Pai Gow at the MGM
April 1st, 2010 at 1:08:19 PM
permalink
I just had my first experience playing pai gow with a live dealer and thought I would share some thoughts.
I met some friends at the MGM on 3/28 and stayed for three nights. While there, I played approximately nine hours of pai gow total over three days. Mostly I played $25 hands, but played a few $50 hands one evening. Here are some observations:
1) While playing $25 hands the commission was 4%. I noticed that when someone won a $50+ hand they paid a 5% commission. I'm sure the 4% at $25 is so they don't have to mess with quarters.
2) The table limit for the entire time of our stay was $25 to $10,000. The maximum surprised me in contrast to the minimum. I discussed it with several of the dealers who all said it was not unusual for high rollers from China/SE Asia to come and play $10K hands, hence the wide range.
3) One table was open 24 hours a day, and there was another one that could be opened if things got busy (they didn't during our stay). When I sat down one afternoon I was dealt one hand by the dealer there before he was replaced. He said that was the end of his shift and the one hand he dealt me was the only one he had dealt all shift. The next dealer said that was not unusual, but again, they keep the table open all the time for high rollers from overseas.
This being my first time playing for money (I learned using the Wizard's on-line version - thanks Wizard!), I found myself really enjoying the game. It has a nice aesthetic, and I felt a greater sense of involvement than with most other games. There were short streaks of volatility, but it seemed almost impossible to get into too much trouble at $25/hand. I also bet $1 for the dealer every hand I played, and tipped an additional few dollars at the end of every play session. Regardless of that added expense, at any point I was never more than $200 up or down. The lack of volatility was nice in terms of entertainment value, and one of the older managers commented (jokingly) that we were just there to milk the casino for comps and drinks at a measly $25/hand. In retrospect, he was right. Although my comps seemed low ($47.50 - basically a meal and round of drinks), I never felt like I was hemorrhaging money like I sometimes do playing BJ or craps thanks to pai gow's slow pace and tendency toward pushes. I ended up ahead in the end, but not by more than $100.
Finally, I would like to offer props to the dealers at MGM, who, after their initial surprise/incredulity at seeing a garden variety caucasian male sit down at their table, quickly warmed up and were friendly and outgoing, making for a very positive experience. This would be a tough game to learn from scratch at the table, but my two friends managed to do it and the casino (and other players) didn't seem to mind providing help at all, although admittedly the place wasn't very busy.
I would appreciate hearing people's experiences playing pai gow at other LV casinos, as I am hoping to be back in town soon.
- Rod
I met some friends at the MGM on 3/28 and stayed for three nights. While there, I played approximately nine hours of pai gow total over three days. Mostly I played $25 hands, but played a few $50 hands one evening. Here are some observations:
1) While playing $25 hands the commission was 4%. I noticed that when someone won a $50+ hand they paid a 5% commission. I'm sure the 4% at $25 is so they don't have to mess with quarters.
2) The table limit for the entire time of our stay was $25 to $10,000. The maximum surprised me in contrast to the minimum. I discussed it with several of the dealers who all said it was not unusual for high rollers from China/SE Asia to come and play $10K hands, hence the wide range.
3) One table was open 24 hours a day, and there was another one that could be opened if things got busy (they didn't during our stay). When I sat down one afternoon I was dealt one hand by the dealer there before he was replaced. He said that was the end of his shift and the one hand he dealt me was the only one he had dealt all shift. The next dealer said that was not unusual, but again, they keep the table open all the time for high rollers from overseas.
This being my first time playing for money (I learned using the Wizard's on-line version - thanks Wizard!), I found myself really enjoying the game. It has a nice aesthetic, and I felt a greater sense of involvement than with most other games. There were short streaks of volatility, but it seemed almost impossible to get into too much trouble at $25/hand. I also bet $1 for the dealer every hand I played, and tipped an additional few dollars at the end of every play session. Regardless of that added expense, at any point I was never more than $200 up or down. The lack of volatility was nice in terms of entertainment value, and one of the older managers commented (jokingly) that we were just there to milk the casino for comps and drinks at a measly $25/hand. In retrospect, he was right. Although my comps seemed low ($47.50 - basically a meal and round of drinks), I never felt like I was hemorrhaging money like I sometimes do playing BJ or craps thanks to pai gow's slow pace and tendency toward pushes. I ended up ahead in the end, but not by more than $100.
