Auburn vs. Alabama -- What was the right play?
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31 members have voted
Game details at Yahoo.
Why risk OT?
A field goal was more likely to succeed than a hail mary.
The coverage of the return was horrible. Alabama players made a half-assed attempt at the tackle. Seemed like they were all expecting someone else to make the tackle.
Quote: KeyserSozeFG was the correct decision. Saban knows his kicker, and must have believed the dude had a chance to kick it that far.
The coverage of the return was horrible. Alabama players made a half-assed attempt at the tackle. Seemed like they were all expecting someone else to make the tackle.
I watched this game, really amazing game, back and forth with that incredible finish.
I would have tried the field goal also, why not. How many times do you see a FG attempt returned for a TD. The problem with the kicking team is they all relax after they see the ball is kicked, and just stand there watching the ball instead of keeping frosty and covering the kicked ball.
Quote: MrVIt was correct to try to kick a field goal for the win.
Why risk OT?
A field goal was more likely to succeed than a hail mary.
I'm already getting killed in the voting!!!
I think that a Field Goal did have a greater probability of success than a Hail Mary, but I also think a Hail Mary had less of a chance of being run back for a TD by the defense provided you have a QB who can heave it into the endzone.
If the QB gets in trouble, he can just go down or throw it out of bounds and time is up.
The problem with the field goal unit is you have your nine best blockers, a kicker and whoever is holding out there, and if the kick is short, the guy who catches it is going to have some space to work with. The squad you have out there is not built to deal with a punt-return type situation, and they're not even down the field yet, so if the kick falls that short you know there will be an attempted return.
Another thing I don't think people realize is that the starting kicker, Cade Foster, was not on that play after going 0-3 (one blocked) and Griffith, the kicker, was a redshirt freshman who was 1-2 on the season with a successful 20-yarder, to that point.
If you throw the Hail Mary and it gets picked, there's going to be so much traffic around the guy who caught the interception that there is a very small chance of there being any meaningful attempt at a TD return. Even if there is, you've got some speed on the field with your WR's, RB and QB, so the INT return has a pretty good chance of being prevented, even if the player catches it with space, which he won't.
2.) Who voted for a punt? If you wanted to just end regulation, you'd just take a knee.
Quote: DRichI agree with most here that the FG was the correct call. What I think was more controversial was the possession in the 4th quarter where they went for it on 4th and 1 and didn't try the short field goal when leading by 7.
Saban had zero confidence in his kicker. 0-3. Kicker was choking big time. Asking Yeldon a top five running back in country to get a yard seemed sensible.
I don't know if he is a WoV member, but he would probably vote for punt, maybe he did?
1. 38 yard line makes it a 53 yard kick, right? Seems like that's a loooong way on a college team, especially for a backup kicker with the game on the line. Don't know wind conditions, either, but with him kicking THAT short, I'm guessing he shanked it or something to do with nerves.
2. Didn't see the game (saw exactly 1 second of it, unfortunately), so don't know the following: Who would have had the ball first in OT? Who had the momentum at that point? Who had gotten hurt and couldn't play in OT? Minus that information, I'm on the Hail Mary team with Mission; at least the team is down where they can defend, and is mentally set for an interception/runback if it doesn't work. If OT is a sure loser based on the game so far, then I'd try the FG.
EDIT: Ok, I went and looked at it several times here and, though they cut it off at the very start, at about 15 seconds in, they start with an end-zone shot of the kick and playback with the Auburn team announcer (worth listening to by itself). Anyway, it looked like an Auburn lineman got a palm into it as it went up and it might have been why it was short. Can anyone else tell from that angle if he got a piece of the ball, or heard that happened somewhere? Just curious....
Quote: beachbumbabsYeah, we were talking about the kicker at dinner; figuring he was receiving one-way bus passes, gift certificates for tar and feathers, all the rest. "Laces OUT, Dan!" Classic.
1. 38 yard line makes it a 53 yard kick, right? Seems like that's a loooong way on a college team, especially for a backup kicker with the game on the line. Don't know wind conditions, either, but with him kicking THAT short, I'm guessing he shanked it or something to do with nerves.
2. Didn't see the game (saw exactly 1 second of it, unfortunately), so don't know the following: Who would have had the ball first in OT? Who had the momentum at that point? Who had gotten hurt and couldn't play in OT? Minus that information, I'm on the Hail Mary team with Mission; at least the team is down where they can defend, and is mentally set for an interception/runback if it doesn't work. If OT is a sure loser based on the game so far, then I'd try the FG.
