Craps: What have you seen when it comes to "Sweating the Money"

In another thread there have been a couple of suggestions that casinos bring in "coolers" or even agitators to help them sweat the money at a hot Craps Table. Reading between the lines, these posters seem to suggest it could even be collusion to cheat them outright somehow.

I admit I never have suspected this, but may just not have played enough to see it. The most memorable hot table for me involved a novice, a young lady, [yep, supports the superstition], who actually just arrived and was exhausted and begged to be allowed to leave, but who absolutely could *not* roll a seven against a point for the longest. Naturally everyone else begged her to continue. It was the first time I ever cleaned up at craps. Yet I didnt see anything odd going on in the way of sweating the money.

I've seen gamblers show up when the table got hot alright, but it just looked to me like players who sat back and waited for hot tables. I can see them getting the blame for the table cooling off when it was just something that would happen naturally.

I'd like to hear what it is folks here have seen when it comes to what the casino really does to sweat the money.

Oh the stories I could tell.......
The story I related in the other thread regarding the Bahama's casino, I will go to my grave believing they were shills for the casino. I suppose they could have just been terrible craps players with a complete lack of understanding of flow and continuity, but I choose to believe in conspiracy, and I will not let facts interfere with that belief.

I was playing in Tunica last year on a choppy table and my buddy on my right gets the dice, and announces to me he is going to roll for 30 minutes. We laughed, but unbelievably he came up just a couple of minutes short. The gent between us passed and as the dice came to me, my buddy said he got his 30 minutes and I needed to roll for an hour. By the time I had rolled for 40 minutes the table had become packed, and at the other end of the table they were betting all kinds of weird center table bets, and people were hopping bets like crazy. By the time I hit one hour, it was taking the dealers 2-3 minutes to figure out the payouts every time. I was in the zone and was completely unaffected by the confusion, but the guy standing next to me was furious. He kept saying how those guys were making the hop bets and then arguing about the payoffs just to cool me off (and they were $1-$4 piddly bets). Funny thing was, he was probably doing more to mess up my zone then the other end of the table. At one point he yells at 2 guys on the other end, and tells them since they were only betting $1 and $2 hops, he would give them each $100 if they would just leave. It was so comical. I 7'd out at 1 hr 10 min.

My point to the story?
I did not feel the guys making the center table bets and the hop bets were there to cool my buddy or me off, BUT, I can guarantee you the gent next to me was very positive that was exactly what they were called in to do. Perhaps the fact that I was up $4k, while he said he got a lot back but was still stuck for $2k after my roll, had a bearing on our perceptions.

And now for Paul Harvey's "The Rest of The Story".
After I outed, the dice went to the other end of the table, where each person in turn announced "pass", until the whole table had passed the dice back to me. Alas, it was not to be. I made one point very quickly but then 7'd out within a couple of rolls. So much for the hot hand.

Players are superstitious, and sometimes even dealers... but definitely not casino management. Anyone operating a casino who believes in such nonsense wouldn't last long in the business. There is no amount of unlucky or rude people the casino can throw at a table that will affect the outcome of the dice. The fact is that there will always be occasional strings of good luck for players, and casinos know this. They're in it for the long haul however! There are going to be more strings of bad luck than good and they win out in the end. In fact, I'd imagine casinos like it when there are awesome runs at craps tables and when people hit big jackpots at the slots. This keeps the players coming in the doors.

I usggest going online to Scientific American. There look up Shermer's (The Skeptic) column and try to find two particular ones: Patternicity and Agenticity.

Quote: jeremykay

Players are superstitious, and sometimes even dealers... but definitely not casino management. Anyone operating a casino who believes in such nonsense wouldn't last long in the business. There is no amount of unlucky or rude people the casino can throw at a table that will affect the outcome of the dice. The fact is that there will always be occasional strings of good luck for players, and casinos know this. They're in it for the long haul however! There are going to be more strings of bad luck than good and they win out in the end. In fact, I'd imagine casinos like it when there are awesome runs at craps tables and when people hit big jackpots at the slots. This keeps the players coming in the doors.

