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Paigowdan
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December 1st, 2012 at 1:45:28 PM permalink
Shufflemaster’s new House Money BJ side bet went live at Fiesta Henderson.

Interesting stuff: Basically, and as many of you know, it’s a side bet where you can use your side bet winnings to press your main Blackjack bet if you want, or you can just pocket the winnings, as the side bet is processed BEFORE the hit-and-stand stage of the Blackjack game. You win the side bet if your initial two BJ cards are connectors/a two-card straight, or a pair. This provides a real lot of gambling excitement to the play of the game, it’s a very eye-catching innovation.

Payouts are listed Here.

The House edge is only about 2.6% when you properly cap your main Blackjack bets, which is generally pretty obvious to do: Any House Money that is initially won on hands such as 65, or 55 pairs/ten pairs, or a value of 19+, then always cap the main Blackjack bet, as you’re in the cat-bird seat with a very strong Blackjack hand. If the EV of main hand is negative, then always pocket the side win, and do not cap the main bet. The house edge rises to 23% or so if you NEVER raise on your main Blackjack bet, but that is NOT what this bet is about!

Then hit and stand as you normally would. The strategy for the game really very straightforward Blackjack common sense, and is listed in the same link above.
The game went live at Fiesta a day or so ago on our main 24/7 Blackjack game in the front of our main pit, right next to our main Roulette wheel. It replaced Joe Centrone’s Bust it!, which is also a strong BJ side bet that consistently got a ton of action. So this install is a strong vote of confidence for House Money.

Players’ reactions were mixed so far, probably because the bet is very novel. Some ‘got it’ very quickly, and saw the juice in it. In this regard, being able to press your bet when in a very strong early position is very exciting, kind of like being able to bet four times on your Play Bet in Ultimate Texas Hold ‘em with strong hole cards - just a real Power Raise situation that gamblers love. With a weak hand, you just pocket the side bet winnings. Quite a deal.

Other players, (of the “what’s this new-fangled thing here?!” Attitude), kind of sniffed at it, like a cat sniffing at some new cat food in a dish, and ignored it. Exactly like that, but in human form. You almost wanted to say, “Sweetheart, it’s fresh Tuna, you gotta try it and see!” - witnessing this. What are you going to do, but let time take its time…

Some players - a surprising number - misplayed the winnings. You’d see a player with a 3-2 two-card straight press the main bet against a dealer’s 9, thinking, “it’s House money, right?? Always press….” Other players with a 10-9 two-card straight would pocket the winnings against a dealer’s 5, thinking “I gotta protect it, as I’m already risking my main bet…” WTF, really!

I have to say that the best play house edge of less than 3% is an absolute bargain on a side bet, but that player errors will cause a de facto increase in house edge, exactly like the “UTH effect,” but less severe.

I’m impressed with the bet, I really am. As a game design guy, I will call a great game idea simply this, - and a weak one simply that, - and WHY it may act in such a fashion – always being clear as to the possible reasons, the benefits, and demerits.

IMO, this side bet offers:
- great gambling excitement or ”juice,”
- it doesn’t change the main basic strategy at all, a huge plus;
- it follows Blackjack common-sense as to when to raise the main bet or to pocket the winnings,
- is very tough to profitably count, though,
- and it has a very fair and low house edge.

Looks like a winner.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paradigm
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December 1st, 2012 at 3:24:27 PM permalink
I too like House Money particularly due to the fact that it isn't an instant resolution bet after the intial cards are dealt. Yes you win or lose on your first two cards, but then have the option to continue the "journey" of the bet until the end of the hand. With a 23% hit rate, the players will see enough winners to stay engaged.

I think this "journey" concept is going to be what separates new succcessful side bets in the future. The market place is full of initial deal resolution types of bets in every hit rate/pay table variety. And I think players are bored with them and participation drops.

I believe one of the reasons that the "bust" side bets are so popular right now is that they offer a journey to resolution at the end of the hand. Player suspense and anticipation are entertaining and so player participation follows.

Dan, what is the minimum limit on this side bet? I would imagine it is run like 21+3 in that it is a $5 min bet on a $5 min BJ table.
Paigowdan
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December 1st, 2012 at 3:35:56 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

...I think this "journey" concept is going to be what separates new succcessful side bets in the future. The market place is full of initial deal resolution types of bets in every hit rate/pay table variety. And I think players are bored with them and participation drops.


