Are Horses that "smart"

Quote: LarryS

Why would a horse who came in second 10 times in a row, and then comes in first 10 times in a row.....is it "confidence" or could it be:

it changed barns and trainers
it changes tracks...horses racing at Santa Anita...that get shipped to golden gate fields usually beat equal class horses there.
it had its diet changed
it had its vitamin supliments changed
it had its workout schedule changed
it increased muscle mass and is physically more fit from some of the above
its at the same track and class but just happens to be racing against lesser horses that he ran against in the first 10 races..or the horse is no longer racing against its regular nemesis that is just so much better


Blinkers restrict peripheral vision. If a horse is ahead of the horse with blinkers,..directly in front..the horse will see it.....or if the horse is way ahead of the horse with blinkers to the left or right....it will be within vision

But in a tight race......horses to the left or right lightly ahead of them is not seen. for example races won by a head, or a half length....the horse with blinkers may not have seen the other horse "win"

it has better sleeping accomodations and is happier because of it
it used to have a undetected gastro-intestinal issue that was discovered and fixed.

It is just amazing to me that the horse managed to beat every other horse in the 10 races leading up to his first win apart from the one directly in front of him. No amount of workout schedule, food, blinkers, tracks or any other training trick can give a horse heart, heart enough to WANT to run with the horse in front of it.

You may be absolutely right but it seems like we are trying to justify behavioral traits in horses as proof of intelligence and you are of the opinion that they have none.

Each argument, although from completely opposite sides make sense to the ones presenting it.

you are giving the horse human qualities, just as dog owners tell me when the dog licks them..the dog is showing "love".

I submit in order for the horse to have "heart"..it has to understand the concept of a finsih line, and the concept of "winning" and the concept of finishing ahead of all the horses....even the ones it cant see. A horse wearing blinkers has no clue that it nosed out a horse by a couples of inches, or a head. It cant see the finish line or even understand what it means.

Horses that throw their jockey, and just run the race without a jockey...keeps going after the finish line....they havent a clue.

Because of the weight differential, I have seen horses that throw their jockey, physically finish in first place...and just keep going and going. Obviously not stopping with the great satisfaction of crossing the finish line first.

Quote: LarryS

you are giving the horse human qualities, just as dog owners tell me when the dog licks them..the dog is showing "love".

I submit in order for the horse to have "heart"..it has to understand the concept of a finsih line, and the concept of "winning" and the concept of finishing ahead of all the horses....even the ones it cant see. A horse wearing blinkers has no clue that it nosed out a horse by a couples of inches, or a head. It cant see the finish line or even understand what it means.

Horses that throw their jockey, and just run the race without a jockey...keeps going after the finish line....they havent a clue.

Because of the weight differential, I have seen horses that throw their jockey, physically finish in first place...and just keep going and going. Obviously not stopping with the great satisfaction of crossing the finish line first.

I would say in this instance having "heart" would mean the desire to finish infront of another horse?
Is it completely implausable that a horse can have such a desire? We have no idea what the horse is thinking, it is purely running because that is hat it was bread to do (and of course the little man on top whipping it) or is it because it believes it will be fed when it has finished the run?

I have on many occasions while talking to my wife told her that the only reason our little dog loves her is because he knows she is the one that feeds it. That isn't entirely accurate as dogs are pack animals too, they simply adapt their "master" to being their pack leader. Why else would a dog lie on your lap or lie close next to you on a hot day? Are they pre empting the feed or are they just being needy? :)

Good discussion!

I know nothing about horse herd instincts or whether they have alpha males. But if horses do defer to a herd leader, isn't that the horse you're looking for in any race? The one the others smell or otherwise instinctually follow? That's the horse that would want to lead, I would think, rather than a factor of heart - the horse that wants to lead the herd around him, if horses have emotions/instincts/placement in the herd. Or if you can't identify the leader, since the horses themselves haven't sorted it out, don't you want to identify the ones who think of themselves as leaders/contenders for herd boss? Seems like there has to be something to this; there are leaders in wolf packs, elephant prides, lion prides, most large mammals.

