DeflateGate
Quote: mickeycrimmAll the news outlets are saying the Deflatriots cheated but how does a deflated football favor Brady and his receivers more than Luck and his receivers?
It is easier to grip the ball, especially in rain, if the air pressure is on the low side.
Quote: texasplumrBut don't both teams use the same ball?
No, each team supplies their own balls to use when on offense. This is done in college and high school too.
Quote: texasplumrThanks! I didn't know that. I now see the basis for the argument.
Yeah, me too. I thought they used the same ball. You learn something new every day.
Quote: texasplumrThanks! I didn't know that. I now see the basis for the argument.
They're supposedly checked by the officials several hours before kickoff but then given back to the team (if I understand the process correctly). I really don't understand the logic behind that. I would think they would be locked down and accessed only by the ball boys assigned to the respective sideline.
The other thing, I don't know that I've heard an exact figure of how low the balls were. It's one thing if they went from 12.5 psi to 10.5 psi, a whole other thing if they went from 12.5 psi to 12.2 psi. In the latter case, I'm guessing game use and temperature could create a small drop in pressure.
I know Patriot haters are crying 'cheat', but I'll reserve judgement.
Quote: texasplumrThanks! I didn't know that. I now see the basis for the argument.
Yes, this is because they want to allow each team the ability to set up the ball the way they want it (primarily for the qb) as long as it's set up within the allowable tolerances (air pressure being one of them). Some qb's like balls that have a few days of practice on them allowing the new ball sheen to be removed. Some have gone as far as to soak the footballs in water for a period of time the day before the game because they believe it improves grip.
In any case, the point is that unlike baseball (and even then the baseballs are rubbed up by the umpire crew before the game) where every ball is standard, the NFL wants each team to be able to get the football prepared in a way that best suits them within the allowable tolerances, which is what is coming under question here.
Quote: MidwestAPThey're supposedly checked by the officials several hours before kickoff but then given back to the team (if I understand the process correctly). I really don't understand the logic behind that. I would think they would be locked down and accessed only by the ball boys assigned to the respective sideline.
The other thing, I don't know that I've heard an exact figure of how low the balls were. It's one thing if they went from 12.5 psi to 10.5 psi, a whole other thing if they went from 12.5 psi to 12.2 psi. In the latter case, I'm guessing game use and temperature could create a small drop in pressure.
I know Patriot haters are crying 'cheat', but I'll reserve judgement.
I understand from news reports last night that all but one of the balls was two pounds low. A significant difference. The report also mentioned that the pressure of some of the balls was tested during the game. I wonder why the low pressure wasn't mentioned at that time?
Quote: AyecarumbaI understand from news reports last night that all but one of the balls was two pounds low. A significant difference. The report also mentioned that the pressure of some of the balls was tested during the game. I wonder why the low pressure wasn't mentioned at that time?
Yes, I have heard the two pound difference too, but when Belicheck made mention of the 3/10 of a psi difference in his press conference, and gave several examples, it made me wonder if he knows something more than is being reported.
As I understand it, the balls were determined to be low at halftime and reinflated for the second half.
No matter what happened or didn't happen, it wasn't the difference maker in the result of the game.
Belichick acted as if any considerations of how the ball was prepared were solely Brady's.
Given Belichick's control freak makeup, this seems laughable.
Belichick has over a dozen other offensive players (backs, receivers, tight ends & reserves) who have to hang onto the ball,especially when wet & they have issues:
"Ridley is the best running back on the Patriots, despite the fumbling issue."
Anyone who ever played youth or high school knows the more you can sink your fingertips into the ball, the easier it is to hang onto-especially wet.
So are we to believe Belichick knew he had a fumbling issue, coincidentally the balls are deflated , & he knew nothing about it?
Belichick may track his player's bowel movements -it's ludicrous to think he gave no thought to this issue.
The reality is that if Brady, as a first time offender (personally) takes the fall he may get a game suspension next season.
If Belichick, with his priors (incl the largest fine in NFL history) gets caught- he'd likely grt suspended at least a year.
