Baccarat Master or Interesting Fantasy?

Late last night I went to the casino with my friend to play Baccarat. She didn't play, she walked around and watched while I played for a little over an hour! It was fun! I'm so hooked! I ended up risking $400, the most I've risked yet, but it's okay, I can afford it. The good thing is I came out ahead about $50 (minus the Banker percentages I had to pay at the end). I guess I won't become rich playing Baccarat, but anyway this is not what I want to talk about.

I sat next to an old Asian man, I'm pretty sure he was Chinese. He was very quiet and had a nice stack of chips in front of him. I had bet different from him a couple of times before and he didn't say anything, but at one point he placed a bet on the Banker and I placed a bet on Player, he smiled and turned to me slowly asking me if I was really going to bet against him. He seemed incredibly confident and this made me a little uncomfortable, I wasn't betting AGAINST him? I was just playing the game. Anyway, I asked him if I was making a mistake. He said yes. And the croupier announced that there would be no more bets. He was right, Banker won that hand.

At this point (if I remember correctly) he said Baccarat has a deep mathematical structure that shouldn't be ignored. I didn't say anything and he clarified that there's a deep mathematical pattern that needs to be recognized and understood, and the more I play, the better I will see it and understand it, but that I had to pay attention. I told him I had been paying attention, but the truth is I'm not sure what to look for as far as pattern and I was talking to my friend between hands every now and then so I suppose I wasn't paying full attention.

He told me not be distracted while in the presence of Baccarat (something like that) and told me not to be a gambler. I asked him what he meant by that though I kind of understood. He said gamblers depend too much on luck, that I should be more informed than that and not be a gambler.

He continued with something like this ... "You lose when you don't pay attention, then blame it on bad luck. Watch the shoe unfold like a flower" He pointed to the screen. He was sooo cute!! Like an old martial arts master from a movie or something!

I've studied meditation and yoga for a long time, so what I usually do is quiet my spirit for a moment before making a decision as to where to go with my bet. I allow my intuition to help me make decisions. I'm fairly new to Baccarat (few months) and I think there may be something to this method if you want to call it that. But I don't know much about this mathematical structure and about recognizing patterns, etc. I recently ordered a couple of books so I can study the game further.

I have questions

Are there any recommended instruction or teachers of Baccarat out there other than the fishy stuff I've seen on youtube?

Is all this silly nonsense? Am I faling into some kind of mystical Baccarat trap? If so I may not mind, does it make a difference either way? I amy as well try something different, right?

PLEASE don't be mean, I've been reading other threads on here and I kind of know what you guys think, but because of my meditation and yoga background, I think maybe there MIGHT be a different approach.

I don't know.

I LOVE this game though! LOVE IT!

Baccarat has no pattern. It's essentially a 50/50 shot with a slight edge going to banker even with the commission. The easiest way to realize there is no actual pattern is that if there was, don't you think this guy would be playing $10,000 a hand instead.

Quote: AnabelleT

Is all this silly nonsense?

Yes.

Quote: AnabelleT

Are there any recommended instruction or teachers of Baccarat out there other than the fishy stuff I've seen on youtube?

Member gr8player would be your best bet. He's here often. Your post almost made me think you were talking about him, so he might be what you're looking for.

Keep your mind, and your eyes, open.

Quote: gpac1377

Yes.

Hello gpac1377, I trust all is well with you.

You seem to be a little quick on the trigger today. Patterns can be found in random events.

As always, I wish you the best.

Mystical metaphysical yoga trap? Heck all you have to do to make money at Baccarat is guess correctly .... for any reason you want, including Yoga.

If you win,,, you can keep the money they give you even if your reasons for placing that bet were absolutely ridiculous.

Instructions? Well, often the players know the rules better than the dealer, but what's to learn???
You got three choices. Player, Banker and Tie. Tie is a sucker bet. That leaves Player and Banker. Player is a smidgen less likely to hit but pas 20:20, whereas Banker is a smidgen more likely to hit which is why it only pays 19:20. (Well, Banker is actually paid out at 20:20 but as you get up to leave they wrestle you to the ground for those accumulated one dollar "commissions" that they have been tracking).

Quote: treetopbuddy

Hello gpac1377, I trust all is well with you.

You seem to be a little quick on the trigger today. Patterns can be found in random events.

As always, I wish you the best.

Treetop, I can't type when you make me laugh :(

gr8player is our most prominent member who claims to beat the game without employing conventionally recognized advantage-play techniques. He plays part-time in Atlantic City, and has lately been posting weekly trip reports with results. But he only explains his system to a point.

soxfan posted in your other thread, but he doesn't disclose a lot of specifics, which I guess is understandable if he truly wins regularly and decisively.

varmenti posted in detail, but his system was laughable, IMO.

