Impact of sequence of symbols of reel on multiple pay-line video slots
February 9th, 2012 at 3:02:07 AM
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I am planing to work on a multiple line video slot as a project for my grad school.
I am new to slots and there are some questions that have arised in my mind:
1. Can we design a game with no "blank(s)"; If i say that i have 8 symbols+wild/ bonus symbols and i have a reel with 80 elements: can I design a reel with no "blank" spaces between them. Is there any severe impact on payouts and hit-ratio if i do so?
2. Does the sequence of the symbols with diffrent weights assigned to a reel has an impact on payouts or hit ratio?
Please help me out on this. Thanks in advance.
I am new to slots and there are some questions that have arised in my mind:
1. Can we design a game with no "blank(s)"; If i say that i have 8 symbols+wild/ bonus symbols and i have a reel with 80 elements: can I design a reel with no "blank" spaces between them. Is there any severe impact on payouts and hit-ratio if i do so?
2. Does the sequence of the symbols with diffrent weights assigned to a reel has an impact on payouts or hit ratio?
Please help me out on this. Thanks in advance.
February 9th, 2012 at 7:05:44 AM
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You're in graduate school. Figure it out.
Go to a casino and look at slot machines. Look at the ones people are playing. Plenty of slot machines have a payout based on sequence, that is, if the symbols appear in positions 2 - 5, but not in position 1, you lose.
Good luck.
Go to a casino and look at slot machines. Look at the ones people are playing. Plenty of slot machines have a payout based on sequence, that is, if the symbols appear in positions 2 - 5, but not in position 1, you lose.
Good luck.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
February 11th, 2012 at 5:21:42 AM
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Thanks boymimbo but maybe i was not clear in expressing what i wished to ask.
Let me explain it more clearly, suppose we have a 5 reel slot with 3basic pay-lines and after a spin it shows output as follows:
By sequence i meant symbols on a single reel as in {A,"blank",D} on first reel, and i understand that there is no winning in row 2 even though symbols are matched from position 2-4; and there is a winning in row 3 as symbols are matched from position1-3.
Let me explain it more clearly, suppose we have a 5 reel slot with 3basic pay-lines and after a spin it shows output as follows:
| A | B | D | E | |
| B | B | B | ||
| D | D | D | C |
By sequence i meant symbols on a single reel as in {A,"blank",D} on first reel, and i understand that there is no winning in row 2 even though symbols are matched from position 2-4; and there is a winning in row 3 as symbols are matched from position1-3.
February 15th, 2012 at 6:08:42 AM
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Im not sure if this will answer your question but there are slot machines with a symbol on every line and every result will show three symbols across. but the symbols showing across must match a cerain combination to get a payout.
the machine I am most familiar with is "all 7s" and on every spin you will get three 7s across. but the 7s on the reels are different colors and you must match up three 7s of the same color to get a winner. different colors = different win amounts.
what you are missing, however, is that today's modern slot machines have reels that only mimic the "virtual reels" of the random number generator.
in the past, before computers, winners were determined by the actual reels, but today the RNG determines which reel positions show based on millions of possible reel positions instead of the actual count of "stops" on a reel. this actually gives you more results that you could get from just the actual reel positions.
here's an example:
you have a two reel slot with two "stops" or positions on each reel.
on a mechanical slot your combinations would be
1 1
1 2
2 1
2 2
on a virtual, computer machine, the RNG could give you any number of "stops" such as:
1 1
1 1
1 2
1 2
1 2
1 2
1 1
2 1
2 1
My point is that the computer RNG virtual reels are not limited to the actual positions on any reel.
the machine I am most familiar with is "all 7s" and on every spin you will get three 7s across. but the 7s on the reels are different colors and you must match up three 7s of the same color to get a winner. different colors = different win amounts.
what you are missing, however, is that today's modern slot machines have reels that only mimic the "virtual reels" of the random number generator.
in the past, before computers, winners were determined by the actual reels, but today the RNG determines which reel positions show based on millions of possible reel positions instead of the actual count of "stops" on a reel. this actually gives you more results that you could get from just the actual reel positions.
here's an example:
you have a two reel slot with two "stops" or positions on each reel.
on a mechanical slot your combinations would be
1 1
1 2
2 1
2 2
on a virtual, computer machine, the RNG could give you any number of "stops" such as:
1 1
1 1
1 2
1 2
1 2
1 2
1 1
2 1
2 1
My point is that the computer RNG virtual reels are not limited to the actual positions on any reel.