It's horse racing, it's called CLASS. Something a lot of people say they have, until things are not going so good for them.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I know nothing about horse herd instincts or whether they have alpha males. But if horses do defer to a herd leader, isn't that the horse you're looking for in any race? The one the others smell or otherwise instinctually follow? That's the horse that would want to lead, I would think, rather than a factor of heart - the horse that wants to lead the herd around him, if horses have emotions/instincts/placement in the herd. Or if you can't identify the leader, since the horses themselves haven't sorted it out, don't you want to identify the ones who think of themselves as leaders/contenders for herd boss? Seems like there has to be something to this; there are leaders in wolf packs, elephant prides, lion prides, most large mammals.

I would agree but would ask how, unless within a horse race, this will become apparent? And even if it does occur in a horse race, how will it be noticeable by the trainer in such a way that he can try and take advantage of that?

I think horses have brains (obviously) even though their brains are comparatively small. nobody knows exactly what their reasoning processes are and if they are simply acting out of instinct like most animals do.

I.have.no.idea :)

horses are trasined to run faster by using a whip. Its not that jockey depend on the horses yearning to finish ahead of another horse.

If a horse wears blinkers and is first out of the gate cannot see that it is ahead of any horses

A horse is whipped to go faster. And sometimes the horse is hand whipped more lightly with just the touch of a hand in the area that gets hit by the whip is enough to make them go faster just from memory of knowing what the whip feels like.

Race drivers step on the gas, jockies , use the whip......and the machine/horse responds.

I originally started this thread proposing that we give horses human qualities like having ther heart of a champion......but I have never seen evidence that horses know whats going on around them at the track. We think dogs are smart, we teach then tricks, we say that they "love" us bestowing upon them human traits. But in a dog race they have to be duped to run around a track with a mecghanical rabbit.They cant be trained to have the "heart" and satisfaction to run ahead of other dogs to win a race. that you say a horse has.But I have no doubt that dogs can be taught to run a race with an electronic device hooked up to them that a man can remotely control to inflict pain to get them to run faster.

As far as being smart, whould you rather be walking a horse by your side, anf if you fall over a cliff, and you are hanging on by your fingers for your life....the horse would walk away calmly...the dog would stand and bark and draw atention. And now someone tells us horses race back into burning barns after they have been saved because they cant comprehend the concept of being hurt or the concept of danger......yet we want to think the horses have the mental acuity to understand the need to finish ahead of another horse in the concept of a race or finsish line.

Although I have no proof either way. Just from what I see without bestowing human traits to horses because its a nice sentimental thing to do, or because it makes me feel good about betting on a horse that is just not responding to pain....I see nothing to tell me horses feel satisfaction from coming in first, nor understandthe concept of coming in first, wiinning, finish line....and then cannot have a "heart of a champion"

Horses are smarter than people. They don't bet on people.

Vets are smarter than doctors. Doctors can ask the patients questions.

Quote: Tomspur

nobody knows exactly what their reasoning processes

This is where most go wrong. Horses can not reason. They don't think. People mistake certain behaviors as proof that horses are smart or can think but in reality what is being observed is a conditioned behavior or the horse playing out it's instinct.

In a previous post you cited an example where a horse is running nothing but seconds then all of a sudden starts winning. That does happens all the time. There are a myriad of reason for this....
None of which has to do with the horse deciding he wants to win.....he didn't hear in the shed row that if he becomes a graded winner he might get to screw 100's of mares.

Race horses are expressing their physicality on the track. Confinement (23 hrs a day) plays a large part of their willingness to run. In nature they never run some far so fast. They have no sense of winning or losing. Horses chase other horses in their trip around the track as they are herd animals. The horse that runs on the front end is doing all the heavy lifting. He/she has no target to run at and is feeling pain.

