What is a "Sucker Bet" ?
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August 7th, 2013 at 7:26:08 AM
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From the Insurance thread, this post:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/14756-insurance/#post260888
Here's a better question: What is a "Sucker Bet" ?
The obvious answer is: You'll know it when you see it.
But for a more serious response....
Is it merely a bet with a high house edge? If so, where's the dividing line? Does that mean every bet on a double 0 Roulette table is a sucker since you can easily play on a single zero table for half the edge? What about playing the inside bets on Roulette when the even money bets have a lower edge (Atlantic City rules, European Rules, etc.)?
Is it one where you need to make some other bet first. I.E. You can't bet the side bets without playing the base game. If so, does that mean taking odds on a Pass Line bet is a sucker?
Or is it, my personal favorite barometer, one where the casino lets you bet less than the table minimum? Does that mean a Double Down For Less is a sucker? (actually, yeah). But some sucker bets, like the Big 6/8, need to be at table minimum.
Of course, there are entire games that are sucker bets. Big Six (Wheel of Fortune) comes to mind.
I'm starting to think that the obvious answer above is the correct answer.
On a side note, I fully admit that my own creation, Poker For Roulette, is a sucker bet.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/14756-insurance/#post260888
Quote: purpsquadAt what point does a bet become a sucker bet?
3% HE?
4% HE?
Here's a better question: What is a "Sucker Bet" ?
The obvious answer is: You'll know it when you see it.
But for a more serious response....
Is it merely a bet with a high house edge? If so, where's the dividing line? Does that mean every bet on a double 0 Roulette table is a sucker since you can easily play on a single zero table for half the edge? What about playing the inside bets on Roulette when the even money bets have a lower edge (Atlantic City rules, European Rules, etc.)?
Is it one where you need to make some other bet first. I.E. You can't bet the side bets without playing the base game. If so, does that mean taking odds on a Pass Line bet is a sucker?
Or is it, my personal favorite barometer, one where the casino lets you bet less than the table minimum? Does that mean a Double Down For Less is a sucker? (actually, yeah). But some sucker bets, like the Big 6/8, need to be at table minimum.
Of course, there are entire games that are sucker bets. Big Six (Wheel of Fortune) comes to mind.
I'm starting to think that the obvious answer above is the correct answer.
On a side note, I fully admit that my own creation, Poker For Roulette, is a sucker bet.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 7th, 2013 at 7:53:29 AM
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I think it becomes a "sucker bet" when the HE is more than 5% (ie: lose a red chip per black chip)
But YMMV
But YMMV
"I am your average American gambling idiot" - Me
August 7th, 2013 at 7:54:03 AM
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Very rarely do I gamble on anything I think is -EV, but at times I do so if it's a really small amount of money with extreme variance.
So I'd have to say that while it mostly has to do with EV, to a degree, it has to be a function of EV and Variance, because people are essentially buying variance when they bet on anything that's -EV.
Personally, if I was forced to bet a dollar on something, I'd rather it have a 2% edge against me with a variance of 100,000 than a bet with .5% against me and a variance of 2.
That's a totally extreme example. but I only made it to show a point.
So I'd have to say that while it mostly has to do with EV, to a degree, it has to be a function of EV and Variance, because people are essentially buying variance when they bet on anything that's -EV.
Personally, if I was forced to bet a dollar on something, I'd rather it have a 2% edge against me with a variance of 100,000 than a bet with .5% against me and a variance of 2.
That's a totally extreme example. but I only made it to show a point.
August 7th, 2013 at 7:54:46 AM
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1. Purists: I guess if you are a purist all bets where the house has an edge over you is a “sucker” bet. Even if that edge is miniscule, your expectation is to lose – therefore, you make the bet and you are a sucker.
2. House Edgers: However, I think the common perception is somewhat different than the purist’s perception. The common perception is that low-house-edge bets are okay – such as playing basic strategy at blackjack; pass, don’t pass, come, don’t come, with odds at craps; baccarat’s bank or player bets would be “good” bets as well.