Bottom line, any claim that's contradicted by proven math will be doubted.

Quote: gpac1377

soxfan posted in your other thread, but he doesn't disclose a lot of specifics, which I guess is understandable if he truly wins regularly and decisively.

No doubt soxfan is one shrewd cat. He has given us very little insight into his play. From what I'm able to glean, he's using a negative progression and is willing to go very deep into his progression. He will not share method of bet selection which is very frustrating for me……kidding, kidding, kidding:-) :-) :-)

Quote: treetopbuddy

No doubt soxfan is one shrewd cat. He has given us very little insight into his play. From what I'm able to glean, he's using a negative progression and is willing to go very deep into his progression.

Thanks. Yes, soxfan's losses apparently are rare but substantial.

gr8player says he maxes out at 5 units, so he keeps his risk under control.

One possible hazard that treetop and I have noticed is that if you read enough of their posts, you subconsciously pick up their mannerisms, hey hey. Stay well.

Quote: AnabelleT

PLEASE don't be mean

I was thinking about it.

Well, OK.

How did you ever pick Baccarat? I thought maybe your friend introduced you, but it sounds like *you* dragged *her* to the casino, since she didnt play! Edit: never mind how you got started, I saw your other thread.

This Asian guy seems to believe a lot of things people believe from the Orient. These beliefs about Fate and Karma and such are ancient and not scientifically derived. But as you will be able to tell from some of the answers you are getting, some of the nonsense is American and home-grown. One thing you will be able to count on for sure is that the Secrets they know will be mysterious and unfathomable. No one will actually say "when this pattern happens, the Banker is favored" or whatever. You will always be "Grasshopper" who maybe will learn if she can peer through the mists and become Enlightened.

You have come to a site that promotes a more scientific approach, however, the forum itself allows free speech and people who post here can be as full of it as that Asian guy.

I suggest going to Wizaordoffodds.com and checking out FAQs etc there. There is a page on Baccarat too. It is run by the same Wizard as here, but no forum.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/baccarat/

A bunch of questions answered here

https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/baccarat/

Anabelle,

In all seriousness; baccarat is random. There is no skill, no decision point; the cards do just unfold. The rules are set, but as suggested in your other thread, the best thing you can do is learn the draw rules cold, because the dealers sometimes make errors, and you should be able to recognize after the first 4 cards whether the player has to take one, and after the 4-5 cards if necessary, whether the dealer has to take one. Mathematically, there are no secrets, and every bet independently has at least a little edge for the house, so there is no pattern, progression, or system that will guarantee you a win in the long run. But anything can happen in the short run, and if you enjoy buying into the Asian's wa, then go right ahead and play with him, especially if he's winning. For all you know, he has some great ESP and can "see" the next cards, and that's just how he explains it. Very unlikely, but as good a reason to bet one or the other as any....lol.

It is a heavily favored game by Asians everywhere, and they tend to play as a group; all banker, all player. So you'll be pressured to play "with" people like you were this time. In my experience, a game like that is more fun when you're winning or losing as a group, but it's your money, and you have the absolute right to play it as you want to, with the group or against it; just be prepared for social blowback if you go against the table. And as long as you're enjoying yourself, that's what matters in my book.

I hope to be a baccarat master someday when I get old, so I can grow a beard and stroke it as I place the table minimum while sipping on some green tea. Also maybe yelling at some kids to get off my baccarat table just like I would on my lawn.

Quote: AnabelleT

I LOVE this game though! LOVE IT!

You need to decide, do you want to play baccarats for the enjoyment of the game or do you intend to make the game a means for a part, or fulltime income, hey hey.

The wise old Chinese gambler, he shows up on
every gambling forum. They're mostly full of crap,
just like this one is. The shoe doesn't unfold like
a flower, what rubbish. It unfolds like what it
is, a series of unconnected random events. There
is no deep mathematical meaning, there is no
meaning at all. That's rather the point of it.

Trying to get meaning from random events is
like trying to catch butterflies when you're
drunk. You work and work and get nowhere.
Bac players follow trends and what they perceive
to be patterns, that's it, that's all. Don't read
anymore into it. I can tell you what they'll bet
on before they even know because I know how
they think.

Quote: treetopbuddy

Hello gpac1377, I trust all is well with you. You seem to be a little quick on the trigger today. Patterns can be found in random events.
As always, I wish you the best.

LMAO!

