Theguyoverthere
Theguyoverthere
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November 28th, 2023 at 12:54:23 PM permalink
I’ve recently been made aware that the slot machines in Washington state tribal casinos, such as Tulalip, are not actually class 3 games but a class 2 lottery style game… at least that’s what I’ve been told, and this website vaguely seems to validate that idea https://wsgc.wa.gov/tribal-gaming/tribal-lottery-system

Can anyone give more insight into this? Is this still the case? How can they have all these name brand slot machines like Buffalo? Are they specially programmed in reverse so they see a lottery result then come up with some spin to show that?

Can this be advantage played? If you see a group of people losing a lot should you sit down on the last machine in the group, having better odds than you would otherwise since eventually the “winning numbers” need to come?
DRich
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November 28th, 2023 at 1:31:48 PM permalink
The way they used to work was like a raffle. Picture a mechanical drum with 5000 tickets in it. 75% of the tickets are losers, one ticket is a jackpot. The rest of the tickets are small winners. Every time you play the slot machine a ticket is drawn from the drum. Whatever that tickets says is what you win. The slot machine then displays an outcome matching what your ticket said.

That's about it.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Deucekies
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November 28th, 2023 at 2:00:10 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

The way they used to work was like a raffle. Picture a mechanical drum with 5000 tickets in it. 75% of the tickets are losers, one ticket is a jackpot. The rest of the tickets are small winners. Every time you play the slot machine a ticket is drawn from the drum. Whatever that tickets says is what you win. The slot machine then displays an outcome matching what your ticket said.

That's about it.
link to original post



This can be demonstrated on "Video Poker" machines by the fact that you can be dealt a full house, throw it away, and draw another full house. Or in lieu thereof, hit the bonus match card and win a bonus equal to a full house.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
DRich
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November 28th, 2023 at 2:10:26 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Quote: DRich

The way they used to work was like a raffle. Picture a mechanical drum with 5000 tickets in it. 75% of the tickets are losers, one ticket is a jackpot. The rest of the tickets are small winners. Every time you play the slot machine a ticket is drawn from the drum. Whatever that tickets says is what you win. The slot machine then displays an outcome matching what your ticket said.

That's about it.
link to original post



This can be demonstrated on "Video Poker" machines by the fact that you can be dealt a full house, throw it away, and draw another full house. Or in lieu thereof, hit the bonus match card and win a bonus equal to a full house.
link to original post



Yes it can. I programmed video poker machines like that for the state of New York.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mental
Mental
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November 28th, 2023 at 2:34:36 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Deucekies

Quote: DRich

The way they used to work was like a raffle. Picture a mechanical drum with 5000 tickets in it. 75% of the tickets are losers, one ticket is a jackpot. The rest of the tickets are small winners. Every time you play the slot machine a ticket is drawn from the drum. Whatever that tickets says is what you win. The slot machine then displays an outcome matching what your ticket said.

That's about it.
link to original post



This can be demonstrated on "Video Poker" machines by the fact that you can be dealt a full house, throw it away, and draw another full house. Or in lieu thereof, hit the bonus match card and win a bonus equal to a full house.
link to original post



Yes it can. I programmed video poker machines like that for the state of New York.
link to original post

If there was just one drum and the players could see when the drum is refilled and when it is almost empty, then the OP's question is in play. You can game the system if you know the drum is nearly empty and is rich in big winners.

In real life, I expect that many virtual drums are in play for different machines and denominations. There is no way to know what drum is feeding results to any particular group of machines unless you are an insider. I assume that there are countermeasures to prevent insiders from gaming the system. If that is the case, outsiders probably have no chance to game the system just by observing machines in play.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
MrV
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November 28th, 2023 at 2:41:47 PM permalink
I note that some casinos, e.g.the Choctaw tribal one in Oklahoma IIRC, use this class of machine and their slots show what appears to be a bingo card layout toward the top, with numbers that change every bet.

I've no clue why that's there or whether any helpful info can be deduced from it.
"What, me worry?"
Mental
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November 28th, 2023 at 2:57:18 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I note that some casinos, e.g.the Choctaw tribal one in Oklahoma IIRC, use this class of machine and their slots show what appears to be a bingo card layout toward the top, with numbers that change every bet.

