Uncashed payout tickets could bring millions to the state
Poll
 | 17 votes (62.96%) | ||
| | 10 votes (37.03%) |
27 members have voted
Quote: rxwineThe casino won't give it back(or at least they don't have to currently with Exp dates), the state will if you claim it.
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In fact, come to think of it, the unclaimed funds work across state lines. So, no matter what state you're from, you can get back unclaimed money - even if left for years. (I'm not sure if there is an upper time limit though)
Except, probably other countries: Mexico. heh.
Quote: rxwine
I don't know why you favor the casino keeping money they didn't earn.
Because despite his disagreements with me on other things, Nareed and I seem to agree the state did even less to earn it and has no right to the monies.
Quote: AZDuffmanBecause despite his disagreements with me on other things, Nareed and I seem to agree the state did even less to earn it and has no right to the monies.
Well, then, either it's really the casino's money, or yours.
If it's always the casino's money - then no problem
However, I think it's lost money, unclaimed money, not the casinoo's money, and that would go to the state anywhere else, or the police station until claimed (still much like the state). The casinos shouldn't get to operate outside the bounds of the law where it would apply elsewhere.
If you're walking along, and you drop a $20 in the casino, casinos are arresting people (someone other than you) for picking that up.
However, if I drop a $20 TITO on the floor, it's starting to sound like the casino has more right to it than I do. Well, that's the way I think it sounds, in any case, the tracking of my ticket has gotten away from me in both cases.
What is the policy if a player leaves a table game with a chip of his or hers still on it? Seems like this would be relevant to TITO. (I don't know the answer, just asking)
i.e, that is, if they forget for some reason gather one up
I think I have heard of some casinos taking "abandoned" bets down and holding them for a known player, but I don't know what happens if they are not claimed soon.
Quote: rxwineThe casino won't give it back(or at least they don't have to currently with Exp dates), the state will if you claim it.
That seems fair. But the state won't put it to good use in the meantime anyway.
Quote:I don't know why you favor the casino keeping money they didn't earn.
Because it's money purposefully or carelessly abandoned on its property, and from a transaction of which the casinos are part.
Other than restaurants, I don't ever leave money behind except on rare occasions (like they don't have coins or small bills to make the exact change). In restaurants I leave it as part of the tip. But if I left any money on purpose, or dind't care enough to get my change, i woulnd't complain about whatever place I left it at keeping it.
A few years back subway tickets went from one peso to one peso and 20 cents (it's heavily subsidized, so those who don't use it pay more for it). For a few weeks people would typically pay 2 pesos and were given fifty cents back, rather than 80 cents, as the tellers claimed there was no change. If you paid exactly one peso and twenty cents, though, sometimes they'd say they weren't allowed to take 20 cent coins. So, sure, epople will swindle you for even such tiny amounts if they can get away with it. But if you choose to say "keep the change," it's ahrdly surprising the casinos keep it.
Quote: NareedMaybe if the tickets expired in 120 minutes, people wouldn't be so casual about cashing them.
Better still, put a booth in the middle of the desert 42,195 meters away from the casino exit, and have a daily marathon. The first 10 to arrive get to cash out!
Quote: RobSingerMy opinion was you were confused because you're only seeing the issue from your point of view and so far have shown an inability to see it (or maybe explain it) from any other.
I thought I had confused the two types of gamblers.
Maybe you're confused.
Quote: FarFromVegasThe first time I ever went to Vegas, we flew in for a big trip to the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone and we brought along my niece so we needed a really big room, so we stayed at the Venetian. We had just gotten all the kids to bed when the phone rang, and it was security asking if we were using the safe. I said we weren't and it was closed anyway so we couldn't, and they came up and opened it and took out an envelope and looked inside and said, "I can't imagine forgetting about this much money!"
I wonder how much it was. As it says in The Great Gatsby, the very rich are different from you and me.
I have no problem with the rich, except for the guys born on 3rd base who think they have hit a triple !!
Quote: WizardFirst, I think it is greedy to have only a 60-day expiration on the tickets, as most places do. They could easily make it a year, which is the kind of basis many tourists visit Vegas.
I think, it is a huge general problem with how the laws are being made - overengineering. Most of the time, a law is drafted to address a specific problem, but for some reason, it usually does it in such an indirect way, that makes it not only inefficient dealing with that particular problem, but harmful to many adjacent areas.