Yea I guess Bac has been a bit quiet for a few days. There is nothing Nothing like a new FEMALE Bac player who needs guidance and wonders if there is something more to the mystics of the game. Yoga, zen, zone

Quote: Face

Member gr8player would be your best bet. He's here often. Your post almost made me think you were talking about him, so he might be what you're looking for.

Keep your mind, and your eyes, open.

(Sidenote: I will address the OP in due time, but I felt this had to precede all. Kindly pardon my indulgence.)

Hello, Face. I trust all is well with you.

I believe this may well be our first interaction, but I feel compelled to respond to your post. I am not only flattered by your reference, I am astonished.

I've had discourse with another admin of this esteemed site that, shall I say, did not go nearly as well.

And I point this out for a reason:

Mine is not the most popular of concepts regarding Baccarat (or gaming, in general) in this forum. Suffice to say that my stated theories are relegated as virtually useless to the majority of our members. I get that, and I'm fine with it. As long as there exists some sort of "mutual respect" for each other's beliefs, I can deal with most members' commentaries, even those that are derogatory or divisive in nature.

But the respect that you've shown in your referenced post, to me, is so truly satisfying. I could never fully express what it truly means for me, and could never thank you enough for it.

It is not an endorsement, and I dare not take it as such.

But, my friend, it surely IS a show of respect.

And, please know, I can ask for nothing more from anyone on this site, let alone any admin.

Kuddos, Face, on your obvious strength of character. You are truly an asset to this forum.

Annabelle, ignore these fools, There is indeed a way to win at baccarat. Even the Wizard can not deny this. At age 27 and being a dance instructer, you may well have the necessary qualifications.

The system is quite easy to learn. I have posted a thread that will explain everything !

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/16432-did-you-send-juiciejennie-a-pm/28/

Quote: AnabelleT

Late last night I went to the casino with my friend to play Baccarat. She didn't play, she walked around and watched while I played for a little over an hour! It was fun! I'm so hooked! I ended up risking $400, the most I've risked yet, but it's okay, I can afford it. The good thing is I came out ahead about $50 (minus the Banker percentages I had to pay at the end). I guess I won't become rich playing Baccarat, but anyway this is not what I want to talk about.

I sat next to an old Asian man, I'm pretty sure he was Chinese. He was very quiet and had a nice stack of chips in front of him. I had bet different from him a couple of times before and he didn't say anything, but at one point he placed a bet on the Banker and I placed a bet on Player, he smiled and turned to me slowly asking me if I was really going to bet against him. He seemed incredibly confident and this made me a little uncomfortable, I wasn't betting AGAINST him? I was just playing the game. Anyway, I asked him if I was making a mistake. He said yes. And the croupier announced that there would be no more bets. He was right, Banker won that hand.

At this point (if I remember correctly) he said Baccarat has a deep mathematical structure that shouldn't be ignored. I didn't say anything and he clarified that there's a deep mathematical pattern that needs to be recognized and understood, and the more I play, the better I will see it and understand it, but that I had to pay attention. I told him I had been paying attention, but the truth is I'm not sure what to look for as far as pattern and I was talking to my friend between hands every now and then so I suppose I wasn't paying full attention.

He told me not be distracted while in the presence of Baccarat (something like that) and told me not to be a gambler. I asked him what he meant by that though I kind of understood. He said gamblers depend too much on luck, that I should be more informed than that and not be a gambler.

He continued with something like this ... "You lose when you don't pay attention, then blame it on bad luck. Watch the shoe unfold like a flower" He pointed to the screen. He was sooo cute!! Like an old martial arts master from a movie or something!

I've studied meditation and yoga for a long time, so what I usually do is quiet my spirit for a moment before making a decision as to where to go with my bet. I allow my intuition to help me make decisions. I'm fairly new to Baccarat (few months) and I think there may be something to this method if you want to call it that. But I don't know much about this mathematical structure and about recognizing patterns, etc. I recently ordered a couple of books so I can study the game further.

I have questions

Are there any recommended instruction or teachers of Baccarat out there other than the fishy stuff I've seen on youtube?

Is all this silly nonsense? Am I faling into some kind of mystical Baccarat trap? If so I may not mind, does it make a difference either way? I amy as well try something different, right?

PLEASE don't be mean, I've been reading other threads on here and I kind of know what you guys think, but because of my meditation and yoga background, I think maybe there MIGHT be a different approach.

I don't know.

I LOVE this game though! LOVE IT!

Hello, AnabelleT, and welcome to the forum.