3. Loss Per Hour: There is a third way as well, a wrinkle if you will – you must consider loss per hour. A mini-baccarat game can have low-house-edge bets but the speed of the game is such that this small edge can rip away at a bankroll. Playing $50 per hand in mini-baccarat will cost you a lot more than using the Pass or Don’t Pass betting $50 – although the house edges are relatively close on both games.
Loss per hour is rarely brought up when analyzing bets.
2. House Edgers: However, I think the common perception is somewhat different than the purist’s perception. The common perception is that low-house-edge bets are okay – such as playing basic strategy at blackjack; pass, don’t pass, come, don’t come, with odds at craps; baccarat’s bank or player bets would be “good” bets as well.
3. Loss Per Hour: There is a third way as well, a wrinkle if you will – you must consider loss per hour. A mini-baccarat game can have low-house-edge bets but the speed of the game is such that this small edge can rip away at a bankroll. Playing $50 per hand in mini-baccarat will cost you a lot more than using the Pass or Don’t Pass betting $50 – although the house edges are relatively close on both games.
Loss per hour is rarely brought up when analyzing bets.
August 7th, 2013 at 7:58:16 AM
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Isaac Asimov gambled once in his life (a poker game) and even he knew. Enough so to title a story about one "Sucker Bet." (not anywhere near the best of his work, though; and populated by seriously unlikeable characters).
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
August 7th, 2013 at 8:15:52 AM
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A sucker bet is any bet where you have a better chance
of losing than winning. All casino bets are in this catagory.
Just because bac has a lower HE than roulette doesn't
mean its any less of a SB. A knife will kill you just as dead
as a gun.
of losing than winning. All casino bets are in this catagory.
Just because bac has a lower HE than roulette doesn't
mean its any less of a SB. A knife will kill you just as dead
as a gun.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 7th, 2013 at 8:47:45 AM
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A bet that is so good when it wins, it "sucks" you in. Like 21+3, or a Carnival/Novelty Progressive bet (only one dollar!)
August 7th, 2013 at 9:38:13 AM
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Look folks, a sucker bet is a bet made for and generally appealing only to suckers, guys without enough moxie to really know whats up.
You think that wheel that is always near the entranceway ain't designed what to get suckers?
The sucker bet is the old "112 pound man eating chicken" and if you fell for it and got a little antsy about it, a couple of big guys would come out and ask you if you came with friends. If so, they'd calm you down by telling you to go get them and see if they get fooled too.
Its a bet that a "wise guy" would be ashamed to make or at least he would be ashamed to be caught making.
You math types want a bright line test ........ well there ain't one, but if half the table is snickering... its a sucker bet.
You think that wheel that is always near the entranceway ain't designed what to get suckers?
The sucker bet is the old "112 pound man eating chicken" and if you fell for it and got a little antsy about it, a couple of big guys would come out and ask you if you came with friends. If so, they'd calm you down by telling you to go get them and see if they get fooled too.
Its a bet that a "wise guy" would be ashamed to make or at least he would be ashamed to be caught making.
You math types want a bright line test ........ well there ain't one, but if half the table is snickering... its a sucker bet.
August 7th, 2013 at 9:44:56 AM
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Betting on the horses is definitely a suckers bet/ snicker bet. Most casino games, including most of the slots have a lower house edge.
August 7th, 2013 at 9:59:29 AM
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Quote: KeyserBetting on the horses is definitely a suckers bet/ snicker bet. Most casino games, including most of the slots have a lower house edge.
There are often times enough uneducated people out there throwing money into the parimutuel pool to make the horses profitable for the educated players. Especially on the really big races when people are throwing money at the nags because it's their lucky number, or they like the name.
August 7th, 2013 at 10:04:04 AM
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I would say a sucker bet is any that is flashy to hook gamblers. I think there's a threshold where more experienced gamblers, or the ones who pay attention to the math, wouldn't play it.
