing to take your word for it. I thougt it was EZ PG becasue I recall seeing it at the GN in 2012. I don't think I looked for it in 2013.

Quote: Venthus

Do they still allow banking?

The rules do, but only every other hand. Specific casinos' rules may vary.

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/activities/game-rules/pai-gow-poker.pdf

Quote: Venthus

Just a nitpick here, but the version at the Golden Nugget on Fremont isn't EZ Paigow. It's some other no-commission variant where it pushes on low-hand 9-high, rather than high-hand queen-high.

This sounds like Bally/SHFL version of Commission Free PGP. GN definitely used to have EZ PGP, wonder when they switched or added the Bally/SHFL version?

Also Beargoat, any PGP version with Fortune Bonus in it also sounds like a Bally/SHFL version, although I have not seen that version before.

Ah. The Nugget isn't one of my usual haunts. I was basing it on what I saw about a month ago. They may have has an EZ-PGP somewhere, but it'd be weird to have two different no-commission variants at the same place.

Quote: MathExtremist

It's commission-free in most casinos in Washington State too. No rule changes like EZ or any other pushes, it's just commission-free. The house edge is lower as a result but it's not player-favorable the way baccarat would be if it were played with no commission.

In my experience, this is only the case if you are playing a side bet. I have been at a couple tables in WA where I was the only one not playing one of the side bets, and they would take a 5% commission on my wins but nobody else's. I don't recall if it was a specific side bet that was required as I don't really pay much attention to them.

Now, I have heard that some card rooms don't have this requirement; as you state, the house still has an edge even without the commission (it's just lower). But I have not experienced it.

Obviously it would take a bit of math to figure out whether playing the side bet is warranted in that situation. I don't play PGP much, but I'll try to collect all of the relevant details if I'm in that situation again.

Some casinos in WA state waive the commission all the time, while some casinos waive the commission if you bet envy requirement on the bonus, while some casinos use EZ Pai Gow.

Out of these 3 versions
PGP w/5% commission
EZ PGP
PGP Golden nugget version

which version has lowest casino edge and what is that edge?
Where in Vegas is EZ PGP?

I am in Tampa, what is closest comm free PGP or cheap, I'm a 10 dollar bettor. Here in Tampa, I play the Seminole hard rock, 5 % comm, sometimes 10 minimum, most of the time 20 minimum. I'm a 10 dollar player so I only play when they have a low minimum. They have the 1 dollar fortune which I like. I hate places with the 5 min fortune such as CET properties. At Boyd, they have that electronic machine for the player. Player gives dealer money, dealer loads money into machine, you then press buttons making a variety of different fortune bets.


Also, what do you think of this strategy,
according to JB on the wiz odds site
9 or 10 points: play the Two Pair with King-high or better, otherwise split the pairs
so I got a pair of 55 and 44 with junk such as 2 8 10
so I split.
this was at the downtown 4 Queens last weekend
The dealer pointed to the 4Q house way card and said this is the best way and dismissed my JB strategy with a hand wave
4Q house way is Any two pair 6's or under - never split
The 1st time I saw this, I thought the dealer made a mistake. Its nice the 4Q has the house way right there on a card I can take and see. My local casino, Seminole Hard Rock Tampa wont give me a printed copy of their house way. It does have the dice to determine the deal which I think is classier then those machines.

Looking at the WoO pages...

PGP w/5% commission - 2.7212%, after commission.
EZ PGP - 2.47%
PGP Golden nugget version - 2.5096%
Evidently, it's just called 'Commission Free Pai Gow Poker'.

Of course, it also depends on whether or not you're playing optimal and what exactly the houseway rules are.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/
https://wizardofodds.com/games/ez-pai-gow-poker/partially-wild-joker/
https://wizardofodds.com/games/commission-free-pai-gow-poker/

There is a PGP version here in Arizona, at Casino Arizona specifically. I believe it is Dans game. When dealer has queen high pai gow then all hands push. There is a fortune bonus and a separate progressive bonus bet. They removed all regular pai gow games with commission.

The other tribe gila river casinos has a commission game with a fortune side bet and a separate progressive side bet. It is currently at like $400k... Gila River does not offer dans game, but has a "tiger 9" variant that pushes all hands when the dealers top is 9 high. This game also has a fortune bonus and a separate progressive bonus

Are you sure Dan's EZ PGP is offered with the "Fortune" bonus bet? DEQ has a very similar bet called the Dynasty Bonus and as they distribute EZ PGP, it would surprise me to find a "Fortune" Bonus on and EZ PGP table.

The Tiger 9 & Fortune Bonus bet together make sense.....they are both Bally/SHFL additions to PGP and used on their new Commission Free PGP game displayed at G2E in 2013.

You're right, I believe dans game is dynasty bonus. Thanks for the correction

Quote: terapined

My local casino, Seminole Hard Rock Tampa wont give me a printed copy of their house way. It does have the dice to determine the deal which I think is classier then those machines.

Seminole Hard Rock -Fort Liquordale (Hollywood, FL) seems to have the same Pai Gow Poker rules as in Tampa. I'm told the house way is set forth on the reverse side of the plastic table notice.

I was at both ten and twenty dollar tables and was playing a Fortune Bonus of Five Dollars even though I'm told the minimum for the Bonus was actually One Dollar.

At Hollywood Hard Rock, three dice in a metal dice cup holder was used to randomize the sequence of dealing.

Banking was allowed but didn't seem to be practiced much.

Derby Lane, St Petersburg FL
Has the best pai gow game in the country
No commission pai gow poker
Just regular Pai Gow poker. No adjustment of the rules like EZ Pai Gow. Just standard Pai Gow

House edge just on ties

5 buck min
5k max bet
Put 30k on the table and you can bank

I played a few days ago.
I think they are running it with a tiny profit with their tiny edge hoping FL will eventually allow fortune bet where they can then make some decent coin since its a terrible bet. Right now , no fortune bet allowed.

Quote: terapined

Derby Lane, St Petersburg FL
Has the best pai gow game in the country
No commission pai gow poker
Just regular Pai Gow poker. No adjustment of the rules like EZ Pai Gow. Just standard Pai Gow

House edge just on ties

5 buck min
5k max bet
Put 30k on the table and you can bank

I played a few days ago.
I think they are running it with a tiny profit with their tiny edge hoping FL will eventually allow fortune bet where they can then make some decent coin since its a terrible bet. Right now , no fortune bet allowed.

Thanks for letting me know. I should make a page for the game on WoO.

When I was at the Venetian I preached doing this, at least on a promotional basis, for a higher minimum many times. May as well have been talking to a brick wall.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for letting me know. I should make a page for the game on WoO.

When I was at the Venetian I preached doing this, at least on a promotional basis, for a higher minimum many times. May as well have been talking to a brick wall.

Another option for the Venetian is what some of us in WA do: waive commission if you bet $5 on the bonus. Venetian could require $5 on both Fortune and Progressive if they wanted.