1.) It was actually a 57-yard attempt. That's a long way for anyone, especially a college kicker who happens to be a redshirt freshman and 1-for-2 on the season in game situations (20-yarder made) with the game, and quite probably, guaranteeing that your team plays in the BCS National Championship on the line.
Him kicking it that short is just him kicking it that short, though, in my opinion. From a long-distance, the kicker really needs to just try to get a ton of air under the ball and basically just kick it as far as possible, so it's not at all a line-drive type of kick. The result of that is that when it starts to lose that velocity, it does so pretty quickly. You'll often see a long field goal made and the announcer say something like, "He could have drilled that from seventy yards!" It sounds good, and looks that way, but he actually could not have drilled it from seventy yards, in all likelihood, simply due to how quickly it dies in the air.
2.) There is a coin-flip to determine who gets the ball first, but both teams gets the ball from the twenty-five regardless of what the first team does. The only exception is a defensive fumble or interception returned for a TD, in which event, the game ends. If the defense picks off the QB and does not return it for a TD, the drive starts at the opposite 25 anyway.
EDIT: BeachBumBabs, everything I have read is referring to it as a, "Miss," rather than a block, and I've not heard anything to the effect that the lineman got a piece of it. I tend to doubt it given the distance that Griffith still put under it.
It's funny when you see a missed attempt get caught in the endzone people think that the miss was way short, but honestly, it wouldn't have taken that much more for that kick to have had the distance.
Quote: KeyserSozeThe Alabama kicker is getting a bunch of death threats sent to him on @twitter.
I don't know if he is a WoV member, but he would probably vote for punt, maybe he did?
I don't think it means Griffith, I believe that refers to starting kicker and Senior Cade Foster, who went 0-3 including a FG attempt that was blocked.
Quote: Mission1461.) It was actually a 57-yard attempt. That's a long way for anyone, especially a college kicker who happens to be a redshirt freshman and 1-for-2 on the season in game situations (20-yarder made) with the game, and quite probably, guaranteeing that your team plays in the BCS National Championship on the line.
Him kicking it that short is just him kicking it that short, though, in my opinion. From a long-distance, the kicker really needs to just try to get a ton of air under the ball and basically just kick it as far as possible, so it's not at all a line-drive type of kick. The result of that is that when it starts to lose that velocity, it does so pretty quickly. You'll often see a long field goal made and the announcer say something like, "He could have drilled that from seventy yards!" It sounds good, and looks that way, but he actually could not have drilled it from seventy yards, in all likelihood, simply due to how quickly it dies in the air.
2.) There is a coin-flip to determine who gets the ball first, but both teams gets the ball from the twenty-five regardless of what the first team does. The only exception is a defensive fumble or interception returned for a TD, in which event, the game ends. If the defense picks off the QB and does not return it for a TD, the drive starts at the opposite 25 anyway.
I was listening to sports talk radio, and a talking head said that Saban can be seen talking on the sideline saying(reading lips)...."i told you this could happen"
Whether its true or not, I do agree that the jumbo blocking package was out there...BUT....they were not coached well. They were not coached to release and get in their lanes in case of a runback. Its a coaching issue. Remember..its not a bang bang play. The ball gets kicked, it gets caught 9 yards deep in the endzone....and then the guy has to run almost 50 yards just to get to the line of scrimmage where everyone started.You would think even the slowest players could get into position if they were coached well. But they basically stood aroundand watched. The decision to kick is 50-50 in my mind. Not even a pro kicker would make that one 90 percent of the time. Personally a crazy running play with laterals had a better chance in my opinion. But if the field goal was being tried...the players better be better coached on handling a runback. There was a good chance that a runback could occur given the distance..it it seems only one team was prepared for the runback. Guess which one.
Quote: LarrySI was listening to sports talk radio, and a talking head said that Saban can be seen talking on the sideline saying(reading lips)...."i told you this could happen"
Whether its true or not, I do agree that the jumbo blocking package was out there...BUT....they were not coached well. They were not coached to release and get in their lanes in case of a runback. Its a coaching issue. Remember..its not a bang bang play. The ball gets kicked, it gets caught 9 yards deep in the endzone....and then the guy has to run almost 50 yards just to get to the line of scrimmage where everyone started.You would think even the slowest players could get into position if they were coached well. But they basically stood aroundand watched. The decision to kick is 50-50 in my mind. Not even a pro kicker would make that one 90 percent of the time. Personally a crazy running play with laterals had a better chance in my opinion. But if the field goal was being tried...the players better be better coached on handling a runback. There was a good chance that a runback could occur given the distance..it it seems only one team was prepared for the runback. Guess which one.