Part of the game's very many strong points, and part of Roger's diabolical genius on this one, very "UTH-like" so to speak.

Quote: Paradigm

I believe one of the reasons that the "bust" side bets are so popular right now is that they offer a journey to resolution at the end of the hand. Player suspense and anticipation are entertaining and so player participation follows.


Very true; However, "early-finish" BJ side bets like Lucky ladies and 21+3 also allow this two-stage resolution, but where the main hand BJ bet is simply the last to resolve. Even the early-resolve side bets make BJ a two-stage game.

So what sets House Money apart is when the upfront House Money bet resolves, you can then "accelerate" it, by merging it into the Main bet, and thereby "supercharging" the action juice on the main bet: Let's say you bet $10 on House money, and $20 on the main BJ bet. you hit a J-10 suited "straight flush" for $40, - so you add $50 to the $20 main bet's 20 hand value - a strong hand! - and you now have almost a "black-action" main bet that is a 20! Forget about getting a suited AK blackjack!!!! Jumping from a dime to black action in a moment's time on the very same hand - is a heart-pounding exciting jump bet that is just from "house money!" A very exciting bet. An integrated Blackjack parlay on the same deal! Never done before!

Quote: paradigm

Dan, what is the minimum limit on this side bet? I would imagine it is run like 21+3 in that it is a $5 min bet on a $5 min BJ table.


White action, $1 min, up to a quarter, I believe. I was on Pai Gow last night, and swing shift is awaiting the formal intro; only the dealers on that game got the lesson directly from floor supervision. Dealers seen totally fine with the bet.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paradigm
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December 1st, 2012 at 4:49:07 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Very true; However, "early-finish" BJ side bets like Lucky ladies and 21+3 also allow this two-stage resolution, but where the main hand BJ bet is simply the last to resolve. Even the early-resolve side bets make BJ a two-stage game


Agree Dan, but having both main and side bet money in play until the end of the hand is better IMHO. And as you pointed out, with HM, there is an acceleration to the side bet action as well.

I may have to leave you at the dice/EZPGP table and venture over to the HM BJ table the next time I am at Fiesta :-).

HM Baccarat wasn't nearly as intriguing to me at G2E as HM BJ. Only having a 3-1 payout I believe and never a chance to get more than an even money accelerator on the main game. With that AK or any suited BJ, getting the even money action on the first resolution and then 3:2 action when capped on the main bet makes HM BJ significantly better than HM Bacc (that and the 9:1 high payout).
Paigowdan
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December 1st, 2012 at 5:28:06 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Agree Dan, but having both main and side bet money in play until the end of the hand is better IMHO. And as you pointed out, with HM, there is an acceleration to the side bet action as well.


Yes - having more money in action until the end of the round is more "juice" - and is where HM can excel. But also of consideration is the interest in the bet's mechanism itself. Some like the pairs/connectors aspect. And If you like three card poker, then you may like 21+3 more. But HM's parlay is the real thing.

Quote: paradigm

I may have to leave you at the dice/EZPGP table and venture over to the HM BJ table the next time I am at Fiesta :-).


Sure, that's good too. My last day dealing before retiring from it all is Monday.

Quote: Paradigm

HM Baccarat wasn't nearly as intriguing to me at G2E as HM BJ. Only having a 3-1 payout I believe and never a chance to get more than an even money accelerator on the main game. With that AK or any suited BJ, getting the even money action on the first resolution and then 3:2 action when capped on the main bet makes HM BJ significantly better than HM Bacc (that and the 9:1 high payout).


HM really seems to work really well with Blackjack.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AcesAndEights
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December 1st, 2012 at 6:37:53 PM permalink
Do they let the dealers physically stack the side bet winnings on top of the main bet? I played at one of the early installs here in WA state, and due to WA state gaming regulations, the main bet CANNOT BE CAPPED, even by the dealer/house. So there are different physical semantics...if you pocket the money, they push it out of the circle, if you want to bet it, they just leave it there and pay it off in another stack along with the main bet. So I'm curious how it works in NV.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
98Clubs
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December 2nd, 2012 at 12:48:52 AM permalink
I have a question here for the math people. After seeing the WoO write-up on this side bet, what is the average winning payout of this side-bet (ignore losses for now)?
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Wizard
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December 2nd, 2012 at 2:21:36 PM permalink
I have an unconfirmed report it is at the Monte Carlo as well.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
winmonkeyspit3
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December 2nd, 2012 at 2:49:16 PM permalink
Scenario Question:

Let's say I'm playing a dime on the BJ hand and a dime on the side bet. I hit the AK suited for the 90 dollar pay day on the side bet. I now add the winnings to my hand, which is a blackjack. Is this 90 dollar side bet winning then paid at 3:2 for a total win of 135 whenever I get the AK suited blackjack?
AcesAndEights
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December 2nd, 2012 at 3:17:38 PM permalink
Quote: winmonkeyspit3

Scenario Question:

Let's say I'm playing a dime on the BJ hand and a dime on the side bet. I hit the AK suited for the 90 dollar pay day on the side bet. I now add the winnings to my hand, which is a blackjack. Is this 90 dollar side bet winning then paid at 3:2 for a total win of 135 whenever I get the AK suited blackjack?


Yes, that's the most enticing payout. In DJTeddyBear's initial post about House Money he described this exact scenario.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Paigowdan
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December 2nd, 2012 at 3:20:54 PM permalink
Quote: winmonkeyspit3

Scenario Question:

Let's say I'm playing a dime on the BJ hand and a dime on the side bet. I hit the AK suited for the 90 dollar pay day on the side bet. I now add the winnings to my hand, which is a blackjack. Is this 90 dollar side bet winning then paid at 3:2 for a total win of 135 whenever I get the AK suited blackjack?


Yes, it is 3:2 on the parlay with AK suited. If a player wishes to parlay the full winnings to the main blackjack bet, then the whole new amount on the main bet pays 3:2. Pacman can chime in, but that is the documentation and understanding.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
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December 3rd, 2012 at 5:28:58 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Yes, that's the most enticing payout. In DJTeddyBear's initial post about House Money he described this exact scenario.

Quite true.

That's EXCATLY what made add the adjective to the thread title:
"House Money - Friggin' FANTASTIC!"
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
AcesAndEights
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December 3rd, 2012 at 11:48:57 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Do they let the dealers physically stack the side bet winnings on top of the main bet? I played at one of the early installs here in WA state, and due to WA state gaming regulations, the main bet CANNOT BE CAPPED, even by the dealer/house. So there are different physical semantics...if you pocket the money, they push it out of the circle, if you want to bet it, they just leave it there and pay it off in another stack along with the main bet. So I'm curious how it works in NV.


Dan or any other dealers/Pacman, still wondering about this aspect of the game in Nevada.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Switch
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December 3rd, 2012 at 12:31:50 PM permalink
In Nevada the dealer can only cap the bet if the player has placed a tip for their blackjack bet as well as the House money bet. The dealer will mimic the player i.e. if the player doesn't cap then the dealer will just take the winnings and if the player caps then the dealer will cap also.
AcesAndEights
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December 3rd, 2012 at 7:50:24 PM permalink
Quote: Switch

In Nevada the dealer can only cap the bet if the player has placed a tip for their blackjack bet as well as the House money bet. The dealer will mimic the player i.e. if the player doesn't cap then the dealer will just take the winnings and if the player caps then the dealer will cap also.


I think you misunderstood, my original question didn't have anything to do with dealer tips - but just about the protocol during the main course of the side bet. The dealers here are prohibited from moving the player's house money bet, and winnings, into the circle for the main bet. So if the player wants to "stack it" it still sits there in the side bet circle until the conclusion of the main hand, and then is either paid or collected accordingly. Pacman said in an earlier thread this was due to a peculiarity in the WA state gaming regs, so I was wondering how it works in NV. Seems like the game has more "pizzazz" when the winnings can be physically "stacked."
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Paigowdan
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December 3rd, 2012 at 8:31:36 PM permalink
Dealer operates all aspects of the bet once the round of play goes live, including moving the winnings to press the main bet.
The layout has both the paytable and the advisory on this: "Dealer handles pressing" - however it's paraphrased.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AcesAndEights
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December 3rd, 2012 at 9:10:56 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Dealer operates all aspects of the bet once the round of play goes live, including moving the winnings to press the main bet.
The layout has both the paytable and the advisory on this: "Dealer handles pressing" - however it's paraphrased.