So, you "LOVE" this game, eh? Ask yourself, if you will:

Is that the new-found $50 talking?
Is it your obvious fascination and excitement over this game talking?
Or might it be your "intuition" talking?

Either of those choices will not serve to provide any sort of real success at this game. That said, AnabelleT, one needn't necessarily have any long-term views or prospects in order to enjoy playing the game. Just as long as you can readily realize that you are playing the game "for entertainment purposes only", and your expectations should be pared down according to the prevailing house's edge (or even worse, depending on what sort of "gambler" that you evolve into).

So you'd need to define your goals...what is it that you're hoping to accomplish at this game? Only upon that answer might you then be best prepared to move forward to take the next steps necessary to accomplishing certain goals, especially long term-wise.

In the meantime, AnabelleT, continue to absorb as much information about the game as you're able...that'll assist you in deciding if, in fact, your "LOVE" affair with this game is just a quick infatuation or a real, long-term affair.

Either way, I wish you all the very best of it.

Quote: AnabelleT

Are there any recommended instruction or teachers of Baccarat out there other than the fishy stuff I've seen on youtube?

Quote: Face

Member gr8player would be your best bet.

She said "other than the fishy stuff".


BetterBet

Quote: gr8player

Hello, AnabelleT, and welcome to the forum.

So, you "LOVE" this game, eh? Ask yourself, if you will:

Is that the new-found $50 talking?
Is it your obvious fascination and excitement over this game talking?
Or might it be your "intuition" talking?

Either of those choices will not serve to provide any sort of real success at this game. That said, AnabelleT, one needn't necessarily have any long-term views or prospects in order to enjoy playing the game. Just as long as you can readily realize that you are playing the game "for entertainment purposes only", and your expectations should be pared down according to the prevailing house's edge (or even worse, depending on what sort of "gambler" that you evolve into).

So you'd need to define your goals...what is it that you're hoping to accomplish at this game? Only upon that answer might you then be best prepared to move forward to take the next steps necessary to accomplishing certain goals, especially long term-wise.

In the meantime, AnabelleT, continue to absorb as much information about the game as you're able...that'll assist you in deciding if, in fact, your "LOVE" affair with this game is just a quick infatuation or a real, long-term affair.

Either way, I wish you all the very best of it.

Hi gr8player! Thank you for responding.

There's an excitement in the casino (when I'm actually playing) that compares to little else. I really enjoy it and I'm having a lot of fun! I used to get that excitement when playing the slots, though I didn't play it all that frequently. Since I discovered Baccarat it's been a very different story!

I think this might be a long-term affair with Baccarat (and maybe other table games later). I know myself pretty well and this game excites me, even when I play it on my iPhone/iPad. I'm not sure how else to describe it, but I love the simplicity, culture, and possible depth of it. My goal is to learn all I can, explore, continue playing, improving, honing in, focusing, and hopefully winning!

Having said all that, even if this game turns out to be nothing but pure chance decisions, I really don't care, I'm still enjoying it and will certainly continue to do so. Plus, the people at the casino have been super nice to me, making me feel important, and making sure I'm having a great time. I appreciate that.

I still haven't heard from anyone here regarding possible instruction/conversation about Baccarat. I'm still open to it. Tonight I'll be going to the casino again, if I see that Chinese man there again, I will talk to him, he may decide to help me understand more about Baccarat and how to approach it, or know someone who will.

Quote: AnabelleT

Having said all that, even if this game turns out to be nothing but pure chance decisions, .

If? There's no 'if' about it, of course it's chance
decisions, that's the point of the shuffle.

Quote: Face

Member gr8player would be your best bet. He's here often. Your post almost made me think you were talking about him, so he might be what you're looking for.

Keep your mind, and your eyes, open.

Why would you do this to her?

Quote: EvenBob

If? There's no 'if' about it, of course it's chance
decisions, that's the point of the shuffle.

So, what's the deal? Are there two EvenBobs?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Why would you do this to her?

Obviously the result of playing ice hockey without a helmet, combined with administrator idiocy.

Quote: AnabelleT

Are there any recommended instruction or teachers of Baccarat out there other than the fishy stuff I've seen on youtube?

No. The optimal strategy in baccarat is to bet the Banker every time. That is the best advice you're going to get.

Quote: AnabelleT

Is all this silly nonsense?

Yes.

Quote: AnabelleT

Am I faling into some kind of mystical Baccarat trap?

Yes.

Quote: AnabelleT

If so I may not mind, does it make a difference either way?

The more you bet on Player the more you will lose.

Quote: AnabelleT

I amy as well try something different, right?

If the alternative is a higher house edge game, sure. However, I'd suggest forgetting baccarat and learning blackjack.

