Future of slots
Quote: Nareed... I went to a casino in monterrey, Mexico, called Casino Revolucion which ...
My post is off-topic for this thread, but this seems to be a reasonable spot to ask Nareed a question about casinos in Mexico. I have heard conflicting information, with one extreme being that casino gaming is illegal throughout the country. In contrast, I have read about a casino opened by Playboy in Cancun, apparently with standard table games operated live with cards, chips, roulette wheel, etc.
What's the straight scoop?
Quote: DocMy post is off-topic for this thread, but this seems to be a reasonable spot to ask Nareed a question about casinos in Mexico. I have heard conflicting information, with one extreme being that casino gaming is illegal throughout the country. In contrast, I have read about a casino opened by Playboy in Cancun, apparently with standard table games operated live with cards, chips, roulette wheel, etc.
What's the straight scoop?
No one really knows. there! Doesn't that settle all doubts?
Throughout the country there are lots of casinos offering slot machines and bingo. Many now offer automated roulette, electronic BJ, and electronic poker. There are sports books, too. There's a naitonal lottery with well over a century in existence, there's a lotto and sports betting government agency, there's private lotto now, there's massive carnival gambling in local fairs, there are race tracks in some cities. But no real table games with chips and dealers that I know of. Oh, and in places like Chetumal and other remote port cities there are casino boats stationed just over the territorial waters' limit.
Cancun, like Tijuana, is a free port. Rules are different there. For one thing you don't need a passport to enter either, and there are no import taxes. However, if you're traveling from Tijuana or Cancun to other parts of Mexico, you will need to show a passport (ot proof of Mexican citizenship) and undergo a customs inspection before being allowed to proceed.
In 1991, after correctly predicting the halting of large-scale hotel development in Hawaii, Mark moved to Colorado and began the development of the Bullwhackers Black Hawk and Bullwhackers Central City casinos. The total development cost exceeded $45,000,000 and both facilities were built in less than six months. As Bullwhackers' President, Mark oversaw the pre-opening efforts including the hiring of more than 900 employees, the development of a brand identification program, the approval of gaming licenses, and the construction of the facilities. After their opening in 1992, the Bullwhackers facilities quickly dominated their markets. By 1995 annual revenues approached $50,000,000 with an EBITDA of approximately $17,000,000.
In 1996 or there abouts Bullwhackers closed in Central City, By then then owned the only gas station within 16 miles of mountain roads and used it to promote their casino. Soon after Bullwhackers was sold to Penn National gaming, who was owned in large by by Ladbrokes. ( the Brits are coming LOL ) Since Penn National was one of the first racinos ( race track/casino) I was not surprised when the new ownership removed all the BJ tables. But was shocked when they closed what was a very successful poker room. The drop on poker tables was almost double that of BJ and attracted players who played slots heavily also.
Bullwhackers flourished enough to buy out Bronco Billy's ( shared a common wall ) renamed it the Bullwackers bullpen and all appeared to be going fine until 2008, then even the raise from $ 5 limit to $100 limit did not help. Bullpen is closed and Bullwhackers is not crowded even on the weekends.
Ameristar has 33% of the market in Blackhawk now. Also the largest number of BJ and poker tables, Hindsight is always 20-20 but bet Bullwhackers wish they had kept tables games intact.
Quote: WizardofEnglandThat was exactly my point! I think Jerry, sorry I mean Rob just misunderstood it in his typical Jerry way.
Oops I mean Rob. Sorry about that, I have no idea why I confuse the two of you....
Oh wait...
What was your point? Getting the name Jerry out there every chance you get? Rob's right. He has not been disrespectful to you. Can you say the same?
Quote: benbakdoffWhat was your point? Getting the name Jerry out there every chance you get? Rob's right. He has not been disrespectful to you. Can you say the same?
Your probably right, but he has been condescending and arrogant, which is just as bad in my book. I wont roll over and play to his games. Jerry will just have to find somewhere else to get his kicks.
Quote: MathExtremist
You can find the most recent revenue (win) numbers on the NGCB website. I did a ballpark and estimated that the average gaming table in NV makes about $64k/month. That's revenue. And that includes games like Bingo, which make no money (in Nevada, anyway). So if the average cost to operate a gaming table is less than $64k/month, including labor and maintenance costs, then the table has an operating profit.
You're number seems a bit dated since statewide Nevada has 5,510 table and $3.6 billion per year (or $54K per month).
Of course, since half the tables in the state are blackjack, they control the average revenue. On the face of it about 8.6 average slot machines bring in as much revenue as a single blackjack table, and with much lower labor costs. For small casinos, blackjack, poker and sports book are loss leaders. They add some atmosphere, but the casino makes money on slots.
| Statewide | $K /month | Slots to Replace |
|---|---|---|
| Twenty One | $29 | 8.6 |
| Roulette | $55 | 16.6 |
| 3-card | $47 | 14.1 |
| Craps | $80 | 24.1 |
| Baccarat | $374 | 112.3 |
| Mini-Bacc | $51 | 15.3 |
The average blackjack table in the state makes less than $1000/day. The tables in "small areas of the state" sometimes make half that amount. For instance the average table in downtown Vegas makes only $15K per month.