Finally, I would like to offer props to the dealers at MGM, who, after their initial surprise/incredulity at seeing a garden variety caucasian male sit down at their table, quickly warmed up and were friendly and outgoing, making for a very positive experience. This would be a tough game to learn from scratch at the table, but my two friends managed to do it and the casino (and other players) didn't seem to mind providing help at all, although admittedly the place wasn't very busy.
I would appreciate hearing people's experiences playing pai gow at other LV casinos, as I am hoping to be back in town soon.
- Rod
April 1st, 2010 at 1:37:38 PM
permalink
Tiles or Poker? Sounds like you're talking about tiles.
$25 - $10,000 ? Wow. That sure is a big range! Would a $10,000 player want to play with a $25 player? Hmmm... Why not? It's not like BJ where a player can screw up the shoe. (Yeah, I know....)
$25 - $10,000 ? Wow. That sure is a big range! Would a $10,000 player want to play with a $25 player? Hmmm... Why not? It's not like BJ where a player can screw up the shoe. (Yeah, I know....)
My wife calls it "That stupid game with the quarters." Of course, she's talking about Pai Gow Poker. I'm not ready for Pai Gow Tiles...Quote: RodneyI'm sure the 4% at $25 is so they don't have to mess with quarters.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 1st, 2010 at 3:43:42 PM
permalink
It was the tiles game.
I was going to ask how the HA changes at 4% commission, but then realized that it probably doesn't really matter in my situation, playing $25/hand and not playing often enough to likely see probability assert itself. :)
Honestly, I would recommend this game to anyone who likes to play games. The tiles are fun and the game is really not hard to learn, regardless of how it may appear at first. Not a bad way to spend an evening without all the stress that goes with a faster/more volatile game.
I was going to ask how the HA changes at 4% commission, but then realized that it probably doesn't really matter in my situation, playing $25/hand and not playing often enough to likely see probability assert itself. :)
Honestly, I would recommend this game to anyone who likes to play games. The tiles are fun and the game is really not hard to learn, regardless of how it may appear at first. Not a bad way to spend an evening without all the stress that goes with a faster/more volatile game.
April 1st, 2010 at 5:09:35 PM
permalink
Welcome to the dark side! For some reason that I can't quite place my finger on, I have become completely addicted to Pai Gow tiles. At first I found it to be quite a mental challenge. Even though there are only three ways to arrange your hand, I found it often required quite a bit of puzzling to evaluate the possibilities. Now I'm usually pretty automatic, but its still my favorite way to spend my time in a casino.
I enjoy the incredulous looks from the dealers when I sit down. Sometimes I'll even shout out: "Look out, its a white guy!" They almost always point to the tiles to make sure I know where I am. And I get a kick out of passing tourists: "Look, you can play dominoes in the casino!"
On a recent trip I was surprised to find that Harrahs has a low stakes tile table which is open 24/7. On my last trip I played at Bellagio on Sunday night, where I was surprised to find three tables open. I've also played at MGM Grand, Paris and Venetian. I've had a good time playing at each location. Can't really recommend one spot over another.
I avoid playing at tables which are full of elderly Asian gentlemen. It seems there is a great deal of tradition and etiquette surrounding the game that I have not fully caught onto yet, and I don't want to upset anybody. Plus those guys can really smoke!
I learned that when another player is banking, it is often acceptable to play along with their hand. I always ask before I do this to make sure it won't bother them. They have often shared their tiles with me in this scenario, so I can "help" construct the hand (they get the final say-so, of course). I had a very enjoyable round at the Venetian, playing with one other player. He'd bank and I'd help, then I'd bank and he'd help. It was very sociable. I haven't thought the process thru to determine if we were actually getting extra banking opportunities because of this.
I'm surprised to hear that they only charged $1 commission on a $25 hand. I always bet in multiples of $20 to avoid bus fare.
I enjoy the incredulous looks from the dealers when I sit down. Sometimes I'll even shout out: "Look out, its a white guy!" They almost always point to the tiles to make sure I know where I am. And I get a kick out of passing tourists: "Look, you can play dominoes in the casino!"