Quote: Face

Member gr8player would be your best bet. He's here often. Your post almost made me think you were talking about him, so he might be what you're looking for.

Keep your mind, and your eyes, open.

seriously , a forum admin grossly misleading a new member asking for help in a game she may not yet understand offers zero long term chance for success?

I don't get it.

Quote: michael99000

seriously , a forum admin grossly misleading a new member asking for help in a game she may not yet understand offers zero long term chance for success?

I don't get it.

Actually, I have to say, I have a problem with this too. This is the Wizard's site. It is one thing for regular members to spew nonsense about negative progressions and beating -EV games, but when admins start doing it, people might get the wrong idea about what the Wizard does and doesn't endorse. I would hate to see someone fall into this trap because they put a lot of faith in the opinion of someone with a green-colored name.

Of course everyone has the right to their opinion, and the Wizard has given us the right to express those opinions on this board so long as we do so within the rules, and, certainly, that includes the admins who volunteer their valuable time to help run the place, so it's a bit of a dilemma. Perhaps some sort of a disclaimer should be attached :)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Actually, I have to say, I have a problem with this too. This is the Wizard's site. It is one thing for regular members to spew nonsense about negative progressions and beating -EV games, but when admins start doing it, people might get the wrong idea about what the Wizard does and doesn't endorse. I would hate to see someone fall into this trap because they put a lot of faith in the opinion of someone with a green-colored name.

Of course everyone has the right to their opinion, and the Wizard has given us the right to express those opinions on this board so long as we do so within the rules, and, certainly, that includes the admins who volunteer their valuable time to help run the place, so it's a bit of a dilemma. Perhaps some sort of a disclaimer should be attached :)

Guys, seriously, I totally understand what "The Wizard" endorses, I've read his page on Baccarat and he's even responded to one of my questions here, I know he's very practical and mathematical, that's great, but to be honest, I'm enjoying a little mysticism with my Baccarat. I'm a big girl and I promise I won't get into trouble (too much trouble anyway). The admin who suggested the man you guys don't seem to like very much has done zero harm to be by making the suggestion. I really appreciate you guys worrying about me and (I guess in a way) wanting to protect me from "ruin". I've got my eyes open, but I also love to spark my imagination! I promise I'll continue to read the threads here and ask questions as I get more experienced. Thank you for your concern, I think it's very sweet of you guys :)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Why would you do this to her?

Quote: Buzzard

Obviously the result of playing ice hockey without a helmet, combined with administrator idiocy.

Quote: michael99000

seriously , a forum admin grossly misleading a new member asking for help in a game she may not yet understand offers zero long term chance for success?

I don't get it.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Actually, I have to say, I have a problem with this too. This is the Wizard's site. It is one thing for regular members to spew nonsense about negative progressions and beating -EV games, but when admins start doing it, people might get the wrong idea about what the Wizard does and doesn't endorse. I would hate to see someone fall into this trap because they put a lot of faith in the opinion of someone with a green-colored name.

Of course everyone has the right to their opinion, and the Wizard has given us the right to express those opinions on this board so long as we do so within the rules, and, certainly, that includes the admins who volunteer their valuable time to help run the place, so it's a bit of a dilemma. Perhaps some sort of a disclaimer should be attached :)

I suspect Annabelle's post above has quelled your fears, but I will defend my post just the same.

Ann's first thread received a bunch of correct information regarding all the math behind Bac, that is, it's completely random and there's nothing you can do to change it. She was warned about systems, about strategies, about all the hocus pocus. She was completely filled in by the same likely suspects that fill in everyone about every game. She has the knowledge.

She returns with this thread and stories of "mysticism", her very own Master Po. She is intrigued. She already has the knowledge needed to understand the game, provided by this very forum. Yet she continues on to say this...

Quote: AnabelleT

Is all this silly nonsense? Am I faling into some kind of mystical Baccarat trap? If so I may not mind, does it make a difference either way? I amy as well try something different, right?

(Bold mine for emphasis) She has everything she needs from a realistic standpoint, yet she wants more. She goes on to talk about her involvement in meditation, yoga, and other spiritual forms of enlightenment. Clearly, she's looking for, and open to, things outside the box.

Upon this post, I knew three things were going to happen. First, the usual suspects would jump in and reiterate reality. There's nothing you can do, follow the math. Check. Second, a few would hop in to make jokes about the wise old Asian's mystical powers. Check. And Third, some would comment for no other reason than she was a woman. Check three, and circle gets the square.

Yet no one answered her query.