Yeah, Larry, I heard a lot of analysis before I actually found a decent clip of the play. Sounds like there were a LOT of opportunities for Alabama to put it away before it came down to literally the last second. Maybe Sabin simply got out-coached and Auburn wanted it more.
OK, seriously. Punting was the best choice. You force Auburn to go the length of the field against Alabama's strength, their defense. My second choice is to run a play, trying to pickup the first down, which would end the game. Field goal attempt is my last choice.
A return is only one of several bad things that could happen. A blocked field goal would have also been devastating, and when you kick a long field goal, the kicker must kick the ball lower, for distance and blocked feild goals become a higher risk. Third bad thing is just a missed kick, which is pretty likely. Ball would then be placed at the point of the kick (not line of scrimmage), in this case, Auburn ball at the 47 yard line (almost midfield), where they would only need to go 53 yards for a touchdown, as opposed to 90 or 95 if you punt the ball out of bounds inside the 10.
Quote: Mission146I don't think it means Griffith, I believe that refers to starting kicker and Senior Cade Foster, who went 0-3 including a FG attempt that was blocked.
Yeah, I'm sure you're correct. Thanks for setting it straight.
Not that he (starting kicker) should be killed either, though.
I don't even think a pro kicker drills that in practice with all of the time in the world to line it up 90% of the time.
In fact:
http://www.footballdb.com/stats.html?mode=K&yr=2012&lg=NFL&sort=kick50
Assuming I added this up right, NFL kickers went a combined 92-for-150, or 61.33% in 2012 just from 50+ yards, that's to say nothing for 57 yards!
I think, "Crazy running play with laterals," could have been an option if they were down at that point, but I think that's even too risky with the game tied because of the risk of there being a fumble with a recovering defender having room to run. Definitely a worthy poll option, though.
Quote: kewljI voted 'kneel', but my vote wasn't really about football. I am a fan of kneeling. I have my boyfriend kneel all the time. :-)
OK, seriously. Punting was the best choice. You force Auburn to go the length of the field against Alabama's strength, their defense. My second choice is to run a play, trying to pickup the first down, which would end the game. Field goal attempt is my last choice.
If you wanted to end regulation, you would just kneel! There was only one second left, there was absolutely no reason to ever punt in that situation.
The ball placement on a miss is also immaterial, in this case, because the game simply goes to overtime due to time being up in regulation.
Quote: KeyserSozeYeah, I'm sure you're correct. Thanks for setting it straight.
Not that he (starting kicker) should be killed either, though.
No problem.
No, neither should be killed, but killing a redshirt freshman for missing a 57-yarder is definitely the less justifiable homicide.
Quote: Mission146I don't think it means Griffith, I believe that refers to starting kicker and Senior Cade Foster, who went 0-3 including a FG attempt that was blocked.
I wonder what goes on within the team. I remember a game like this a few years ago where Boise ST played nevada. Boise a big fave. If Boise wins they are in a major BCS bowl game and even has consideration for the championship game. The Boise fiekd goal kicker misses 2 late field goals and one field goal in overtime. Nevada wins by a field goal in OT. It was a hard fought game. A real battle. Injuries, alot of blood and sweat from the people in the trenches.
Yet the game is decided by poor performance by a kicker that doesnt get hsi hands dirty. PLay 30deconds each game.
Now personally I am not into the blame game. But I wonder what it does to a TEAM. Does it split them with people who are firends of the kicker vs people who want to kick his ass?
Same with the alabama game. I dont ever want to see the general public get involved with retaliation. But what happens within the team....when a single player fails 3-4 times and you lose. Especially when that player was not getting hit and dragged through the mud throughout the game. A player with no sweat and blood on his jersey.
Quote: Mission146If you wanted to end regulation, you would just kneel! There was only one second left, there was absolutely no reason to ever punt in that situation.
The ball placement on a miss is also immaterial, in this case, because the game simply goes to overtime due to time being up in regulation.
You are 100% correct mission. I didn't see the end of game, only replays. I did not realized this was the final play. For some reason, I mistakenly thought there was about 33 seconds remaining. My bad.