Horses run in form cycles. Yes, some make big improvements. Some have a "hole" in them which finally uncovered by a trainer or groom. Some end up on drug program which can help big time. Lava Man is a prime example of the former.

No disrespect to previous posts but most folks don't understand horses.

Tomspur, like your passion for the ponies.....take it easy Mate

Quite often MSW races will produce a horse that has a string of seconds. Usually it's a case of bad luck. Drawing into a field with a superior first time starter. Combined with lose a race or two on the nod.

You can have 2 year olds that will become Grade 1 horses racing against horses that will have to drop to low claimers to break their maiden.

1960 My dad and I loaded up on a Maiden named Lilypond. Had gotten two winners from owner's sister earlier that year. Lilypond looked like a sure winner at the 1/8 pole. Then this 0/3 horse , making first US Start went by like a rocket, with jockey sitting chilly.
Next race set track record for a mile at Laurel. 3 starts later won the Belmont Stakes by 5 and 1/2 lengths. CELTIC ASH.

We did cash on Lilypond next out, but at 3/5, not 5/2 GRRRR !

Tree
Good Post

I think the issue is that some people who like to watch horse racing, or bet on it, want to think it is a yes/yes deal for the owner and animal. That the horse wants to win or finish first just as much as the owner/trainer/jockey/bettor. Some people cannot come to terms with the fact that the horse is being used just as a race care is used. The horse is responding to a whip r the threat of a whip.The horses get no satisfaction when they win, and conversely dont get depressed when they lose.
The horse race is simply men/women on top of horses whipping them and steering them through the path of least resistance to a finish line that the jockey is aware of...but not the horse.

So people humanize hiorses with human thought processes and human feelings because they cant view them as being couped up in stables 23 hours a day, and whipped during the race.

The reality is, these horses are built from the ground up like a race car. They are genertically engineered by breeding 2 other race horses together. They are fed vitamins and proper food to build up the muscle mass and trained to increase lung capacity and endurance. And if the horse has the genetics that transforms into strong long legs giving long powerful strides, and has muscle mass and endurance trained into it....the horse will win its share of races. Just as the person who builds the best car....will get his share of wins.

I absolutely get your reasoning and it makes perfect sense. Just as you have asked for proof that horses have the ability to reason (which I think is impossible to give), I will now ask for proof that horses don't have the ability for at least some form of brain function which could lead to something akin to following a pattern ike hearding or running because it knows it will be rewarded after.

As far as your theory goes that horses are trained and "manufactured" (for lack of a better word) to run faster and that the strong horses will most always win, there is a tale of a little slip of a mare from Zimbabwe, perhaps you have heard of the name......"Ipi Tombi"?
She was purchased in Zimbabwe for $30USD. She ran 14 times, won 12 and came 2nd twice. She was tiny, no more than 14.5hh. She had no breeding, and when she was bought it was assumed she would probably never even see a race course. After being beaten twice early on in her career, against top flight opposition in South Africa, Dubai and America, she never lost another race (against mares and colts).

What was it about this little girl that made her so good? Was it simply that she was a freak of nature? Was her heart able to propel her little body faster than most because it pumped more blood to her legs and other vital organs?

Perhaps it was something a little more whimsical????

I don't have the answer but I sure like the debate :)

Quote: Tomspur

I absolutely get your reasoning and it makes perfect sense. Just as you have asked for proof that horses have the ability to reason (which I think is impossible to give), I will now ask for proof that horses don't have the ability for at least some form of brain function which could lead to something akin to following a pattern ike hearding or running because it knows it will be rewarded after.

As far as your theory goes that horses are trained and "manufactured" (for lack of a better word) to run faster and that the strong horses will most always win, there is a tale of a little slip of a mare from Zimbabwe, perhaps you have heard of the name......"Ipi Tombi"?
She was purchased in Zimbabwe for $30USD. She ran 14 times, won 12 and came 2nd twice. She was tiny, no more than 14.5hh. She had no breeding, and when she was bought it was assumed she would probably never even see a race course. After being beaten twice early on in her career, against top flight opposition in South Africa, Dubai and America, she never lost another race (against mares and colts).