February 15th, 2012 at 11:59:35 AM
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Quote: NJ1. Can we design a game with no "blank(s)"; If i say that i have 8 symbols+wild/ bonus symbols and i have a reel with 80 elements: can I design a reel with no "blank" spaces between them. Is there any severe impact on payouts and hit-ratio if i do so?
The "obvious" answer is "yes, it will affect hit ratio, as any blanks that would have been on reel 1 would be automatic losers on every line that included that position."
Quote:2. Does the sequence of the symbols with diffrent weights assigned to a reel has an impact on payouts or hit ratio?
I thought I read somewhere else in this forum that a multi-line slot machine would never have symbols with different weights, as you would end up with some lines actually become more like to have winners because of it. (Then again, this "feature" could be used to the casino's advantage - if, say, the symbols directly above and below the "heavily weighted" symbols on reel 2 were different from the ones on reel 1.)
Something you might want to note on a multi-line machine; if the three symbols that appear on reel 1 and the three that appear on reel 2 are six different symbols, then all lines lose on that spin. You might want to take into account not only how often each symbol shows up on line 1, but how often every possible set of visible symbols appears (and what the payouts would be for every possible number of lines you would allow).
February 15th, 2012 at 12:36:32 PM
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Quote: NJI am planing to work on a multiple line video slot as a project for my grad school.
I am new to slots and there are some questions that have arised in my mind:
1. Can we design a game with no "blank(s)"; If i say that i have 8 symbols+wild/ bonus symbols and i have a reel with 80 elements: can I design a reel with no "blank" spaces between them. Is there any severe impact on payouts and hit-ratio if i do so?
2. Does the sequence of the symbols with diffrent weights assigned to a reel has an impact on payouts or hit ratio?
Please help me out on this. Thanks in advance.
Yes and yes. Where are you studying, and with whom?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 28th, 2012 at 5:30:18 AM
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Thank you all for your replies.
I have tested my outcomes 3 times for 1million game plays on my 3reel-5paylines slot game; for both the variable and fixed virtual slot reels.
In by "fixed virtual slot reel" I mean that the symbols are arranged in same fixed order on the reels for all the 1 million game plays and by "Variable virtual slot reel" I mean that there will be a different order of symbol arrangement on the reels; though the symbol weighting remains the same as in 'fixed reel'.
In case of variable reels i got the average winnings almost 5 times as expected probability for a single pay-line game (as i was playing with 5 pay-lines and each payline represents a single individual game as i have read somewhere in this forum only) for all the 3 times i tested them over 1 million game plays.
And in case of a specific fixed reels i got the average winnings results a bit higher then my results of "variable reels" for all the 3 times I tested them over 1 million game plays. (To be precise around 2000 line winnings more then average. It's not a huge difference though.)
So according to my study on these I think that surely there will be different outcomes if had a different fixed symbol order on reels; and they might even higher than the specific "fixed reel" i tested on! or even be lower than "variable reel" case..
So here I do have a couple of question:
1. Is there any procedure to design the reel? by which we can control the outcomes which do not go higher then expected probabilities?
2. Do standard video slot games have fixed order of symbols on reels for every single game played on them?
I am from India and I am studying in Rajasthan Technical University.
I have tested my outcomes 3 times for 1million game plays on my 3reel-5paylines slot game; for both the variable and fixed virtual slot reels.