In Laughlin blackjack table revenue is $11K per month, while your average slot machine makes $4K per month (higher than state average). So clearly the blackjack tables are there just to add atmosphere. They probably are not open for most of the day.
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One of my ideas for an all table casino would be to have computer support for the blackjack tables. After each hand, these computers would display the correct play according to basic strategy, or even the "correct play" taking into account the hi-low count.
The players would be required to flat bet.
Would players be interested in such a game? If you take away a card counters ability to make larger bets there is no advantage to card counting. However, the player is still getting the advantage of hints on both basic strategy, and on composition based strategy or strategy based on count. I think that players would appreciate it as a learning experience, where the knowledge could be applied to other casinos. It would be a test of their card counting ability, they could get readouts on the computer screen to see if they are correct, but they won't be able to act on this knowledge because of the flat betting.
The cards would have to be readable by a scanner to feed the computer the information. However, they have that technology for several years.
The minimum bet would have to be at least $25 since you are paying for the technology and the relatively quiet environment.
The players who are eager to get some feedback on their play would happily play $25 flat bets. I think such a table could earn a lot more on a per day basis.
Quote: pacomartinOne of my ideas for an all table casino would be to have computer support for the blackjack tables. After each hand, these computers would display the correct play according to basic strategy, or even the "correct play" taking into account the hi-low count.
The players would be required to flat bet.
Would players be interested in such a game?
I'm sure there's commercial software available that does that, online or on a PC, for a lot less than $25 per hand. Most players would ratehr get that, practice at home and then try to fleece the casinos counting cards and varying bets for real. I don't like BJ, so take it for what it's worth.
The other thing is that I've found it's a lot cheaper to learn games before playing them for money.
Would players be interested in such a game?
Would you then rename the game GRIND , I mean the biggest payout in BJ is 3 to 2, and now flat bets only BORING !
Quote: Nareed
I'm sure there's commercial software available that does that, online or on a PC, for a lot less than $25 per hand. Most players would ratehr get that, practice at home and then try to fleece the casinos counting cards and varying bets for real. I don't like BJ, so take it for what it's worth.
The other thing is that I've found it's a lot cheaper to learn games before playing them for money.
I didn't say that it was the smartest thing in the world for a player to do, but most people don't have the desire or discipline to learn perfect strategy before they go to a casino.
There are many websites like hit or stand . But I've seen plenty of people who put down hundreds of dollars to make all kinds of wild bets that would know are incorrect if they spent $5 on a pocket size cheat sheet card. Plus most people do not know when to deviate from basic strategy based on hi-lo count. They would appreciate the feedback.
By my calculations 80 hands per with 5 people on average 18 hours a day, and 3 people on average 6 hours per day, time $25 per hand at a modest win rate of 49.6% player is $52K per month for the casino. I am attributing a fairly high win rate for the player (although not the theoretical maximum) since people will not be playing perfect play no matter how much advice they get. That is still triple the earning of the average blackjack table in downtown Vegas.
But the typical downtown Vegas BJ table is probably 80 hands per hour with 2 people on average 18 hours a day @ $10 per bet, and 1 person on average 6 hours a day @ $5 per bet, with a player win of 49.2%. That works out to $15K per month
Quote: pacomartinI didn't say that it was the smartest thing in the world for a player to do, but most people don't have the desire or discipline to learn perfect strategy before they go to a casino.
Because most people think they can read an article or book one day, have a practice session online or with a deck of cards the second day, and fleece the casinos off all their money the third day. Someone who's not serious about learning and perfecting a skill won't learn it, no matter if the learning happens at home or at the casino tables.
Quote:By my calculations 80 hands per with 5 people on average 18 hours a day, and 3 people on average 6 hours per day, time $25 per hand at a modest win rate of 49.6% player is $52K per month for the casino.
I'm not qualified to check on anybody's math. I'll take your word for it in lieu of a headache. But it does bring up the question: excepting whales and high rollers, what's the average BJ bet?
Quote: buzzpaffOK So I flat bet, have the best decision made for me etc. So I am no longer gambling. I am now investing in a losing proposition. Can I just mail the casino my expected loss and stay home ???
Would you just skip a craps game and just mail the casino your expected loss?
The computer tells you after you bet if you were correct or not. It's a learning experience.
Despite your cynicism, how is this any different than any other gaming experience? You know there is always a house edge and an expected loss. That is how the casino determines your comps.
The nature of the game is that you are still getting paid 3:2 for blackjack. You still have one of the lowest house edges in the casino. You are simply being told that in exchange for betting a minimum of $25 you get the added bonus of being able to double check your card counting ability and your decisions. Most amateurs don't have the bankroll to cover the variance if they are truly counting cards.