August 7th, 2013 at 10:24:22 AM
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I'd say it has to be relative to the base payoff of the game. Sure, 00 Roulette might be worse than 0 Roulette, but it isn't inherently a sucker bet. (Now, being a game for suckers... that's a different story.)
August 7th, 2013 at 10:47:30 AM
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Any bet that can be made in another fashion for less house edge
such as Big 6 or Big 8 on craps
such as Big 6 or Big 8 on craps
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
August 7th, 2013 at 12:45:59 PM
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sucker bet
noun
Definition of SUCKER BET
: a bet offered at incorrect odds
According to this definition thats every bet in
a casino. Players can't accept this though, so
they play games with the word 'sucker'. They
have degrees of sucker bets: Roulette is a bad
one, craps not so much. Its a lot like cigarettes
that used to be called 'lights'. People convinced
themselves they were better for them than
regulars, but of course they weren't. People
who play craps think they're less of a sucker
than people who play slots, but of course they're
not.
In the old days frequent players were called 'casino
oriented' by the suits. That was their code phrase
for sucker.
noun
Definition of SUCKER BET
: a bet offered at incorrect odds
According to this definition thats every bet in
a casino. Players can't accept this though, so
they play games with the word 'sucker'. They
have degrees of sucker bets: Roulette is a bad
one, craps not so much. Its a lot like cigarettes
that used to be called 'lights'. People convinced
themselves they were better for them than
regulars, but of course they weren't. People
who play craps think they're less of a sucker
than people who play slots, but of course they're
not.
In the old days frequent players were called 'casino
oriented' by the suits. That was their code phrase
for sucker.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 8th, 2013 at 8:54:15 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffLook folks, a sucker bet is a bet made for and generally appealing only to suckers, guys without enough moxie to really know whats up.
From the casino's perspective, a sucker bet is a sucker bet, regardless of the math skills of the gambler.
Craps is my favorite game, and by craps standards I'm a relatively disciplined player: pass line with full odds, never any proposition bets. But I also play 25 cent video blackjack with terrible rules (4% house edge). Video bj's low bet minimum allows me to get extraordinarily inebriated on free cocktails without hesitation, and so long as I leave my main craps bankroll upstairs in the hotel's in-room safe, I can blow a $20 bill (80 credits!) without much guilt. (I should be playing video poker with 1% edge, but for some reason bj is funner for me when I'm really drunk.) And if the machine is within eyesight of the party pit dancers, it's the best $20 value in all of Nevada.
In other words, I'm the dictionary definition of a sucker and Las Vegas was built on guys like me.
August 8th, 2013 at 12:29:55 PM
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Quote: reno
In other words, I'm the dictionary definition of a sucker and Las Vegas was built on guys like me.
If you don't have an edge, it a sucker bet and game.
Its really not hard to understand. Nobody likes being
a sucker, so we find ways to make us not qualify as
suckers. Carnivals used to call their customers suckers.
Modern casinos are just carnivals that are in a permanent
location. The customers are still suckers, its just not
PC to say it out loud anymore.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 8th, 2013 at 4:22:49 PM
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Quote: KeyserBetting on the horses is definitely a suckers bet/ snicker bet.
Not so, value can be found in ante-post betting. Sometimes minimal, sometimes substantial.
A photon without any luggage checks into a hotel, he's travelling light.