Cool - thanks.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Paradigm
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December 4th, 2012 at 4:29:02 PM permalink
Dan, there was a question at Fiesta on the House Money procedure when the player had AK suited and the dealer is showing an Ace. The side bet wins 9-1 instantly, but the night Switch and I were there, the dealer and shift seemed to think that they would not offer the player the opportunity to stack their HM 10 units on the main bet and then make an "Insurance" decision.

I believe they indicated that the bet is paid 9-1 and pushed back to the player. That seemed dead wrong to me, but since it didn't happen while we were there, I didn't attempt to correct the answer they gave.

Seems like the correct answer would be to allow the player to cap their bet with the 10 units from HM side wager win, ask if they want insurance/even money on the entire amount, then have the dealer check for blackjack in the normal manner.

I know Monday was your last day on the job (Congrats and I am happy to say I was able to play several hands of EZ PGP with the inventor dealing the game prior to retirement), but if you are in at Fiesta and can find out if they have that straightened out (or if their way is correct), that would be interesting.
Buzzard
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December 4th, 2012 at 5:01:43 PM permalink
Gee I asked Pacman this on an earlier thread, but I forget what the answer was. LOL
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Buzzard
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December 4th, 2012 at 5:07:29 PM permalink
The dealer checks for blackjack before resolving the House Money wagers.

If a player has AK suited and the dealer has blackjack, the player would win 9 to 1 on his HM bet. He cannot insure it and take 9 to 1 and then 1 to 1.

Sorry for the confusion.

--Roger


Once again " Never give a sucker an even break" is the reigning philosophy.

In the future I would suggest Switch remain loyal to the brand and play Free Bet !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Paradigm
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December 4th, 2012 at 5:15:55 PM permalink
Thanks for clarification Buzz, that sounds like what they were trying to explain at Fiesta, but it didn't come out quite as succinctly :-)
AcesAndEights
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December 4th, 2012 at 5:21:13 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

The dealer checks for blackjack before resolving the House Money wagers.

If a player has AK suited and the dealer has blackjack, the player would win 9 to 1 on his HM bet. He cannot insure it and take 9 to 1 and then 1 to 1.

Sorry for the confusion.

--Roger


If the dealer doesn't have a natural, shouldn't the player then, at that point, be allowed to cap the bet for the full 3-2 payoff on all the monies? I can sort of understand not offering insurance/even money on the whole amount, but once the dealer has checked and there isn't a natural, seems lame to prohibit the stacking at that point.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Buzzard
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December 4th, 2012 at 8:10:10 PM permalink
You can indeed get 3/2 on house money bet.

If the dealer has an Ace or a 10 value showing, he’ll check for blackjack before paying winning
House Money wagers.
a. If he has blackjack, he will pay the winning House Money bets, but the players will not
have the option of leaving their House Money bonus wager winnings on the House
Money bet spot. At that point the dealer will follow the casino’s standard blackjack rules.
b. If he doesn’t have blackjack, the dealer will work clockwise from his left to his right. He
will pay the winning House Money wagers and then ask the players if they want to leave
all or a portion of the proceeds (the win plus the original House Money wager) given to
them on the House money bet spot. Players may elect to leave none or any percentage up
to 100% of the House Money proceeds. Once all House Money wagers have been
resolved the dealer will follow the casino’s standard blackjack rules.

The second sentence under b is ambiguous.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Perdition
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October 13th, 2013 at 11:32:49 PM permalink
House Money sidebet was just put in Chumash Casino in Santa Ynez, CA. Is pretty much the same as listed expect the max side bet is 25 dollars and if you get a Suited AK, the BJ pays 2-1 instead of 3-2. Probably won't matter to most but figured I would give the heads up.
Pokeraddict
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October 14th, 2013 at 12:45:40 AM permalink
While this thread has been bumped, is the game live anywhere in LV right now?
Ibeatyouraces
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October 14th, 2013 at 1:05:19 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Perdition
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October 14th, 2013 at 12:50:28 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

While this thread has been bumped, is the game live anywhere in LV right now?



From what the shuffle man said, it is at the following casinos:

Cannery

Club Fortune

Venetian

Palazzo

Don't know how they adapted it, I guess all that stuff is up to the individual casino.

Sadly still no news of 3 card Mulligan making a return :(
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