On a recent trip I was surprised to find that Harrahs has a low stakes tile table which is open 24/7. On my last trip I played at Bellagio on Sunday night, where I was surprised to find three tables open. I've also played at MGM Grand, Paris and Venetian. I've had a good time playing at each location. Can't really recommend one spot over another.
I avoid playing at tables which are full of elderly Asian gentlemen. It seems there is a great deal of tradition and etiquette surrounding the game that I have not fully caught onto yet, and I don't want to upset anybody. Plus those guys can really smoke!
I learned that when another player is banking, it is often acceptable to play along with their hand. I always ask before I do this to make sure it won't bother them. They have often shared their tiles with me in this scenario, so I can "help" construct the hand (they get the final say-so, of course). I had a very enjoyable round at the Venetian, playing with one other player. He'd bank and I'd help, then I'd bank and he'd help. It was very sociable. I haven't thought the process thru to determine if we were actually getting extra banking opportunities because of this.
I'm surprised to hear that they only charged $1 commission on a $25 hand. I always bet in multiples of $20 to avoid bus fare.
April 1st, 2010 at 7:33:51 PM
permalink
In Reno Silver Legacy and the Peppermill have $10 Pai Gow Tiles! Pai Gow is usually an expensive game so it is a great place for a low roller like me to play, I played for about 30 minutes and left $20 ahead! The guy next to me was a middle aged to older asian guy, he would range his bet up and down and move between betting circles since it was only the two of us, I guess there is some superstition to the game and he also got angry at the dealer for not handing out the tiles in the correct order yelling at her in chinese (she said she did not speak it, I think he was saying something about me) He banked and I won! I told him I would rather give you my $ than the casino when he elected to bank but he did not say much, during the 30 minutes he probably won about $1,000 betting about $200-$500 a hand, always in huge stacks of green!
April 1st, 2010 at 8:00:50 PM
permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuffThe guy next to me was a middle aged to older asian guy, he would range his bet up and down and move between betting circles since it was only the two of us, I guess there is some superstition to the game...
I also have gotten into the habit of hunting around on the felt for a lucky spot. Being a hardcore engineer, I know that there is no statistical advantage of one spot over another. But if you're going to play a hunch and pray for luck, it makes the most sense to do so in a manner which doesn't negatively affect your chances, either.
Quote: NicksGamingStuffHe banked and I won! I told him I would rather give you my $ than the casino when he elected to bank but he did not say much...
I played at a full table one time where each player banked on their turn, and everybody else sat out. I didn't want to mess with their mojo, but I didn't want to play one hand every half hour, either. I got up and left (which may have been what they intended from the start). It was a blessing to learn about playing along with the banker. More action, more camaraderie!
April 1st, 2010 at 8:16:49 PM
permalink
Welcome to the club of pale-face pai gow players! At first we were very small in numbers, but our ranks have steadily increased over the last five years. I’d like to think I had something to do with that. Personally, I love pai gow. Considering house edge, volatility, fun, and challenge, nothing else compares in my opinion.
When I first started playing there seemed to be an understood etiquette that when a player wanted to bank, you didn’t go against him. However, I think the Asian players are getting sick of the pale-faces slowing down the game by invoking the right to bank, and have been betting. In some cases they will deliberately bet more than they normally do, and I normally do, I’m quite sure to make me back down.
Evidently the pale-faces have not infiltrated the game in Sydney yet. When I sat down to play there every Asian player at the table (there were four I think) immediately stomped off in a huff. The dealer didn’t seem pleased either, like I ruined the game. I won’t even get into the ridiculous encounter I had playing in Macau.
I hope this post doesn’t come off as racist. I’m happy to share the game with anybody, and sometimes Asian players will offer praise and surprise that I understand the game. However, when I play I still feel like I’m crashing a party. The cultural aspects of playing are hard to ignore.
When I first started playing there seemed to be an understood etiquette that when a player wanted to bank, you didn’t go against him. However, I think the Asian players are getting sick of the pale-faces slowing down the game by invoking the right to bank, and have been betting. In some cases they will deliberately bet more than they normally do, and I normally do, I’m quite sure to make me back down.