I know as well as anyone that systems don't work. Despite gr8player not remembering me, I have interjected in his threads on several occasions, mostly as a mediator to cool a thread that was getting too hot. And in one of those threads, I admitted to playing Pai Gow much the same as I believed he to play Bac, with certain strategies and deviations based off of "feels" and "trends". Really, the only difference between he and I is that he feels and thinks his way helps, while I feel mine helps but know it doesn't.

My offering of gr8's name is based of what I suppose is a difference in belief. While many here, including Wiz, believe that betting systems are worthless, I steer in another direction. After all, my own system is the only reason I play Pai Gow. It has nothing to do with math or money or reality, it has to do with entertainment. My system gives me entertainment that following the script of House Way does not. And does not entertainment have value in and of itself?

The way I looked at it, if Ann had all the knowledge and all the truth that this site offers and has been given to her, following whatever whackadoodle system she found couldn't hurt. If she wanted to read patterns in the doodles of her wise Zen master and bet accordingly, her EV would not change. So why not allow her an avenue to find more fun, more entertainment, and as a result, more value?

Regardless of the color of my name, I enjoy helping people. And I realize that helping sometimes included things that I myself are not interested in. If someone came here stating he loved Caveman Keno and the Big 6 wheel, he understood the math behind it, but was having problems with integrity because he was a good Christian man, what should be my proper response? Should I throw at him more math that he already understands? Should I laugh at him and tell him there is no God and he's wasting his time? Or should I help the man, tell him that our own FrGamble may have answers, and send him his way?

Personally, I see no difference in the two.

I meant no harm, and apologize to member and owner alike if I have caused offense. As always, I am open to criticism.

Quote: Face

I am open to criticism.

The heavy burden of taking on responsibility

Were you not a moderator, who would have said much?

I would say that, as a moderator, if you *know* you are giving Un-Wizardly advice, you are sort of obligated to give a disclaimer. You may feel you don't, but the penalty will probably not be getting the boot from Michael, but having to constantly explain yourself as you have here.

Quote: odiousgambit

Were you not a moderator, who would have said much?

Unsure. I've certainly felt "off my feed" as of late. Perhaps that was a product of it, or perhaps I would have said it anyways. On one hand I totally understand the push back, on the other I know what I was thinking and it felt "right" at the time. It's something I'll think about going forward.

Quote: odiousgambit

I would say that, as a moderator, if you *know* you are giving Un-Wizardly advice, you are sort of obligated to give a disclaimer. You may feel you don't, but the penalty will probably not be getting the boot from Michael, but having to constantly explain yourself as you have here.

Understood. I can only say that at the time of her posting she had already received the math advice, acknowledged it, and appeared to be informed. If one possess the knowledge yet still wishes for the mysticism, why not help her find it?

As far as a disclaimer goes, I don't think it'll be a problem. Rarely do I make such brief posts as I did when suggesting gr8, instead choosing a much more wordy and in depth reply. Adding said disclaimer in the future shouldn't be a problem =)

Quote: Face

Unsure. I've certainly felt "off my feed" as of late. Perhaps that was a product of it, or perhaps I would have said it anyways. On one hand I totally understand the push back, on the other I know what I was thinking and it felt "right" at the time. It's something I'll think about going forward.



Understood. I can only say that at the time of her posting she had already received the math advice, acknowledged it, and appeared to be informed. If one possess the knowledge yet still wishes for the mysticism, why not help her find it?

As far as a disclaimer goes, I don't think it'll be a problem. Rarely do I make such brief posts as I did when suggesting gr8, instead choosing a much more wordy and in depth reply. Adding said disclaimer in the future shouldn't be a problem =)

If someone was looking for for evil or the devil would you help them find it? If your answer is yes, then you have done the right thing.

Quote: Face

My offering of gr8's name is based of what I suppose is a difference in belief. While many here, including Wiz, believe that betting systems are worthless, I steer in another direction. After all, my own system is the only reason I play Pai Gow. It has nothing to do with math or money or reality, it has to do with entertainment. My system gives me entertainment that following the script of House Way does not. And does not entertainment have value in and of itself?

Yes, but gr8 does not claim to use his BS system for entertainment. He claims to use it because it allows him to beat the game. Not only is that complete nonsense, but it's a very dangerous thing to believe.

This is not the same as using a betting system or progression because it's fun. I do that too. When I play craps, I press my wins. It's not because I think it will allow me to beat the game though; it's because the chance of winning a lot of money off of a small initial stake is exciting, which makes the game more fun.

