rxwine
rxwine
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December 31st, 2013 at 8:44:44 PM permalink
Quote: LarryS

Heck I dont even think a horse knows where the finish line is......let alone have a will to hit the finish line first.

You cant train dogs to run a race without the mechanical rabbit....and most people think dogs are intellegent.




I remember once reading about a guy and his friends trying to prove to each other who was more macho, and one ended up cutting off his own head with a chainsaw. Human intelligence?

Actually you can find people using their intelligence like that every day in the news. Sometimes you have to ask, who is really smarter? Maybe you should not be so hard on those so-called "dumb" animals.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
LarryS
LarryS
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December 31st, 2013 at 9:06:35 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

Its pretty ridiculous to think animals don't have feelings. Why would that area of the brain ONLY exist in humans and not other species in the animal kingdom?



I agree, horses have acute feelings...... of pain when they are whiped

But do horses feel insulted, ....nope, do they feel dissapointed when they dont win a race.....nope......Do they feel disrespected.....no

do they feel a gnawing yearning need to win the next race?.....NO.... do they even know if there is going to be a next race.....NO

do they even know what "winning a race:" means?

WEARING BLINKERS,,,,do horses know if there are 2 horses way ahead of them that they cant see or way to their extreme right passing them???....no..

if there are 2 horses way ahead of them do they feel they won the race if they nose out the horse next to them for 5th place?......no

do they feel a glowing sense of satisfaction when they win a race....no...cause we havent really established that they understand what winning a race really means or if they accomplished it. Do they view the photo finish picture to see if they won?..OR DO THEY JUST ASSUME IT.

And if another horse tells them that they saw the photo finish pciture and they didnt win....is the horse embarrassed?

We make up these manmade conditions for these animals then attach human traits to these animals giving them way too much credit,

As smart as dogs are...none of them know they just won a race when chasing a mechanical rabbit. And I contend that horses are in the same situation....they are not wired like humans to feel a sense of accomplishment for "coming in first"....or even understanding what it means to "come in first"..or better yet to even recognize that they have in fact crossed a finsih line before other horses...or even understand the concept of a finsih line.
LarryS
LarryS
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December 31st, 2013 at 9:11:28 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I remember once reading about a guy and his friends trying to prove to each other who was more macho, and one ended up cutting off his own head with a chainsaw. Human intelligence?

Actually you can find people using their intelligence like that every day in the news. Sometimes you have to ask, who is really smarter? Maybe you should not be so hard on those so-called "dumb" animals.



Not hard on the animals...just hard on the humans that beat them in order to get them to go fast...and then proclaim that the animal had a great need to win, to be a champion....BECAUSUE WE ALL KNOW HORSES DONT WANT TO HANG OUT WITH OTHER HORSES IN THE MEADOWS......they all want to show their heart of a champion by being beaten and coerced into "winning" a race.

Giving horses the intellectual power to want to win, takes the heat off the jockey and trainers that beat the hell out of them in order to coerce the "need to be a champion" into of them.

In the end they just have the need to survive. Just be a horse. without having iner goals and dreams of being a legend....like humans do.

In the end horses dont have "the heart of a champion"...they have the muscles, the lungs, the bone structure, and the physical heart..to be a superior athletic animal.
They dont have the burning desire to win like we like to think...they have the physical ability and the right jockey..just like a finely tuned race car
LarryS
LarryS
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December 31st, 2013 at 9:23:22 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I remember once reading about a guy and his friends trying to prove to each other who was more macho, and one ended up cutting off his own head with a chainsaw. Human intelligence?

Actually you can find people using their intelligence like that every day in the news. Sometimes you have to ask, who is really smarter? Maybe you should not be so hard on those so-called "dumb" animals.



Yes Charles Manson supervised the killing of people...charles manson is human...the squirrels in my back yard never killed anyone....therefore the squirrels are more intellegent than humans.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
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December 31st, 2013 at 9:47:23 PM permalink
I think to most effectively make a horse realize it should get first is to keep whipping it if it crosses the finish line with other horses in front of it. I can't think of an effective way to provide the horse with positive reinforcement immediately after winning a race so have to resort to negative reinforcement when losing the race.
LarryS
LarryS
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December 31st, 2013 at 9:54:41 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

I think to most effectively make a horse realize it should get first is to keep whipping it if it crosses the finish line with other horses in front of it. I can't think of an effective way to provide the horse with positive reinforcement immediately after winning a race so have to resort to negative reinforcement when losing the race.



that would work if the horse had a clue what winning a race entails.

all they know is that when they are beaten that they have to run as fast as they can for as long as they can till the beating stops

winning or losing is beyond them

they dont see a finish line, they dont know what a finish line is, and they have no idea what "winning " means.

so beating them after a race is equivalent to beating a puppy for pooping in the house. They havent a clue what the beating is for.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
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December 31st, 2013 at 10:01:01 PM permalink
Quote: LarryS



so beating them after a race is equivalent to beating a puppy for pooping in the house. They havent a clue what the beating is for.



Theyll know if you do it immediately. They won't if too much time has elapsed. They wont be able to associate one with the other
LarryS
LarryS
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December 31st, 2013 at 10:47:15 PM permalink
wow so you beat a horse immediately after a race and the horse will know that there was a finish line that he failed to cross before another horse, or 3 other horses. The horse would have the concept of "a race: beaten into his conciousness. The horse will understand photo finishes, The horse will understand that there was a horse 10 feet to his right nose him out. The horse understands all this because we as humans convey these simple concepts as being understandable to a horse. And therefore like a human being beaten, the horse will learn his lesson, be embarrassed, and yearn to "win" next time.

In the end if you beat a horse during the race, and also after the race, the horse has no idea why its being beaten to begin with, let alone visually see a finish line and form a goal to cross it before horses that it cant even see. Let alone understand the concept of winning or the concept of a race. All they know is that the gate opens and based on past experience they run fast or they will feel pain.

You know, there are a series of paintings of dogs playing poker....guess what....thats just humans converying human capabilities to animals...its not real..its impossible...its fiction.

you can dress 3 monkees in costumes of abe lincoln, george washington, and teddy roosevelt.....but that doesnt mean they have a clue who those people were. You can beat them all you want...but they will never understand
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
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December 31st, 2013 at 11:03:08 PM permalink
You can condition an animal to associate a particular place and its surroundings with the action it takes through positive or negative reinforcement. I just can't think of a particularly effective way of doing that with a finish line prob because idk much about horseracing in general. They won't understand what a race or finish line is. Just I better make it past this point before these other horses or else I'm gonna get punished or not rewarded.
LarryS
LarryS
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December 31st, 2013 at 11:31:39 PM permalink
Horses that wear blinkers probably wouldnt know if they were passed in the last seconds. So just because us humans saw the horse being passed and coming in second or third...doesnt mean the horse saw it. So again beating the horse assuming they saw through their eyes what we saw from our eyes is a flawed assumption.
Thinking that your dog watching tv on your lap, sees the exact same thing in the exact same colors in the exact same visual acuity as humans is a faulty assumption.
What a horse sees and mentally processes before during and after a race is not something anyone can know. Therefore beating a horse based on what you think he saw is faulty punishment.
the blinkers cut down on their peripheral vision so that they can concentrate on going straight ahead,

curious though..for those who give horses human thought processes..you would think the horse would like to know if another horse was coming up on him ..so that he could really really dig in and try to win the race. You know try extra harder knowing he is getting competition. Just like the human thought processes.
Instead they put blinkers on to keep the horse focused on just getting whipped and running as fast as he can. No need to worry the horses pretty little head with issues of up and coming competition for the lead.

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