If the problem is that the expiration is too short, the law should mandate it be longer.
Quote:Second, I view it like a dormant bank account. If the owner can't be found the money doesn't go back to the bank, it goes to the state.
But it isn't a bank account. The money in the bank account is your money, that you are letting the bank use. The casino does not have your money. It is their money, that they promised they'd pay you if you show up. If you don't show up, they should be able to keep it.
I think, this situation is more similar to a rebate you get sometimes when buying stuff. You pay $100 for a gizmo, and then, if you fill in a lengthy form, attach the original receipt, the UPC code, the photo of your grandfather, and a bunch of other stupid info, and mail it all to a specific PO box, they will give you 50 bucks back. And if you don't, or if you misspell the address, or attach the UPC to a wrong spot on the form, then you don't get the money. The state doesn't either. They simply get to keep it.
It is not unclaimed property. It is a contract, failed to be executed.
Quote:Third, while most casinos do quietly honor expired tickets, I can't get over that sometimes they don't, and the same for expired winning sports tickets. Talk about greedy, geez! The casinos don't deserve the money.
But if this law passes, even those that used to honor old tickets will have to stop. Who wins?
Quote: weaselmanBut it isn't a bank account. The money in the bank account is your money, that you are letting the bank use. The casino does not have your money. It is their money, that they promised they'd pay you if you show up. If you don't show up, they should be able to keep it.
So, if I'm cashing out a ticket on a machine for $1000, and a thief comes up behind me and grabs it, he has just stolen casino money? Or my money?
Quote: rxwine
So, if I'm cashing out a ticket on a machine for $1000, and a thief comes up behind me and grabs it, he has just stolen casino money? Or my money?
He stole your claim to casino money.
Same as if he stole your $50 rebate on the hard drive you bought from Amazon.
Quote: rxwineWhat is the policy if a player leaves a table game with a chip of his or hers still on it?
Quote: rxwineIs it in play, anywhere on the table? Even on a rail.
Apparently I misinterpreted your original question. In my earlier reply, I interpreted it as if a player left a wager on the table, not a chip on the rail. A chip on the table but not in a wager position could be interpreted in several ways, including as a placeholder for a player who plans to return soon.
Quote: weaselmanHe stole your claim to casino money.
Same as if he stole your $50 rebate on the hard drive you bought from Amazon.
A ticket is not a claim check--it's the same as cash. It's never the casino's money. If you put a hundy in a machine, don't play it then cash it out, it's just as much not the casino's money as if you won $800 and cashed it out.
Quote: RobSingerA ticket is not a claim check--it's the same as cash. It's never the casino's money. If you put a hundy in a machine, don't play it then cash it out, it's just as much not the casino's money as if you won $800 and cashed it out.
Sure. And if you exchange dollars for pounds at an exchange house in London, the pounds sterling are as much US dollars as if you hadn't done the exchange.
Think before you type. You'll live longer.
Quote: NareedSure. And if you exchange dollars for pounds at an exchange house in London, the pounds sterling are as much US dollars as if you hadn't done the exchange.
Think before you type. You'll live longer.
You know, every time I point out how you may be just a tad bit weak in an area you're trying to excel in, you get touchy.
Man up and accept it instead of jumping up and down.
Quote: RobSingerYou know, every time I point out how you may be just a tad bit weak in an area you're trying to excel in, you get touchy.
No, sweetie. You're not paying attention. i said "think before you type." Not ""type before you think."
Can you use a slot ticket as currency? Pay a bank loan with it?
No? Then it isn't money, but a claim on money the casino owes you. If someone hands you a signed check made out to cash for $100 in exchange for $100, do you have your money or a claim on the money he keeps at the bank?
Really. Think before you type.
Quote: RobSingerA ticket is not a claim check--it's the same as cash.
You may want to think that, but it is not true. A ticket is not same as cash. There are many differences, such as, cash not having expiration value or being able to be used in any place, not just a particular casino that printed it, cash being issued and backed by US government, not whoever has a printer, etc.
There is no point in repeating the "ticket is same as cash mantra", when it is clearly not.
Quote:If you put a hundy in a machine, don't play it then cash it out, it's just as much not the casino's money as if you won $800 and cashed it out.