In other words, the reasons are important here, I think. There is a huge difference between saying "moving your bets around in this fashion makes the game more enjoyable" and "moving your bets around in this fashion will allow you to beat the game".

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

In other words, the reasons are important here, I think. There is a huge difference between saying "moving your bets around in this fashion makes the game more enjoyable" and "moving your bets around in this fashion will allow you to beat the game".

Totally and 100% agree. I think that is the very thought that my post hinged on.

Reading her posts up until then, she didn't strike me as a flake, nor someone looking to get rich quick. She stated she understood us here, and was given the entire run down of the math in a thread the previous day. To me, I read that she had the true knowledge, but was looking for more. Was looking for fun. Was looking for mysticism (her words) and was into that sort of "energy of the universe" stuff similar to her meditation and yoga.

To lead a lamb to slaughter would of course have been wrong, and I'd have not thought of doing such. But based on the above, I thought if she was looking outside the box despite knowing there is only the box, I should lead her to the man that would show her what she sought. Especially because, after all, no amount of magic, animal sacrifices, feels, or pattern sensations are going to change her EV one iota.

In any case, there appears to have been a miscommunication based off my too-short post, and I recognize the potential danger. I'll not leave a question in the future.

Thanks for the feedback all =)

Does anyone else feel that this thread is located incorrectly? IOW, placed into the wrong forum.

I was under the impression that mysticism, ESP, trending, baccarat "masters", betting progressions, and other such ideas were more appropriate in the systems forum.

Questions are easy to misplace, especially for new members, but proper categorization is important not only for efficient searching, but also due to the fact that egregious misappropriation has been used as the basis for suspension.

Quote: Face

I meant no harm, and apologize to member and owner alike if I have caused offense. As always, I am open to criticism.

Timely response, Face, as there surely appears no lack of said criticism.

IMHO, those that are seeking to "throw you under the bus" (and let's make no mistake of who they are) should be ashamed of themselves.

You answered a query in an honest, helpful fashion, and are now about to be skewered for it. Shame on all involved in this witch hunt.

What was so wrong to direct her to a source that could assist her and help her to think rationally?

Kindly re-read my posted response to her. Is there anything in there where I suggested anything destructive to her, or were my comments stated in a much more constructive vein? I, too, sought only to assist the OP by giving her some "sense of direction" and realization regarding any possible Bac future for her.

Alas, Face, no one is reading nor even caring about that; not when burning you at the stake is the order of the day.

Shame on all of those involved....IMHO, Face has more strength of character in his pinky toe than all of you, combined.

He's posted his belief in what he was doing in that he was seeking only to help the OP...let's leave it at that, shall we?

Thank you for the defense, gr8player, but I need no defense nor do I think anyone should be shamed.

Stuff like what happened to me in this thread is exactly why I come here. It's a challenge. There is an abundance of intelligence here, the kind that's rewarded with a diploma and initials after one's name, and the kind gathered by years of experience. For all of my own smarts, here I am certainly a little fish in a big pond.

I don't feel embarrassed or ashamed of my own post. In my heart, I know my intentions, and I don't believe anyone is necessarily attacking my intentions. The issue is simply the stuff that has been posted in this thread. How my communication, or lack thereof, could have led a less learned gambler down an uncertain path. It is a contention I both see and understand.

And so I learn. A challenge is not an opportunity to hide, or become defensive, or win at any cost. A challenge is to learn. "Winning" or "losing" is of least importance, it's what you take with you that matters.

And so I have, and so I will.

Edit: And just to add, the biggest fear of volunteering to have my name in green wasn't dealing with the issues like this, rather I feared the loss of dealing with issues like this. The fear that people would hold back simply because I was seen as "different" or above reproach, and would bite their tongue rather than put me to the test.

I'm thankful to see nothing has changed, and I'd not want Axiom or OG or anyone else to feel bad for speaking their minds.

Quote: gr8player

IMHO, those that are seeking to "throw you under the bus" (and let's make no mistake of who they are) should be ashamed of themselves.

The only person getting thrown under a bus is the person who gets directed to you for gambling advice.

Quote:

What was so wrong to direct her to a source that could assist her and help her to think rationally?

(emphasis mine)

lol!!!!

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

The only person getting thrown under a bus is the person who gets directed to you for gambling advice.

Really, AxiomOfChoice? Is that truly how you feel?

Have much do you know of me and my Baccarat theories?

Do you know me as a patient, disciplined, and conservative player?

Do you know the true strike rates and/or variances of my preferred bet selection method?

She could do much worse, my friend, than listening to my advice regarding this game; know that.