Now realizing the actual circumstances, the missed field goal does not come into play. But the higher likelihood of a block and slimmer chance of a miraculous return (which happened) would have still been a big risk. I would have opted for overtime and taken my chances there. But it is a much closer call, than my erroneous scenario.
Quote: kewljYou are 100% correct mission. I didn't see the end of game, only replays. I did not realized this was the final play. For some reason, I mistakenly thought there was about 33 seconds remaining. My bad.
No problem!
I still like the Hail Mary, for reasons already given, but kneeling would be my second choice.
Quote: LarrySI wonder what goes on within the team. I remember a game like this a few years ago where Boise ST played nevada. Boise a big fave. If Boise wins they are in a major BCS bowl game and even has consideration for the championship game. The Boise fiekd goal kicker misses 2 late field goals and one field goal in overtime. Nevada wins by a field goal in OT. It was a hard fought game. A real battle. Injuries, alot of blood and sweat from the people in the trenches.
Same with the alabama game. I dont ever want to see the general public get involved with retaliation. But what happens within the team....when a single player fails 3-4 times and you lose. Especially when that player was not getting hit and dragged through the mud throughout the game. A player with no sweat and blood on his jersey.
I guess, as a kicker/punter in High School, I can somewhat speak to this...although I lined up at TE if we were inside the five and was third-string QB:
Football is a game about camaraderie, teamwork and personal responsibility, so I would imagine that almost everyone in that locker room had Cade Foster's back. Words of encouragement, re-assuring pats on the shoulder, all of that.
I had the good fortune to have never missed a crucial Field Goal or to have ever missed an extra point attempt, at all, but I am reminded of one occasion with less than a minute on the clock of bobbling a snap on a punt and having to try to take off with it. We were on our own twenty-yard line and the way our defense had been dominating that game, a punt of just about any distance would have sufficed. In any event, the snap came in almost perfect, and for some reason, I just dropped it. It had nothing to do with nerves, or pressure...pressure never really got to me...it just had to do with football being a physical game and human beings are physically imperfect creatures.
In any case, I bobbled the snap, dropped it, picked it up and I had someone on me by then. I feinted left and took off to the right, managed to get positive yardage, but not enough for the first down.
Needless to say, the other team pulled together a touchdown and managed to win the game, and the only person in that locker room that blamed me was me. A couple of the guys on the punt team pointed the finger at themselves saying that they didn't hold their blocks long enough and that I should have been able to recover and get that punt off, the snapper swore up and down that the snap was a bit high (the snap was perfect) the defense blamed themselves for not being able to hold the other team out of the endzone when they had twenty-five yards to go and less than forty-five seconds to do it, with no timeouts.
The long and short of it is, when a team loses, everyone on the team wants to put the responsibility for the loss on their shoulders and believes that he could have done more, at least, in my experience. Nobody blamed me for that loss, except I blamed myself, and I still do blame myself for it...although...being a married father of two now...it's certainly not one of the most important moments of my life, at this point.
It is my fault, but it is also true that we are all accountable. There were any number of plays in that game where, if everyone had played perfectly, we wouldn't have only been up by four points at the end of the game. At the same time, if the other team had played perfectly, it could be argued that we wouldn't have had the lead, at that point, at all. There were also three plays in which our offense amassed a total of three yards, so if we could have gotten a first down, I would never have been on the field at that moment to begin with.
You win as a team and you lose as a team, though, anyone who believes otherwise is not a teammate, just a player.
Quote: Mission146I guess, as a kicker/punter in High School, I can somewhat speak to this...although I lined up at TE if we were inside the five and was third-string QB:
Football is a game about camaraderie, teamwork and personal responsibility, so I would imagine that almost everyone in that locker room had Cade Foster's back. Words of encouragement, re-assuring pats on the shoulder, all of that.
I had the good fortune to have never missed a crucial Field Goal or to have ever missed an extra point attempt, at all, but I am reminded of one occasion with less than a minute on the clock of bobbling a snap on a punt and having to try to take off with it. We were on our own twenty-yard line and the way our defense had been dominating that game, a punt of just about any distance would have sufficed. In any event, the snap came in almost perfect, and for some reason, I just dropped it. It had nothing to do with nerves, or pressure...pressure never really got to me...it just had to do with football being a physical game and human beings are physically imperfect creatures.
In any case, I bobbled the snap, dropped it, picked it up and I had someone on me by then. I feinted left and took off to the right, managed to get positive yardage, but not enough for the first down.