As someone on TV made the analogy yesterday, the equipment guys are simply Downing and Dawson, Brady is Kendrick, and Belichick is Jessup. The question is if Kendrick ordered the Code Red on his own or on the order (or acknowledgement) of Jessup.
Anybody care to do the math? Would the air have to be so hot for this to have happened that the ball would have spontaneously combusted?
Who's to say that it results would not have been different? It's a game of inches, and having a better grip to throw or catch the ball could have been the deciding factor in the early scores. In addition a team down by two scores plays very differently than one down by three.
Brady should be suspended from the Superbowl, and fined.
There are also reports that the Ravens tipped off the Colts and possibly the league as well.Quote: beachbumbabsI heard something today that the low pressure was noticed by the guy who intercepted the ball towards the end of the first half. No interception, nobody knows about the balls being underinflated outside the Pats. So I'm guessing there was cheating going on.
In fairness, I should disclose that I don't care for Bill Belichick. He just rubs me the wrong way. But I still try to look at things with an open mind. But here's the facts: He has been caught cheating at least once before, maybe twice depending on how you look at things.
He is a guy that likes to gain an advantage. Some things within the rules and very smart on his part. He was the first coach I know of that always deferred when winning the coin flip. Putting his defense on the field first. The advantage is that if you can possess the ball last at the end of the first half and score on that possession and then get the ball to start the second half and score on that possession, you can quickly open up a big lead in the second half. New England des this to perfection most of the time and now many if not most other coaches have adopted his 'defer' approach.
To me the unusual formations thing that Baltimore complained about in this years playoff game falls in the same category. New, and innovated and WITHIN the rules. I give coach Belichick credit for finding new ideas and concepts within the rules. That's great.
But 'spygate' was outside the rules. It was clearly written that you can not do that and deflating the footballs below 12.5 pound of pressure is as well. So, my conclusion is that coach Belichicks desire to gain an advantage doesn't always fall within the rules.
The fact that the balls were checked before the game by officials and later 11 of the 12 balls were deflated below allowable limits says to me that this was no accident. Someone deliberately did this. Someone knowingly broke the rules and although it seems a minor deal, that deliberately breaking the rules makes it a bigger deal to me. Brady and Belichick were not very believable to me.
I completely understand why teams want to allow their players to break in the balls the way they want as long as they fall within prescribed parameters. I don't see this being changed because the teams would want it (which make up the NFL), and the players union wants it, for the same reason, it makes the team and player more effective.
What I don't understand is once the team turns the balls over to the refs for inspection, why they are ever given back to the team before the game? If anything, I think that will change.
Quote: beachbumbabsI heard something today that the low pressure was noticed by the guy who intercepted the ball towards the end of the first half. No interception, nobody knows about the balls being underinflated outside the Pats. So I'm guessing there was cheating going on.
Nope.
Some news outlets did initially report this erroneously.
Quote: mickeycrimmLet me guess. The one ball that wasn't deflated was for field goals. Right?
Actually, the kicking balls are from a completely different pool of balls, which is shared by both teams.
You can read about it in the NFL rulebook.
Quote: kewljThe other thing about this situation is that I learned this week how the balls are handled. Why should the teams, QB's, kickers and equipment managers even have access to the balls in the first place. The league should control the balls at all times. The idea that QB's can break balls in to their liking or inflate them to their liking as in this case is non-sense. The league should control the balls and when the ref puts an official regulation ball in play that is the ball the QB plays with. That seems the fair way to handle things.
There should be ONE standard for ball inflation. An official from the league should confirm that ALL balls are set to that standard. No TEAM shoud be responsible in any way for the balls.
On a separate note, there should not be separate balls for kicking. If it is slightly more difficult to kick a regular ball, then so be it.
Quote: SOOPOOThere should be ONE standard for ball inflation. An official from the league should confirm that ALL balls are set to that standard. No TEAM shoud be responsible in any way for the balls.
On a separate note, there should not be separate balls for kicking. If it is slightly more difficult to kick a regular ball, then so be it.