The requirement for flat betting is not that different than reality anyway. If you are playing a perfect game, and changing your bets from $100 to $600 in perfect synch with the count, then you are going to backed-off by the pit boss.
What this hypothetical casino would be doing is to simply make the real rules overt.
Many players only want to know when the cocktail waitress will be coming around again. Those players often know basic strategy cold. Or to be more precise, they would claim they know what basic strategy is but really have no idea nor any inclination to find out.
Would people like a sort of variable speed HitOrStand in the casino or maybe even in their home as a training device? Heck, look at how many people bought Thorpe's Beat The Dealer.
Quote: FleaStiffKnowing when to deviate from Basic Strategy due to Card Counting data? Many players only want to know when the cocktail waitress will be coming around again.
I am not trying to remake the entire industry into an imaginary vision.
Take Ellis Island Casino a casino without a hotel one block off the strip. It has an (8 oz) steak dinner with 5 breaded shrimp for $11. The gaming consists of 317 slot machines, 5 BJ tables, 1 roulette, and 1 craps table and a kiosk where you can place sports bets. Gaming revenue is under $1 million per month.
Clearly the slots make less than the Vegas Strip Average of $4757 per month per slot machine, because $4757*317 is about $1.5 million per month before the tables are included. Those 7 tables, using Strip averages would make $400K per month. Regardless of the exact makeup, the casino offers bare bones casino, and it undoubtedly makes most of it's money from slots even though the individual machines make much less per machine than Vegas strip average. This casino has nothing to offer except the cheap steak dinner and possibly lower minimums.
Would a revamped Ellis Island that offers something different draw the few hundred people per day from the strip that want both the cheap steak and a chance to play in a different environment for at least part of the day, make more than $1 million per month?
Is it simply that its "more of the same amidst lots of others"? Should it differentiate itself on gaming? Slots are an invitational necessity, but they don't have to be the emphasis. I don't know if more table games would work there or not. Better slots? Fewer slots?
I really think Ellis should stick to what it is, but improve its image and improve its odds. Keep the machines the way they are perhaps but make that slot club PAY generously. Or go through the hoops and make the machines pay off better.
I'd make it a computer program that rewards slot play in a similar manner to the way a casino wants someone to do three or four hours at a table game.
A generous reward for putting your money thru the machine but an incentive to not hog the machine because the reward declines after four hours.
I think the average person doesn't understand counting enough to even accept deviations when suggested by a computer that has been counting the cards. Hell, the average person doesn't even understand basic strategy enough!Quote: pacomartinOne of my ideas for an all table casino would be to have computer support for the blackjack tables. After each hand, these computers would display the correct play according to basic strategy, or even the "correct play" taking into account the hi-low count.
The players would be required to flat bet.
Would players be interested in such a game? If you take away a card counters ability to make larger bets there is no advantage to card counting. However, the player is still getting the advantage of hints on both basic strategy, and on composition based strategy or strategy based on count.
People are always asking other people "What does the 'book' say?" and not always getting the right answer. Having a system that shows the best basic strategy would be good.
But limit it to flat betting? You'd never get a casino to agree to such a thing. Novice gamblers want to bet larger when playing with winnings. And that's the easiest way for the casino to get it back!
Sorry you took constructive criticism as cynicism! Certainly was not intended that way !
Wicked Witch of the West: Ah! You'll believe in more than that before I'm finished with you.
Quote: FleaStiffEllis Island is supposed to have good beer, a good BBQ of some sort, an off-menu Locals Only special even better than the one you described, ... but it seems to be poorly marketed.
Is it simply that its "more of the same amidst lots of others"? Should it differentiate itself on gaming? Slots are an invitational necessity, but they don't have to be the emphasis. I don't know if more table games would work there or not. Better slots? Fewer slots?
I really think Ellis should stick to what it is, but improve its image and improve its odds. Keep the machines the way they are perhaps but make that slot club PAY generously. Or go through the hoops and make the machines pay off better.
I'd make it a computer program that rewards slot play in a similar manner to the way a casino wants someone to do three or four hours at a table game.
A generous reward for putting your money thru the machine but an incentive to not hog the machine because the reward declines after four hours.
Actually the food is very good here. The casino showed up in the NY times when there was a competition to see where people could stay around the country for very little money. The reporter ate there but didn't gamble. It was an example of how you could use the casinos to live and eat cheaply, but not give them any money in gaming. The company has 9 local pubs, and it also operates the Tuscany casino on the strip.
I was using this location, because it is one of three on the strip that makes less than a million dollars a month in gaming revenue, but more than $1 million per year. The question was could you do something novel with the space, besides simply offering a tiny version of what everyone else has, and making less money per machine and table than the big guys.
The gaming commission prints no information about a category with only 3 casinos as it may reveal information about a specific property. They do tell you how many slot machines and tables are licensed.