But, here's the real shame of it: I, too, am rather reluctant to offer up advice around here. This forum is unworthy of my experience, knowledge, and expertise regarding this game.

You know...you guys are funny...you all jump all over anyone that states their competence, and do you know what that leaves for all to ingest? Incompetence. You guys are the ruination of this forum, not Face. Face is a breath of fresh air around here.

AnabelleT, he can be the real Baccarat Master if he looks like this:

Quote: gr8player

This forum is unworthy of my experience, knowledge, and expertise regarding this game.

.

I take this as a personal insult, one that is directed at me and every other person who does not believe in VooDoo. The sharpest barb by definition must be aimed at our host. I am requesting the moderators ban gr8. Since we are beneath him, he wont miss us peons.

As soon as the Old Chinaman appears, it never
goes well. I've seen him countless times on
gambling forums. He's always mentioned by
new members as somebody who sold them
a winning system, or instructed them how to
beat a game while on his deathbed, or imparted
crappy wisdom like he did here. For some reason
saying something came from an Old Chinaman
makes people believe they will be taken seriously.
It always has the opposite effect.

Quote: gr8player

This forum is unworthy of my experience, knowledge, and expertise regarding this game.
.

And yet here you still are. Ever wonder why
you get the same reaction from every forum
you're on?

Yes, this is really how I feel.

No rational person believes that a betting system exists to beat a -EV game. That is simply all that there is to it.

I know exactly what your strike rates are. When you bet banker you win 45.9% and lose 44.6% (the rest are ties). And when you bet player the numbers are reversed. Just like everyone else's strike rates. Any rational person knows this to be true. Your BS system is, well, BS. That is just all there is to it. Anyone who believes otherwise may as well believe that 1+1=3 or that the tooth fairy will bring them money when they leave a tooth under the pillow.

The nonsense that you spew is dangerous. It causes people to bet more than they can afford to lose, because you misinform them and tell them that they can win. This is pure evil. If you were just some harmless quack telling people that it was possible to square the circle, I would just ignore it, but you are not harmless.

Quote: EvenBob

Ever wonder why
you get the same reaction from every forum
you're on?

What kind of "bullshot" was that, Spike/EvenBob?

As I recall, and I could surely find the posts if asked, YOU were the one laughed off of the Glen, not I. I had countless followers, and still do. And I not only retained those at the now-defunct BF site, I amassed even more. How many followers have you, Spike/EvenBob?

When you don't know what you are talking about, Spike/EvenBob, you'd be best served to remain quiet. Someone like you, with internet reputation as tattered as an old dishcloth, should never, ever denigrate any forum member; and you should know better than to do so.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

No rational person believes that a betting system exists to beat a -EV game. That is simply all that there is to it.

No, that is "all there is to it" in your neatly, ribbon-tied world. I beg to differ, and that, my friend, is exactly WHY I PLAY this game.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I know exactly what your strike rates are. When you bet banker you win 45.9% and lose 44.6% (the rest are ties). And when you bet player the numbers are reversed. Just like everyone else's strike rates. Any rational person knows this to be true. Your BS system is, well, BS. That is just all there is to it.

Please see my response just above, simply rinse and repeat. You've no clue of my strike rates or their variances, if you did truly know, you wouldn't speak of me as you do.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

The nonsense that you spew is dangerous. It causes people to bet more than they can afford to lose, because you misinform them and tell them that they can win. This is pure evil.

Evil, AxiomOfChoice? EVIL!!!??? A little harsh, no? A bit dramatic, no?

I cause people to lose more money than they otherwise would? Is that really what you think?

You, my friend, no NOTHING of me.

Quote: gr8player

What kind of "bullshot" was that.

I'm just wondering why you get so upset at
the reaction you always get, you must be used
to it by now. Why isn't it enough that you
take the casinos money, why do you also have
to have the adoration of the multitudes on
internet forums.

Quote: gr8player

Evil, AxiomOfChoice? EVIL!!!??? A little harsh, no? A bit dramatic, no?

Not just evil. PURE evil.

Quote:

You, my friend, no NOTHING of me.

I am not your friend.

Quote: EvenBob

Why isn't it enough that you
take the casinos money, why do you also have
to have the adoration of the multitudes on
internet forums.

Because, don't you know, I'm doing the IMPOSSIBLE! Just ask pretty much every other member of this esteemed site.....

I mean, I bet Banker, and it wins...OMG...Blasphemy!!! Or, Heaven Forbid, I bet Player, and it wins...NO, it cannot be happening...not at a 53 to 54 percentile, anyhow...it simply cannot happen, because that would cause the earth to spin off of its axis, wouldn't it?