I agree with one standard range for inflation (which there is) as well as some other attributes. I also agree that once the balls are checked by the officiating crew, they should be locked down and not accessible by the teams except on the field of play.
I don't necessarily agree that each team needs to play with a ball that has been prepared only one way. And I highly doubt that the teams nor the players do either. There is all kinds of equipment (helmets, pads, cleats, kicking tee's, etc) that differs from team to team, so why would the ball be any different? Again, all of these things need to fall within established tolerances.
For example, in auto racing, all the car set-up's are slightly different based on the driver, the track, the anticipated weather, and many other things. In most forms of racing that I'm familiar with, the governing body establishes tolerance thresholds for the different variables. There use to be (and maybe it still exists) a series of races every year with drivers from the different types of racing that all use cars that were identically set up. If this is what you are proposing for football, then I guess we can agree to disagree.
In football, I think a small part of the innovation, strategy and/or competitive advantage comes from having variety in some of these aspects of the game as long as they fall within established rules or tolerances
I agree. What the Pats did is akin to corking or pine tarring a bat in baseball. It may be the player's bat, but modifications have to fall within the established specifications.Quote: MidwestAPI agree with one standard range for inflation (which there is) as well as some other attributes. I also agree that once the balls are checked by the officiating crew, they should be locked down and not accessible by the teams except on the field of play.
I don't necessarily agree that each team needs to play with a ball that has been prepared only one way. And I highly doubt that the teams nor the players do either. There is all kinds of equipment (helmets, pads, cleats, kicking tee's, etc) that differs from team to team, so why would the ball be any different? Again, all of these things need to fall within established tolerances.
For example, in auto racing, all the car set-up's are slightly different based on the driver, the track, the anticipated weather, and many other things. In most forms of racing that I'm familiar with, the governing body establishes tolerance thresholds for the different variables. There use to be (and maybe it still exists) a series of races every year with drivers from the different types of racing that all use cars that were identically set up. If this is what you are proposing for football, then I guess we can agree to disagree.
In football, I think a small part of the innovation, strategy and/or competitive advantage comes from having variety in some of these aspects of the game as long as they fall within established rules or tolerances
I recall Marty McSorley of the Los Angeles Kings hockey club getting penalized because the curve in the blade of his stick exceeded the 1/2" spec in the rulebook. Playing short handed cost the team the match.
There should be a penalty to Tom Brady. I think he should at least be suspended from the Superbowl.
There is no investigation.
Goodell is a wimp.
Therefore, no punishment for cheating.
Sad.
Quote: AyecarumbaThere should be a penalty to Tom Brady. I think he should at least be suspended from the Superbowl.
I think that's ridiculous, unless they have proof that he was culpable.
I realize the NFL is basically creating its own justice system and that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to league disciplinary decisions. But there's no way to prove any one individual intentionally did this.
Now regardless of our collective opinions, the truth is the NFL wouldn't suspend him even if they had video evidence of him personally deflating the balls. Because of money. But that's neither here nor there...
Quote: MidwestAPI'd be stunned if anyone was suspended for the Super Bowl, not in the league's best interest. I'd be surprised if anything in terms of any possible findings or punishment is announced until after the game. I guess suspensions are possible at that time, certainly fines. But, why not hit them at an institutional level with draft pick reductions to send a message that the team needs to have better oversight of their actions.
I believe loss of draft picks is the proscribed penalty for this violation anyway. I bet that's all that happens.
Unless you take an entire draft away from them (way too harsh), you could never fine anyone enough to make a difference. I believe there is precedent of going after salary cap room, that could round out losing a first round draft pick.
Quote: SOOPOO
On a separate note, there should not be separate balls for kicking. If it is slightly more difficult to kick a regular ball, then so be it.
It would be much more difficult because of all the crap that gets on it from being played during the game and deflation from the game and things of that nature. That's why those balls are supposed to be brand spanking new. Kickers and Punters already have enough variables to deal with, trust me. A clump of dirt on the ball could completely impact the way the ball behaves after the Kicker or Punter makes contact with the ball.