Evidently the pale-faces have not infiltrated the game in Sydney yet. When I sat down to play there every Asian player at the table (there were four I think) immediately stomped off in a huff. The dealer didn’t seem pleased either, like I ruined the game. I won’t even get into the ridiculous encounter I had playing in Macau.
I hope this post doesn’t come off as racist. I’m happy to share the game with anybody, and sometimes Asian players will offer praise and surprise that I understand the game. However, when I play I still feel like I’m crashing a party. The cultural aspects of playing are hard to ignore.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
April 1st, 2010 at 9:27:11 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardEvidently the pale-faces have not infiltrated the game in Sydney yet. When I sat down to play there every Asian player at the table (there were four I think) immediately stomped off in a huff. The dealer didn�t seem pleased either, like I ruined the game. I won�t even get into the ridiculous encounter I had playing in Macau.
I think you're bad experience is probably typical of Sydney in many ways more that the game. When I play in Melbourne Im always made to feel more than welcome by the other players despite generally being the only caucasian at the table. Its actually so rare to get a white player at the table that Im usually asked what casino I deal the game at as they assume dealers are the only ones who play it.
You won't find too many non-asians at the Pai Gow tables in Australia, although there usually arent many tables anyway. Melbourne would have the most at probably 7 or 8 (it used to have about 20 tables going back several years). Its my favourite game and I spend the majority of game time playing it. Oddly enough even having played well over 1000 hours over the past 10 years I would still be ahead financially on it. If anyone has any idea of the chances of still being ahead after that long Id be interested to know.
April 2nd, 2010 at 2:40:48 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardWelcome to the club of pale-face pai gow players! At first we were very small in numbers, but our ranks have steadily increased over the last five years. I’d like to think I had something to do with that.
Wizard- be assured that there are 3 people in our regular Vegas group that have ventured into Pai Gow tiles because of you, your site and your software. Thanks a lot! However - we're too timid to play with Asians, so we usually play at 7 in the morning at an empty table.
April 4th, 2010 at 10:28:48 PM
permalink
I only ran into one player banker in my experience at MGM, an older Asian gal with about 10K worth of rings on her fingers. She made it very clear that it was okay for me to play against her. She was very kind and gracious. The rest of the non-caucasians I played with fit into one of two categories: American-Chinese college students or Chinese high-roller tourists. Neither seemed to mind and in fact appeared to enjoy having a well-mannered and appreciative guy like me at the table. The conversation was always light and considerate.
Honestly, I'm not "pro" or even very experienced at table games. I've lost plenty at blackjack and am a bit ahead in my lifetime record at craps. Other than those games, some pai gow poker and let it ride, my only table game experience has been this run at pai gow tiles. While I do enjoy craps, nothing has beat the tiles for shear enjoyment. Time seemed to fly by at the table!
In regards to the cultural aspect of the game, perhaps I just got lucky this trip. I understand how cultural differences can lead to uncomfortable moments. Having lived in the orient I may have a developed sensitivity to their cultural customs. Yet I never felt that, as long as I had good manners and respect, I had to be anything other than myself at the pai gow table. It will be interesting to go back again and see if my perspective of this changes at all.
Again, my thanks to the Wizard for introducing me to and teaching me this wonderful game through the wizardofodds website. Now if I could only memorize one of his strategies! :)
Honestly, I'm not "pro" or even very experienced at table games. I've lost plenty at blackjack and am a bit ahead in my lifetime record at craps. Other than those games, some pai gow poker and let it ride, my only table game experience has been this run at pai gow tiles. While I do enjoy craps, nothing has beat the tiles for shear enjoyment. Time seemed to fly by at the table!
In regards to the cultural aspect of the game, perhaps I just got lucky this trip. I understand how cultural differences can lead to uncomfortable moments. Having lived in the orient I may have a developed sensitivity to their cultural customs. Yet I never felt that, as long as I had good manners and respect, I had to be anything other than myself at the pai gow table. It will be interesting to go back again and see if my perspective of this changes at all.
Again, my thanks to the Wizard for introducing me to and teaching me this wonderful game through the wizardofodds website. Now if I could only memorize one of his strategies! :)