What was it about this little girl that made her so good? Was it simply that she was a freak of nature? Was her heart able to propel her little body faster than most because it pumped more blood to her legs and other vital organs?

Perhaps it was something a little more whimsical????

I don't have the answer but I sure like the debate :)

Hey mate....yeah, I mentioned Ipi Tombi in a post to you in another thread. She was a great Champion with humble bloodlines. Watched her run a few times. Amazing.

The great Northern Dancer (which she has in her pedigree) was barely 15 hands.

Not real familiar with her pedigree but Manshood her sire was unraced and stood at Gary Playe'sr stallion operation . Manhood was a son of the great Mr. Prospector out of a tremendous race mare Indian Skimmer. So there is some top line breeding.

On the bottom, mitochondrial DNA carries through the tail line and will jump up from time to time to produce a freak. Nevertheless class horses carry what can be described a "nervous energy" which makes them a force on the track. Ipi Tombi had her share of nervous energy and had a body that allowed her to express this nervous energy on the track.

Horses, like virtually all animals on the planet are not smart but that is not to denigrate them. They are wonderful animals. "The outside of a horse is good for the inside of man"

Quote: treetopbuddy

Hey mate....yeah, I mentioned Ipi Tombi in a post to you in another thread. She was a great Champion with humble bloodlines. Watched her run a few times. Amazing.

The great Northern Dancer (which she has in her pedigree) was barely 15 hands.

Not real familiar with her pedigree but Manshood her sire was unraced and stood at Gary Playe'sr stallion operation . Manhood was a son of the great Mr. Prospector out of a tremendous race mare Indian Skimmer. So there is some top line breeding.

On the bottom, mitochondrial DNA carries through the tail line and will jump up from time to time to produce a freak. Nevertheless class horses carry what can be described a "nervous energy" which makes them a force on the track. Ipi Tombi had her share of nervous energy and had a body that allowed her to express this nervous energy on the track.

Horses, like virtually all animals on the planet are not smart but that is not to denigrate them. They are wonderful animals. "The outside of a horse is good for the inside of man"

I absolutely agree that they are not smart but that doesn't mean there are no processes happening up there with synapsis firing that they don't have even just the slightest ability to understand rudimentary concepts such as running for reward or recognizing a person who has fed them in the past.

I know they can't sit down and fill in a crossword puzzle, I just am not convinced that they have no idea what is going on around them. I don't think we can argue one way or another to be honest. Until we are able to minaturize ourselves (ala Innerspace) I don't think we will be able to say if horses are smart or if they think or if they are completely brain dead :)

Glad I found another that I can share my passion for the ponies with :)

Quote: Tomspur

I absolutely agree that they are not smart but that doesn't mean there are no processes happening up there with synapsis firing that they don't have even just the slightest ability to understand rudimentary concepts such as running for reward or recognizing a person who has fed them in the past.

I know they can't sit down and fill in a crossword puzzle, I just am not convinced that they have no idea what is going on around them. I don't think we can argue one way or another to be honest. Until we are able to minaturize ourselves (ala Innerspace) I don't think we will be able to say if horses are smart or if they think or if they are completely brain dead :)

Glad I found another that I can share my passion for the ponies with :)

what "reward" does the winner get that the last place horse doesnt get. What are these "winning " horeses shooting for. What special treatment are they looking foward to for winning?
After a race the jockey stays on top of the winning horse longer....is that a treat for the horse? Also pictures are taken of the winner...do you think the real egomaniac horses love those photographs?

They all go back to the barn, maybe get hosed down, get some water, and food.

I dont see any incentive given to horses for winning in the form of something they would appreciate and differentiate in their minds from the times they came in 6th or 2nd or 1st. Horses have no clue that the edged out another horse.