Yes, this is correct. As soon as you put it into machine, it is casino's money.
Just like when you pay for new TV. Even if you get a rebate on it. Even if you decide to return it later. Until you do, it is the store's money, not yours, even if your mind is completely made up.
Quote: weaselmanYou may want to think that, but it is not true. A ticket is not same as cash. There are many differences, such as, cash not having expiration value or being able to be used in any place, not just a particular casino that printed it, cash being issued and backed by US government, not whoever has a printer, etc.
There is no point in repeating the "ticket is same as cash mantra", when it is clearly not.
Yes, this is correct. As soon as you put it into machine, it is casino's money.
Just like when you pay for new TV. Even if you get a rebate on it. Even if you decide to return it later. Until you do, it is the store's money, not yours, even if your mind is completely made up.
When I read things like these I wonder if some of you people ever really do go into casinos and gamble, or if you just lead your virtual gaming life out on the Internet. Having anything printed on a ticket such as a date, a casino name, or the owner's dog's name is irrelevant.
Contrary to what a few believe here, TITO's were not put in so that money you put into the machine automatically becomes the casino's money. They were put in first to eliminate overhead and employees, then to make it easier for the gambler to handle his cash. Initially it was put your money into the feeder and cash out coins. 50c & below was real cash; above that were tokens that are the same as a ticket today with different writing and feel. To help those still with clouds hovering, in a high-limit slot room you can easily give them $10,000 for a ticket to put into a machine. There's no purchase - as you're trying unsuccessfully to point out. If there were still were $10,000 bills they'd give you one of those instead.
Nareed, get over it.
Quote: RobSinger
Contrary to what a few believe here, TITO's were not put in so that money you put into the machine automatically becomes the casino's money. They were put in first to eliminate overhead and employees, then to make it easier for the gambler to handle his cash.
The purpose does not matter. I agree with you that they were not created specifically with the purpose of making the casino hold your money longer, it was just a side effect. But so what?
Quote:There's no purchase - as you're trying unsuccessfully to point out.
I am not trying to point it out, I don't know where you got that. Buying a gizmo with a rebate was just an analogy, but it is not the fact that there a purchase, that is analogous, but rather that you hold a written promise from an entity to pay some money to you on a certain condition, not the actual money.
TITO tickets are NOT cash. However, they are not claims to the casino's money either.
They are a receipt for cash on deposit.
Quote: DJTeddyBearMaybe I can find a middle ground that you both can agree on:
TITO tickets are NOT cash. However, they are not claims to the casino's money either.
They are a receipt for cash on deposit.
Well, yeah, they are a receipt ... It doesn't help much though, because there are too many different kinds of receipt. The class of to wide. It is almost as helpful as saying that they are pieces of paper with text printed on them.
Quote: DJTeddyBearMaybe I can find a middle ground that you both can agree on:
TITO tickets are NOT cash. However, they are not claims to the casino's money either.
They are a receipt for cash on deposit.
They're not cash--they're the same as cash. That's what I'm saying. They are never casino money at any time. That's why if it expires and they won't cash it in for you it becomes the casino's CASH, not the casino's paper ticket. It's simply destroyed.
But I'll accept your offer for a mediated truce and conclude here. Really not much else to say.
Quote: weaselmanI think, it is a huge general problem with how the laws are being made - overengineering. Most of the time, a law is drafted to address a specific problem, but for some reason, it usually does it in such an indirect way, that makes it not only inefficient dealing with that particular problem, but harmful to many adjacent areas.
A bigger problem is that there are too many laws being made. As kids we saw on "Schoolhouse Rock" that you can say, "there ought to be a law!" and you write your congressman, yadda yadda yadda. So we make all these laws. You have to wear your seatbelt. You have to wear a helmet on a mororcycle and now even a bicycle. Restauants can't serve food prepared the way they want. Its for your own good, there ought to be a law.
Why don't we just realize if you walk into a casino you know you must cash in your ticket. If dates are too short, don't go to that casino. If you arre really passionate, buy a casino (there are a few for sale) and make better rules. If people want those rules they will show up. This is the USA folks, we need more freedom, not more laws.