At the top level of casino management, all of the numbers for each table will indeed aggregate into a financial result which will show typical win volumes with variances for the large betters and whales. As you get into lower levels (financial analysts) and lower levels (floor bosses, pit supervisors, and dealers), you will find those who believe in streaks and will indeed sweat the money, believing that a series of losses or low performance (due to a lucky streak) will lead into their layoff.

For dealers themselves, you will find that some are happy that you are winning, as long as they are being tipped. Some dealers probably believe that the tips they are receiving do not warrant good service so they may root for the house as well and in effect disrupt purposefully the flow of the game in order to perhaps please the pit who may be also "sweating the money".

IMHO, where the market exists, people will go to an establishment where the dealers are friendly, the game is fair, the drinks are flowing, and the casino doesn't sweat the money.

I agree with Jeremy. There couldn't be a casino that justifies a budget line-item for "Cooling down hot Craps tables because if we get a shill to throw money down mid-roll a 7-out is more likely." Unless some of our favorite posters on our favorite threads (!) owned a casino.

My wife made a claim, on our last stay, that casinos enticed "hot woman" to play at the casino to make the casino more profitable. I put that remark in the same category as casinos pumping in oxygen, loading the dice to throw more sevens, and the shuffler fixing the cards to give you losing hands ad nauseum.

I too doubt that there is a budget line item for "craps table cooler" personnel, though there may be plain clothes security on site to look for scammers and cheats... maybe another one of their "other duties as assigned" is to cool down the craps table (LOL).

Quote: boymimbo

My wife made a claim, on our last stay, that casinos enticed "hot woman" to play at the casino to make the casino more profitable.

That one makes sense. But it overlooks the presence of attractive cocktail waitresses in skimpy outfits throughout all casinos, not to mention the lingerie pits in many casinos.

Quote: boymimbo

I too doubt that there is a budget line item for "craps table cooler" personnel, though

Yeah, but wouldn't that be a great job to have?

Hmm. I wonder if I can come up with a story about a casino where all the myths are real ;)

Quote: boymimbo

My wife made a claim, on our last stay, that casinos enticed "hot woman" to play at the casino to make the casino more profitable. I put that remark in the same category as casinos pumping in oxygen, loading the dice to throw more sevens, and the shuffler fixing the cards to give you losing hands ad nauseum.

There is a story online at dicedealer which says back in the day (1970s?) their craps crew hired a hooker in a low cut top to play so as to attract lots of big-player guys over to their table. If tips went crew-for-crew I could easily see a smart crew doing that. But not casino management.

Quote: AZDuffman

There is a story online at dicedealer which says back in the day (1970s?) their craps crew hired a hooker in a low cut top to play so as to attract lots of big-player guys over to their table.

I really don't want to hijack the thread, but I do have a quick question for people somewhat in regards to this.

I had read a story (don't remember where) about a scam that people did at a craps table. It involved an attractive woman, who pretended to not quite know how to play, and a male partner, usually on the other end of the table. When she was rolling, the man would throw her chips, trying to entice "good luck" and get other people to throw her chips as well. At the same time, the man would take advantage of distractions to take other peoples' chips off the rail.

I don't know whether or not to believe this, however, I do have to admit to being a bit nervous when some attractive (or even plain) woman comes and stands next to me, and starts asking me all kinds of questions about the game, and what bets to make, and how do you throw the dice, and etc, etc.

I don't like making suggestions on what bets should be made anyway (for much the same reason I don't give advice on picking stocks), but does anybody else get nervous, worried, freaked out by this occurrence? (For women players, I suppose a nice looking man asking you questions would achieve the same nervousness.)

Recently at the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas, I had this VERY attractive (and drunk) woman come stand next to me and ask about betting and rolling and etc, etc. On the one hand, she was very much appealing in the base shallow-male point of view. On the other hand, her presence and questions and flirting was very distracting, and made me nervous about what kind of scam might be perpetrating, that I eventually left the table and cashed out. Checking to make sure I wasn't followed. Silliness on my part?