Needless to say, the other team pulled together a touchdown and managed to win the game, and the only person in that locker room that blamed me was me. A couple of the guys on the punt team pointed the finger at themselves saying that they didn't hold their blocks long enough and that I should have been able to recover and get that punt off, the snapper swore up and down that the snap was a bit high (the snap was perfect) the defense blamed themselves for not being able to hold the other team out of the endzone when they had twenty-five yards to go and less than forty-five seconds to do it, with no timeouts.
The long and short of it is, when a team loses, everyone on the team wants to put the responsibility for the loss on their shoulders and believes that he could have done more, at least, in my experience. Nobody blamed me for that loss, except I blamed myself, and I still do blame myself for it...although...being a married father of two now...it's certainly not one of the most important moments of my life, at this point.
It is my fault, but it is also true that we are all accountable. There were any number of plays in that game where, if everyone had played perfectly, we wouldn't have only been up by four points at the end of the game. At the same time, if the other team had played perfectly, it could be argued that we wouldn't have had the lead, at that point, at all. There were also three plays in which our offense amassed a total of three yards, so if we could have gotten a first down, I would never have been on the field at that moment to begin with.
You win as a team and you lose as a team, though, anyone who believes otherwise is not a teammate, just a player.
well I asked the question and got a resonable credible answer. I have zero team sports experience....so the real insight was welcome
Alabama missed four field goals — FOUR! — and passed on a chip shot that could've given the Tide a 10-point lead with 5 1-2 minutes remaining. It's not like this is a mystery to Saban, whose team nearly squandered another national title during the 2011 season because his team missed four field goals in an overtime loss to LSU.
Quote: BuzzardAlabama has it's choices of the best players in the country. Why does Lou not have a great kicker ?
Alabama missed four field goals — FOUR! — and passed on a chip shot that could've given the Tide a 10-point lead with 5 1-2 minutes remaining. It's not like this is a mystery to Saban, whose team nearly squandered another national title during the 2011 season because his team missed four field goals in an overtime loss to LSU.
I think its a superiority complex, over confidence, inflated ego.....the idea that your team is going to blow others out and u wont need a field goal kicker...or it could be a good kicker that has not been put in a pressure situation all year....and now has to deal with pressure for the first time/
In the example I gave from 3 or 4 years ago when Boise st played nevada and lost by 3 in OT, as their field goal kicker blew 3 easy late in the game field goals/ But before that all year boise was blowing teams out by 30 points. They were scoring touchdowns, not field goals. And when they went for a field goal it wasnt a pressure situation. Make it or miss it they were going to win by double digits.
well what happens when a team like alabama or Boise State never battle tests their kicker?.....you see the results.
Quote: bbbbccccConsistently pointing to the 4 missed field goals is a little unfair. One of them was a 57 yarder, which is a very unlikely thing in college. And another one of them was blocked. So only 2 were really legit misses.
A block is a miss at short range. I mean like get the ball UP!
.2+(.5 x .78) = .59
The hail Mary has a 5% chance of success and a 1% chance of being run all the way back. Win probability is:
.05 +(.5 x .94) = .52
Of coarse you can't know the probabilities of all these events on the spot and I just made these numbers up, but the point is: 1) you only take a knee if the your other options for the last play have a better chance of scoring for the defense than for the offense and 2) A field goal even at 57 yards has a better chance of success than a hail Mary.
Quote: treetopbuddy....had she been smoking pot we would not have this story.
I think this is the first time I agree with something you said.
Quote: bbbbccccYeah, except Bama is nothing like Boise State. Bama plays in the SEC, where they are routinely tested. There is a reason that, despite winning multiple national championships, Bama hasn't been able to go undefeated since the early '90s. It is a completely different situation from BSU, who was playing teams like Idaho every week.
35-10
49-42
31-6
25-0
45-3
48-7
52-0
45-10
38-17
20-7
49-0
I dont see alot of opportunity for the fied goal kicker to be tested throughout the year. The defense was so dominant that the kicker had no pressure. maybe in sept he had a pressure kick....in the tex AM game 49-42.....maybe. But the defense from that game on was so dominant that the kicker for 3 months had no worries, no pressure. Ooops the defense allows over 30 points and every attempt for points is important and the national rankong hangs in the balance.....well presure was not met well.
The alabama kicker was in the same position as the kicker for boise state....both never had a pressure cooker situation during the year....and when a hgh ranking and a chanpionship possibility is on the line in the last game of the year.......its nice to have previous pressue situations to call upon as experience...neither did....same results.