Quote: AZDuffmanIf you arre really passionate, buy a casino (there are a few for sale) and make better rules. If people want those rules they will show up. This is the USA folks, we need more freedom, not more laws.
Indeed. In my casino, the tickets would be valid for as long as they are inside the building. You want to take it home with you - cool, just consider it a really expensive souvenir :)
Quote: rxwineThe idea that just putting money in a machine makes it the casinos is one I'd like to see tested in court. Yeah, try to take the $500 I just put in your machine, buddy and call it yours, Mr Casino. (of course, I'm not talking about played money, simply money in the machine)
If you bought a movie ticket, but have not seen the movie yet, is the money you paid for it yours or the movie theater's?
Quote: weaselmanIf you bought a movie ticket, but have not seen the movie yet, is the money you paid for it yours or the movie theater's?
It's not the same. The money in the machine may or may not be used in its entirety, nor would anybody in their right mind think that whatever amount you put in the machine must be played through now that it's in the machine.
Quote: rxwineIt's not the same. The money in the machine may or may not be used in its entirety, nor would anybody in their right mind think that whatever amount you put in the machine must be played through now that it's in the machine.
Many places will refund your ticket, at least sometimes, if you did not like the movie ... Same thing?
Yeah, in normal circumstances, you could return the shoes. But what if the store closes / goes bankrupt?
If a casino closes / goes bankrupt, you should be able to submit a claim with the bankrupcy court for the value of the ticket (assuming it hasn't expired).
Anybody wanna test that theory with a newly obtained, uncashed Sahara ticket?
---
In the Sahara case, I would not be surprised to find public announcements stating where to go to cash in TITO and chips after the casino closes. A quick check of their website and I see info about the closing, but nothing about redemtion after they close.
Quote: rxwineQuestion for anyone.
What is the policy if a player leaves a table game with a chip of his or hers still on it? Seems like this would be relevant to TITO. (I don't know the answer, just asking)
i.e, that is, if they forget for some reason gather one up
Don't know if you got a good answer to this yet, but I actually witnessed this situation last weekend. My friend left $100+ in chips against the rail at a blackjack table when he stumbled off to the room to pass out. After 2 hours, the put boss took the chips to the cashier cage and left them there under my friend's name. The next morning he just showed his ID at the cashier and reclaimed them.
Quote: RobSingerNareed, get over it.
That's quite the devastating argument.
Google search "aleatory contract."
Quote: teddys
Google search "aleatory contract."
Nothing to do with this.
Quote: teddysPutting money into a slot machine does not make it the casino's money.
When you sit at a table game, you're buying chips to play with. You're exchanging cash for the casino's game currency. If you make a cash bet, which some casinos will allow you to do, you'd be paid in chips, not cash.
So when you put money into a slot machine you're buying electronic credits to play with. Same as above, you're exchanging cash for the casino's currency in that game. You're paid off in credits, too, not cash; that is, the machine doesn't spit out cash on each win. Now, just as you can take chips from BJ to play any other game, so you can take a slot ticket to play other slots.
Either way you gave your money to the casino in exchange for something, so until you cash out it's the casino's money. The difference is that chips don't expire but tickets do. If they could put an expiration date on chips, they'd do it.
I'll say it again, this time with emphasis. "Cash the f**** ticket when you're done playing."
Actually, they do. When the casino changes design to thrwart counterfieters, or in the case of the recent thefts, they post public notice that old chips must be redeemed within a certain time period.Quote: NareedThe difference is that chips don't expire but tickets do. If they could put an expiration date on chips, they'd do it.
Quote: DJTeddyBearActually, they do. When the casino changes design to thrwart counterfieters, or in the case of the recent thefts, they post public notice that old chips must be redeemed within a certain time period.
Good point.
I should ammend it to say chips don't have a definite expiration date.
I've been mulling a ticket cashing business. I don't think it would work at all. Too many casinos, too many logistical issues, and the tickets may be too small to be worth the comission you'd need to charge. besides, while you might get lots of tourists at the airport, there's no good place where the locals congregate en-masse.
A better choice, perhaps, would be to collect uncashed tickets for charity at the airport. People who'd rather lose $10 than to cash $9 if it profits the middle-man, might be willing to lose the full $10 to charity.