I can put a calculus problem on a chalboard and put it in front of a hroses face, and someone might declare that the horse is solving the problem in its mind...and there is nothing I can do to prove that that is not the case.

Someone can tell me that their horse "loves" them and all I can do is smile as the person bestows human emotions on an animal

And someone can tell me that a horse knows all aboutthe finish line, and the concept of "a race" and the concept of winning and losing...and therefore when they win a race its because of "determination" and "the heart of a champion" and the "competitive spirit"...all human traits that we bestoe on a horse....and all I can d is say that I see no evidence of it.

There was a scandal years/decades ago in new york city where horse drawn carriage rides are given around central park. Horses died because of the heat(they werent given proper water and food and breaks)....just dropped dead right there. The horse would pull the carriage when being prodded until it died. It didnt do it because it had the "heart of a champion" and felt the need to entertain the paying customers..it was just a dumb animal that pulled a carriage when urged by the driver....until it died.

Well in my opinion, horses on the track are driven and steered and rated by humans.....and the humans try to get the most out of the bone and muscle tissue beneath them.....just like a race driver tries to get the most out of the machine that they drive. Like the central park horses..the race horses respond to whipping and prodding by the jockey If horses can be trained to run a race and have the urge to come in first.....we dont need jockeys. It would be more humane to just let the gates open and let them run. May the best horse win. May the horse with the biggest desire to win...come in first

But we don't conclusively beyond a shadow of a doubt know either way right? :)

You make some excellent points!

Quote: Tomspur

But we don't conclusively beyond a shadow of a doubt know either way right? :)

You make some excellent points!

I have no proof that horses cant solve algebra problems in their head. I have no proof that horses dont feel Hate like humans would toward their owners who keep them in a small prison 23 hours a day, and then rides them and whips them all the other times. I have no proof one way or the other if horses feel "happiness" and if they do....that they are or are not happy being ridden and whipped, and housed in small prison cells called barms.


Are the animals in the zoo "happy"? Can they feel "happiness"?.....are horses happiest running free in the fields all day, or sitting in a barn and being ridden and whipped periodically. Or is it impossible for a horse to feel "happiness" and therefore the use of horses in racing is just fine.

Who knows.

Quote: LarryS

I have no proof that horses cant solve algebra problems in their head. I have no proof that horses dont feel Hate like humans would toward their owners who keep them in a small prison 23 hours a day, and then rides them and whips them all the other times. I have no proof one way or the other if horses feel "happiness" and if they do....that they are or are not happy being ridden and whipped, and housed in small prison cells called barms.


Are the animals in the zoo "happy"? Can they feel "happiness"?.....are horses happiest running free in the fields all day, or sitting in a barn and being ridden and whipped periodically. Or is it impossible for a horse to feel "happiness" and therefore the use of horses in racing is just fine.

Who knows.

Agreed,

Let me ask this though. Is the reason for your OP that you disagree with the way racehorses are treated? Do you disagree with horseracing as a sport?

Your last sentence above made me wonder and prompted me to ask you your opinion on the matter rather than simply whether a horse is smart or not.

Horses exist. They have no futures, no pasts. They live in the moment. They only know pleasure and pain. Safety and danger. They are prey animals on guard full time. Extremely simple, predictable, beautiful creatures.

I feel like we're now whipping a dead horse. Pun intended.

Quote: Tomspur

Agreed,

Let me ask this though. Is the reason for your OP that you disagree with the way racehorses are treated? Do you disagree with horseracing as a sport?

Your last sentence above made me wonder and prompted me to ask you your opinion on the matter rather than simply whether a horse is smart or not.

I have bet on races for 35 years knowing that horses are whipped and confined in barns.

the point I am trying to make is that if we bestow human qualities on horses of haveing the heart of a champion,......then why wouldnt we think the horse can experience hatred to the owners for confining them and whipping them. Why would a horse that can experience the human trait of "wanting to win"....why wouldnt they also feel like they are punished for doing such a good job.

in myopinion...you beat the horse...it runs faster......end of story