It's not like being a QB or receiver where you use your hands to throw or catch the ball, the kicking game is a blunt object striking a blunt object, so there's no way to adjust for a ball covered in dirt.
Quote: onenickelmiracleTemperature could affect inflation. Could the ball be warm at minimum standard then lose inflation as it cools in the cold weather? Wouldn't be cheating if the ball wasn't messed with. perhaps my theory doesn't apply or wouldn't work, I'm not sure.
I'm not going to do the math here, but if you use the ideal gas law I believe it will show that the maximum possible temperature drop would not reduce the pressure by 2 full PSI.
Wasn't sure but did doubt it thinking this would be part of common sense if true.Quote: AcesAndEightsI'm not going to do the math here, but if you use the ideal gas law I believe it will show that the maximum possible temperature drop would not reduce the pressure by 2 full PSI.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI'm not going to do the math here, but if you use the ideal gas law I believe it will show that the maximum possible temperature drop would not reduce the pressure by 2 full PSI.
You really don't need to use the whole ideal gas law here. If the temp got down to 5C (278K) from 22C (295K) inside (a very generous range)... the percent decrease in pressure from temperature decrease is 100% - 278K/295K × 100 = 5.76%.
It would be less than a psi at best.
Quote: tringlomaneYou really don't need to use the whole ideal gas law here. If the temp got down to 5C (278K) from 22C (295K) inside (a very generous range)... the percent decrease in pressure from temperature decrease is 100% - 278K/295K × 100 = 5.76%.
It would be less than a psi at best.
Working backwards from your formula, suppose they used 59C (138.2 F) air to inflate the ball, the outside temperature was 0C, and 12.75psi was within the valid range. That would result in 100% - 273/332 * 100 = 17.8% which would give a final psi of 10.48.
The question is, is 59c too hot? Surely the inspectors would be able to feel that on the outside of the ball?
JUST THIS WEEK??? I assumed you were an expert long ago.Quote: kewljThe other thing about this situation is that I learned this week how the balls are handled..
Quote: wudgedWorking backwards from your formula, suppose they used 59C (138.2 F) air to inflate the ball, the outside temperature was 0C, and 12.75psi was within the valid range. That would result in 100% - 273/332 * 100 = 17.8% which would give a final psi of 10.48.Quote: tringlomaneYou really don't need to use the whole ideal gas law here. If the temp got down to 5C (278K) from 22C (295K) inside (a very generous range)... the percent decrease in pressure from temperature decrease is 100% - 278K/295K × 100 = 5.76%.
It would be less than a psi at best.
The question is, is 59c too hot? Surely the inspectors would be able to feel that on the outside of the ball?
I don't want to get into predicting how much the temperature change might change the air pressure, since there are a number of other variables I couldn't reasonably estimate (such as the elasticity of the ball bladder and cover.) However, I will point out that if you are trying to use the ideal gas equation to make an estimate of the pressure change, you must use the absolute pressures, not the gage pressures, just as you must use absolute temperatures.
Making just this adjustment to wudged's calculation would mean the 17.8% reduction in absolute temperature would lead to a 17.8% reduction in absolute pressure or 17.8% * (12.75 + 14.7) = 4.89 psi reduction (a reduction in the absolute pressure as well as in the gage pressure.) For triglomane's estimated absolute temperature reduction of 5.76% and assuming the same starting gage pressure of 12.75 psi that wudged assumed, this would lead to 5.76% * (12.75 + 14.7) = 1.58 psi pressure reduction.
Quote: VenthusWhat do people think are the chances of a conclusion damaging to the Patriots, relevant to the Super Bowl? I've heard grumblings about Brady being suspended from the game, which would would probably make an early Seahawks bet to be quite favorable.
I don't think any league action will happen before the Super Bowl, and most certainly not against Brady. It's not in the league's best interest financially to do so.
Quote: AxelWolfJUST THIS WEEK??? I assumed you were an expert long ago.
Yes, just this week, I learned how the NFL balls were handled. I am an expert and long ago learned how MY balls are handled if that is what you are alluding to. I can teach you if you would like. ;)