August 8th, 2013 at 6:55:22 PM
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Much like pornography, I don't know exactly how to define a "sucker bet," but I know one when I see it. Factors to consider are:
1. House edge.
2. Variance (I think it is reasonable for a higher variance bet to carry a higher house edge.)
3. Whether it is a side bet or the primary game.
4. Availability of a similar or same bet at better odds.
5. How long the bet stays active.
1. House edge.
2. Variance (I think it is reasonable for a higher variance bet to carry a higher house edge.)
3. Whether it is a side bet or the primary game.
4. Availability of a similar or same bet at better odds.
5. How long the bet stays active.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 8th, 2013 at 7:44:35 PM
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So pretty much big six/big eight, or field with 2x 12/2 fit the bill perfectly.Quote: WizardMuch like pornography, I don't know exactly how to define a "sucker bet," but I know one when I see it. Factors to consider are:
1. House edge.
2. Variance (I think it is reasonable for a higher variance bet to carry a higher house edge.)
3. Whether it is a side bet or the primary game.
4. Availability of a similar or same bet at better odds.
5. How long the bet stays active.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
August 8th, 2013 at 11:07:37 PM
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Making a bet with an unknown online about the result of the US election.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
August 9th, 2013 at 12:13:11 AM
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Would you be that analytical in defining for someone the meaning of the term "sucker punch"?Quote: WizardMuch like pornography, I don't know exactly how to define a "sucker bet," but I know one when I see it. Factors to consider are:
1. House edge.
2. Variance (I think it is reasonable for a higher variance bet to carry a higher house edge.)
3. Whether it is a side bet or the primary game.
4. Availability of a similar or same bet at better odds.
5. How long the bet stays active.
Sucker bet is in the eye of the beholder but the beholder ain't no green eye shade type. A sucker is someone Benny Binion won't take no marker from and won't share his chilli with. A sucker is someone Benny Binion don't say hello to. A sucker is someone ignored when he enters a barber shop and ignored when men line up at the porcelain. A sucker bet is based on house edge and stupidity.
August 9th, 2013 at 12:54:23 AM
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Basically either high odds, high house edge or any bet asking for more money to be bet at a higher house edge than the orginal bet.
I am a robot.
August 9th, 2013 at 1:01:13 AM
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Any bet that is offered at incorrect odds.
I was originally looking for a legal definition, as in unregulated bet being a sucker bet because the bet is not regulated by laws.
So, the common law definition will have to suffice.
I was originally looking for a legal definition, as in unregulated bet being a sucker bet because the bet is not regulated by laws.
So, the common law definition will have to suffice.
Buffering...
August 9th, 2013 at 5:05:12 AM
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It seems the Wiz and I are on the same page here...
Quote: DJTeddyBearWhat is a "Sucker Bet" ?
The obvious answer is: You'll know it when you see it.
Quote: WizardMuch like pornography, I don't know exactly how to define a "sucker bet," but I know one when I see it.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 9th, 2013 at 12:49:55 PM
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If you're betting one time only, any bet in the
casino is a good bet. But who does that. If
you're going to bet hundreds and thousands
of times, every bet where the other side has
the edge is a sucker bet.
Look at it this way. You have an edge on some
bet and your dumb cousin Elmer knows you have
an edge. Yet he keeps making the bet with you
till eventually he's so far down he'll never get
caught up. You would readily call Elmer a sucker.
Thats what the casino calls its customers. Suckers.
The players, however, think of themselves as
'entertained'. Its also called denial.
sucker [ˈsʌkə]
n
2. a person who is easily deceived or swindled
casino is a good bet. But who does that. If
you're going to bet hundreds and thousands
of times, every bet where the other side has
the edge is a sucker bet.
Look at it this way. You have an edge on some
bet and your dumb cousin Elmer knows you have
an edge. Yet he keeps making the bet with you
till eventually he's so far down he'll never get
caught up. You would readily call Elmer a sucker.
Thats what the casino calls its customers. Suckers.
The players, however, think of themselves as
'entertained'. Its also called denial.
sucker [ˈsʌkə]
n
2. a person who is easily deceived or swindled
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 9th, 2013 at 3:25:42 PM
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Quote: wrobersonAny bet that is offered at incorrect odds.
By this, do we include all casino games? Sports betting? Horses?
No one makes money paying out true odds.