In by "fixed virtual slot reel" I mean that the symbols are arranged in same fixed order on the reels for all the 1 million game plays and by "Variable virtual slot reel" I mean that there will be a different order of symbol arrangement on the reels; though the symbol weighting remains the same as in 'fixed reel'.
In case of variable reels i got the average winnings almost 5 times as expected probability for a single pay-line game (as i was playing with 5 pay-lines and each payline represents a single individual game as i have read somewhere in this forum only) for all the 3 times i tested them over 1 million game plays.
And in case of a specific fixed reels i got the average winnings results a bit higher then my results of "variable reels" for all the 3 times I tested them over 1 million game plays. (To be precise around 2000 line winnings more then average. It's not a huge difference though.)
So according to my study on these I think that surely there will be different outcomes if had a different fixed symbol order on reels; and they might even higher than the specific "fixed reel" i tested on! or even be lower than "variable reel" case..
So here I do have a couple of question:
1. Is there any procedure to design the reel? by which we can control the outcomes which do not go higher then expected probabilities?
2. Do standard video slot games have fixed order of symbols on reels for every single game played on them?
Quote: MathExtremist....Where are you studying, and with whom?
I am from India and I am studying in Rajasthan Technical University.
February 28th, 2012 at 7:50:59 AM
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Have you read the Wizard of Odd's page on slot machine design?
A basic rule is that you need lots of combinations. This allows the designer to give some big jackpots with correspondingly small probability of getting the jackpot. By contrast dice only gives you 36 combinations, so the biggest payout is 30:1 in craps.
It's my understanding that reel slot machine originally had all symbols. But they found that with more than 10 symbols the reel tended to look to cramped and busy. With only 10^3 combinations they couldn't create the big jackpots. By using the blank spaces, it was possible to design a wheel with 22 stops (which became the standard for mechanical wheels). With 22^3 combinations they could create bigger jackpots.
When lotteries came along in the 1970's, they wanted to give ever bigger payouts. So they invented "virtual reels" which looked like mechanical reels but had up to 72 "virtual stops". Now they had 72^3 stops, and could afford even bigger payouts. Video screens were possible, but people didn't trust them because they felt that only something that looked like a mechanical spinning wheel was "fair".
Today, most people are comfortable looking at video screens. So with 5 reels it is possible to make all the combinations you could ever need to give the highest possible jackpots.
A basic rule is that you need lots of combinations. This allows the designer to give some big jackpots with correspondingly small probability of getting the jackpot. By contrast dice only gives you 36 combinations, so the biggest payout is 30:1 in craps.
It's my understanding that reel slot machine originally had all symbols. But they found that with more than 10 symbols the reel tended to look to cramped and busy. With only 10^3 combinations they couldn't create the big jackpots. By using the blank spaces, it was possible to design a wheel with 22 stops (which became the standard for mechanical wheels). With 22^3 combinations they could create bigger jackpots.
When lotteries came along in the 1970's, they wanted to give ever bigger payouts. So they invented "virtual reels" which looked like mechanical reels but had up to 72 "virtual stops". Now they had 72^3 stops, and could afford even bigger payouts. Video screens were possible, but people didn't trust them because they felt that only something that looked like a mechanical spinning wheel was "fair".
Today, most people are comfortable looking at video screens. So with 5 reels it is possible to make all the combinations you could ever need to give the highest possible jackpots.
February 28th, 2012 at 11:17:41 AM
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Quote: NJ1. Is there any procedure to design the reel? by which we can control the outcomes which do not go higher then expected probabilities?
The only way I can think of to know what the expected results will be is through a brute force search. The variables are (a) each of the reels/columns and (b) the number of "lines" that can be played simultaneously.
If you have a 5-column machine, and each column has 20 symbols, then there are 205 = 3,200,000 different possible combinations of symbols appearing - and for each possible set of lines, you have to check all 3,200,000 combinations separately (since you can't really compare playing the machine with just 1 line against playing it with 5 - it's sort of like comparing test match, ODI, and Twenty20 statistics against each other; it's all cricket, but using values for one does not predict values in the others.)