And of course I can think of two different scams to run with phoney tickets. But that's not a fit subject for discussion (and I might use it in a story yet; I want to write a story set in Vegas someday)
I normally make a point cashing out my tickets when I am done in any particular casino, mainly because I dont know if i will be back that way any time soon.
As to who should get any unredeemed tickets, personally I believe it depends on who would benefit most from the unclaimed money. If the casinos put the money to good use (ie not straight in the profit column) either giving it back to the players in some way then let them do so. However failing that let the state have it in the same way as dormant bank accounts. At least some good may come of that.
On a side note there is one ticfket I have never cashed out. Its one I kept for comedy effect for 0.02c. I used it in a few bars to literally throw in my two cents.
Quote: CroupierI normally make a point cashing out my tickets when I am done in any particular casino,
Hear, hear! (or however that goes)
Quote:As to who should get any unredeemed tickets, personally I believe it depends on who would benefit most from the unclaimed money. If the casinos put the money to good use (ie not straight in the profit column) either giving it back to the players in some way then let them do so.
Putting it into the casino's earnings is outting it to good use. Business always makes productive use of money, or tries to.
Quote:However failing that let the state have it in the same way as dormant bank accounts. At least some good may come of that.
Again, government does not make productive use of any money. There are some necessary government expenses, of course, but these days it will go to welfare or vote-buying (which tends to be the same thing). Remember the big settlement the government extracted from the tobacco companies? Do you know how much of that went to tobacco farmers? Want to bet if Nevada got a cut of uncashed tickets, lots of it would wind up in the Downtown money sink hole?
Quote: NareedPutting it into the casino's earnings is outting it to good use. Business always makes productive use of money, or tries to.
I am missing the sarcasm here.
Quote:Again, government does not make productive use of any money.
And here....
Government != waste, business != efficency
And to pretend that it does is leads to chaos and confusion.
Quote: thecesspitI am missing the sarcasm here.
Because there isn't any.
Quote:And here....
Government != waste, business != efficency
No, there are plenty of inefficient businesses. The diference is that, absent government intervention, they go out of business, go broke, or are acquired by other companies.
On the other hand a wasteful government tries to fix everything by wasting more money (ie buying more votes).
Quote: DJTeddyBearMaybe I can find a middle ground that you both can agree on:
TITO tickets are NOT cash. However, they are not claims to the casino's money either.
They are a receipt for cash on deposit.
More specifically, TITO tickets (as well as casino checks) are debt instruments. They are written evidence of a casino debt to the holder of the ticket or token. Thus, if I have a TITO ticket for $25, or a $25 green chip, both are evidence that the casino owes me $25 in currency. Moreover, I can collect that $25 on demand by surrendering the debt instrument at the cage.
However, casino checks may *not* be used as currency in non-gaming transactions. In Nevada, there's a specific law against this, though I can't remember where it is. I would expect that TITO tickets are treated equivalently.
Quote: MathExtremistHowever, casino checks may *not* be used as currency in non-gaming transactions. In Nevada, there's a specific law against this, though I can't remember where it is. I would expect that TITO tickets are treated equivalently.
Governments have traditionally been wary of creating new kinds of currency. The subway cards in Tokyo are now so common, that you can increasingly shop with them.
. The subway cards have almost become an alternate currency in Japan.The government prefers that you leave an easily traceable trail with your transactions. While it seems harmless enough to pay for a meal with your TITO card, I think that the state is worried about higher level cash transactions that may try and circumvent IRS rules.
Iceland with it's tiny population of 320K, could conceivably stop printing all it's larger bills and use a coded system on cell phones to pay for all transactions. They could keep their small banknote (US$8.77) and their coins for children and in case of emergency.
It may be efficient, but cash in Iceland had to more than double after the Icelandic banking crisis. It's a funny phenomena, since if the country goes bankrupt, the notes aren't worth any more than the bank accounts.
The state passed the law to reap the collection from unclaimed tickets.
Or at least I think it did. I'm not sure if something else has to happen, but it did pass as far as I know.
Quote: rxwineSpeaking of...
The state passed the law to reap the collection from unclaimed tickets.
Or at least I think it did. I'm not sure if something else has to happen, but it did pass as far as I know.
Looks like the Assembly passed it a while ago and the Senate just passed it on the 6th. So I guess it's awaiting the Governor's signature.