Quote: konceptum

Recently at the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas, I had this VERY attractive (and drunk) woman come stand next to me and ask about betting and rolling and etc, etc. On the one hand, she was very much appealing in the base shallow-male point of view. On the other hand, her presence and questions and flirting was very distracting, and made me nervous about what kind of scam might be perpetrating, that I eventually left the table and cashed out. Checking to make sure I wasn't followed. Silliness on my part?

At the risk of disparaging a woman I never saw, I will venture that perhaps she was 'working'? If you watch enough craps you will notice many, ah potential transactions, taking place. And this is not just at the 'lower class' casinos. I won't name any casinos on here, but I have seen girls pick up guys at every casino I have played in, and that includes many Vegas strip casinos. I have noticed a correlation between the number of pretties that come stand next to/talk to me, and the number of chips in my rack. If I have $200+ in the rack, not so much activity. But get about $2000 in there and apparently my inner Fabio comes out.
Certainly not all of them are working. I'm sure some are slightly drunk and are drawn to the game with all the yelling and cheering, and want to try and join in the fun. But as you indicated, if you have to hawkeye your chip rack every second, it does distract from playing the game.

As a general rule, I will place my blacks in the rack closest to the felt, and I always put a white on the outsides of the rack. That way, if someone does try to swipe a chip, they are going to need to grab two. And, I will notice right away that one has been pinched. Greens go in the same rack, but in the righthand side of the trough, again white chip on the outside...... I can't believe people call me anal.

Quote: konceptum

Recently at the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas, I had this VERY attractive (and drunk) woman come stand next to me and ask about betting and rolling and etc, etc. On the one hand, she was very much appealing in the base shallow-male point of view. On the other hand, her presence and questions and flirting was very distracting, and made me nervous about what kind of scam might be perpetrating, that I eventually left the table and cashed out. Checking to make sure I wasn't followed. Silliness on my part?

Not silliness. Most scams count on very base behavior by the mark (greed or lust).

There are two directions to this thread. Coolers are part of the superstition of gambling. They are one of the legends (like Shoeless Joe who wins a fortune in blackjack and spurring the kindness of the casino owner for a free room, proceeds to lose his entire fortune.

Using hot women enticing men to do something is just business. However, most casinos simply use them as a way to get men to gamble longer (often at bad odds). The funniest thing that I ever saw at Hooter's was a woman at the table with good odds dealing in long sleeve flannel underwear. Naturally they also had a pit with girls in orange shorts and t-shirts that offered a much higher house edge. I thought that the point was extreme. What woman goes to work in flannel underwear? The next thing you know the casinos will offer single deck full pay blackjack, but the dealer sneezes on the cards every 15 minutes.

I believe that the "pleasure pits" that have cropped up at PH and Caesars are good examples of what you are talking about. I've sat at one of those tables and I felt just guilty and stupid sitting there staring at the dealer's pair (and I am not talking about cards).

Quote: RaleighCraps

At the risk of disparaging a woman I never saw, I will venture that perhaps she was 'working'?

Somehow, I doubt it. At the time, I had less than $100 in chips in front of me. I had been losing, and I don't think I looked like someone who had tons of money. Further, while I said she was attractive, I think I should have clarified that she was attractive TO ME. It's almost as if someone who knew me really well, went out and found a girl that would appeal to me in the things I like, and sent her over to me as a joke. Seriously. Not that she couldn't have been a working girl, but she just didn't really match what I think of as being a working girl.

Quote: RaleighCraps

As a general rule, I will place my blacks in the rack closest to the felt, and I always put a white on the outsides of the rack. That way, if someone does try to swipe a chip, they are going to need to grab two. And, I will notice right away that one has been pinched. Greens go in the same rack, but in the righthand side of the trough, again white chip on the outside...... I can't believe people call me anal.

I do the same thing. I find that keeping a white chip on the outside helps protect the more valuable chips inside. Plus, I use white chips to mark certain amounts of money so I know if I'm up or down.

Quote: konceptum

I do the same thing. I find that keeping a white chip on the outside helps protect the more valuable chips inside. Plus, I use white chips to mark certain amounts of money so I know if I'm up or down.