August 9th, 2013 at 3:52:43 PM
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Quote: EvenBobYou have an edge on some
bet and your dumb cousin Elmer knows you have
an edge. Yet he keeps making the bet with you
till eventually he's so far down he'll never get
caught up. You would readily call Elmer a sucker.
To constantly gamble at a negative EV game is 'sucker' behavior, and DJTB and the Wiz would readily agree it is such, I am thinking.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
August 9th, 2013 at 4:56:03 PM
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Quote: odiousgambitTo constantly gamble at a negative EV game is 'sucker' behavior, and DJTB and the Wiz would readily agree it is such, I am thinking.
And thats what everybody does. Who plays craps
or Paigow or slots just once. Nobody. Nobody likes
being a sucker so this behavior is now sugar coated
as 'entertainment'. JoeBlow is on his way to the
casino to entertain himself with sucker bets. Joe was
never good at math, he could never figure out what
good it did to know all that useless garbage.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 9th, 2013 at 5:33:21 PM
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Quote: WizardMuch like pornography, I don't know exactly how to define a "sucker bet," but I know one when I see it. Factors to consider are:
1. House edge.
2. Variance (I think it is reasonable for a higher variance bet to carry a higher house edge.)
3. Whether it is a side bet or the primary game.
4. Availability of a similar or same bet at better odds.
5. How long the bet stays active.
1. Well some people don't care about House Edge. Just look at the house edge in lottery (40% to 50%)
2. Personally, I think that roulette single number bets that pay 36:1 have a reasonable house edge
3. Once again, some people think the side bets are what makes the game fun
4. Unequivocal this case is a sucker bet. Examples are Big 6 and Big 8 in craps
5. I agree that Hardways bet in craps is fun simply because they can last a long time.
Much like one person's pornography is another person's erotica, the sucker bet is usually slang. Many people call some bets "sucker bets" while regularly betting on much worse house odds.
Personally, I call a bet a sucker bet if a person doesn't know what they are doing. For instance "even money" in blackjack is in my opinion a "sucker bet" because people who take it don't know what they are doing. It doesn't have particularly high house edge, and is not on the list.
While most people would call the "big wheel" a sucker bet, it provides some people with a great deal of entertainment. I would feel bad about taking that away.
August 9th, 2013 at 5:38:31 PM
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Quote: pacomartin
Personally, I call a bet a sucker bet if a person doesn't know what they are doing.
You're half right Dan. You're also a sucker
if you know what you're doing, know the
odds, and keep doing it anyway. You're
not only a sucker, you're also an idiot.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 11th, 2013 at 9:38:32 AM
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Quote: pacomartinPersonally, I call a bet a sucker bet if a person doesn't know what they are doing.
Quote: EvenBobYou're half right Dan. You're also a sucker
if you know what you're doing, know the
odds, and keep doing it anyway. You're
not only a sucker, you're also an idiot.
I hope this wasn't directed at Paco......he is one of the most diversely knowledgeable members I know on the Forum. He shares his knowledge on such a wide variety of topics that I am continually amazed. I don't think anyone's actions on the casino floor dictate their intellectual ability as you seem to indicate here.
August 11th, 2013 at 10:44:08 AM
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Two ways to know:
1) "I would never make that bet!"
2) "Oh [heck], why the [heck] did I make that bet!!??"
1) "I would never make that bet!"
2) "Oh [heck], why the [heck] did I make that bet!!??"
A falling knife has no handle.
August 11th, 2013 at 9:17:08 PM
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Any wager that an unsuspecting punter has no knowledge, Lotto is a very good example 195Million to 1 with a 45% House edge. One might win a prize twice a year given 1 ticket every draw. Considering a Place 6 or Place 8 is a marginal chance at long-term viability, I also think lots of bets offered at even 2% H.A. are not good. There are not too many $5 bets in a casino with less than a 2% H.A. these days. VP and Craps are typically it, and I have my doubts due to increasing low-limits these days. Borderline includes UTH, and PGP, both take knowledge to even get close. BTW, UTH is probably the last good $2 game.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