This comment reminded me of an excerpt from Tom Breitling's book. Tom was a very young casino owner (early 30's) in 2004 who bought the Golden Nugget from MGM-MIRAGE in Jan 2004. He and his partner decided to bring back high stakes unlimited gambling to attract whales. The problem was that they didn't have the deep pockets of a major corporation like WYNN resorts. They were at the mercy of some of these whales who had more money than they did. A vivid excerpt from his book is online and I urge you to read it. The protagonist is a whale (who Tom clearly dislikes) that he has nicknamed Mr. Royalty.

Quote: Breitling

The sloppy mountain grew higher and wider. The mountain was what made Mr. Royalty scary. Most people stack their chips in neat piles. They like to know exactly how much they’ve got. They want to have their money near them, under their control, in a secure pile. Most people are not only scared to lose, Johnny D. will tell you. They’re also scared to win.

Mr. Royalty was fearless. He wasn’t holding anything back. Not only was he smart enough to know the exact value of all the chips in front of him, but he wanted them in play. A fearless gambler is the one who strikes fear in the heart of the House.

Quote: konceptum

Somehow, I doubt it. At the time, I had less than $100 in chips in front of me. I had been losing, and I don't think I looked like someone who had tons of money. Further, while I said she was attractive, I think I should have clarified that she was attractive TO ME. It's almost as if someone who knew me really well, went out and found a girl that would appeal to me in the things I like, and sent her over to me as a joke. Seriously. Not that she couldn't have been a working girl, but she just didn't really match what I think of as being a working girl.

I do the same thing. I find that keeping a white chip on the outside helps protect the more valuable chips inside. Plus, I use white chips to mark certain amounts of money so I know if I'm up or down.

I also use white chips to divide up my bank roll into increments of $100. Helps me to see when I've doubled, and if the table goes cold, when to walk away. I play with reds so I'm not too worried about anyone ripping me off, especially at an Indian Casino with the majority of people playing there in their 60's or older.

Quote: derik999

I also use white chips to divide up my bank roll into increments of $100. Helps me to see when I've doubled, and if the table goes cold, when to walk away.

1. At what point do you determine a table has "gone cold"?
2. On average, how long does a table stay "cold", before becoming "hot" again?

If you determine a table has "gone cold", should you:
1. walk away
2. switch to the don't side
3. wait for a time equal to the answer to question 2, above, and then start betting again
4. increase your bets in the belief that the table is now "due" to become hot again?

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: goatcabin

1. At what point do you determine a table has "gone cold"?
2. On average, how long does a table stay "cold", before becoming "hot" again?

If you determine a table has "gone cold", should you:
1. walk away
2. switch to the don't side
3. wait for a time equal to the answer to question 2, above, and then start betting again
4. increase your bets in the belief that the table is now "due" to become hot again?

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Well after I threw my Nevada breakfast I don't think anyone got in double digits for the rest of the time I was there, which was several hours and by that time the table was vacated. The BJ table is next to the Craps table so I paid attention to the rolls.

As far as tables being hot and cold, I don't believe tables are due to be either, I just refer to it as such given the short span I was playing. ;)

If my bankroll is decimated and I'm looking towards the ATM when only 15 minutes have passed then for me it's cold. This has happened more often than not when I've played.

Quote: derik999

If my bankroll is decimated and I'm looking towards the ATM when only 15 minutes have passed then for me it's cold. This has happened more often than not when I've played.

Given your strategy you described on another thread, I'm not surprised. Your "pass + across" betting strategy based on a $200 stake is bound to put you out of the game often. That doesn't necessarily make it TOO MUCH variance; that's up to you. Since you are on a $.50 table, you could bet $3 place 6/8 and get $3.50 payoff, etc. Obviously, that would keep you in the game longer. It would also reduces your winnings in good sessions. Or, you could start at the lower level and only increase your bets if you get ahead by $100 or so. There are lots of ways to "tweak" the graph of possible outcomes, but they always result in the expectation being edge * action.
Cheers,
Alan Shank