I've no clue why that's there or whether any helpful info can be deduced from it.
link to original post

I thought Bingo is different from the lottery in VLTs. Bingo and VLTs can be treated differently in gambling compacts.

If you see a bingo card, then you are playing bingo for all legal purposes. The Bingo is just mapped onto a slot game for entertainment purposes. Your result is determined by a bingo game. Even video poker can be mapped onto a bingo outcome through clever algorithms.

No bingo card? You are probably playing a VLT game. Different sections of the gambling laws apply to your game.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
rainman
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Theguyoverthere
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Mental
November 28th, 2023 at 3:42:03 PM permalink
Well that video certainly was interesting.

I’m not sure I buy the logic of “play by yourself so you can find the winning sub batch and keep it all to yourself”… since sub batches aren’t really the whole batch in my mind it’s useless to talk about anything not related to the whole batch, which sounds like it could be absolutely astronomical. Just because you see a bunch of winners in a sub batch does not give you any information on if it’s a “winning” or losing sub batch since they don’t have to follow any particular distribution, just all of them together have to.

This sort of makes me think advantage play might not be possible, especially if one “batch” is so large that it’s the entire casino’s slot machine pulls for the whole day.

This does however mean each pull of the handle is NOT a truly independent event, so like if you win a jackpot you know for certain you won’t hit another one that day (or are at least much less likely!)
rainman
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Mental
November 28th, 2023 at 3:48:08 PM permalink
I only posted it because its a pretty clear explanation about the types of games WA. has and how they work.
And I hate typing.
Mental
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November 28th, 2023 at 3:54:58 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

I live in WA. North of Seattle
Here is a good link for OP or anyone who has interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNApuUKeDpg

Maybe around 6-9 months ago the first E table game showed up it was roulette, its bingo.
https://gaming.itsgames.com/company/news/incredible-technologies-launches-first-ever-class-ii-electronic-table-game
https://gamingamerica.com/news/7928/incredible-technologies-rolls-out-true-pick-roulette-in-washington-state
https://gaming.itsgames.com/hardware/grand-crystal-2
link to original post

I came away thinking Professor Slots is an idiot, but I did learn something about the number of tickets in a batch.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
rainman
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November 28th, 2023 at 4:07:51 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: rainman

I live in WA. North of Seattle
Here is a good link for OP or anyone who has interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNApuUKeDpg

Maybe around 6-9 months ago the first E table game showed up it was roulette, its bingo.
https://gaming.itsgames.com/company/news/incredible-technologies-launches-first-ever-class-ii-electronic-table-game
https://gamingamerica.com/news/7928/incredible-technologies-rolls-out-true-pick-roulette-in-washington-state
https://gaming.itsgames.com/hardware/grand-crystal-2
link to original post

I came away thinking Professor Slots is an idiot, but I did learn something about the number of tickets in a batch.
link to original post




I think P-slots is trying to make money by presenting himself as EB does he eludes to knowing the secret sauce
and never gives it away, but reassures viewers they can find it.
Last edited by: rainman on Nov 28, 2023
Mukke
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November 28th, 2023 at 4:37:03 PM permalink
Quote: rainman


Maybe around 6-9 months ago the first E table game showed up it was roulette, its bingo.
https://gaming.itsgames.com/company/news/incredible-technologies-launches-first-ever-class-ii-electronic-table-game
https://gamingamerica.com/news/7928/incredible-technologies-rolls-out-true-pick-roulette-in-washington-state
https://gaming.itsgames.com/hardware/grand-crystal-2
link to original post



This is mind boggling. I was looking through the help screens earlier and noticed it mentioned the play was determined by bingo.

But how on earth do they manage to do that? There's a physical ball involved. The ball is sent spinning like on a regular roulette table and goes FAST! That's some incredible math it would take to predetermine the result and then lunch the ball exactly so it bounces around and ends up in the right pocket.
Deucekies
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November 28th, 2023 at 4:49:12 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

I live in WA. North of Seattle
Here is a good link for OP or anyone who has interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNApuUKeDpg

Maybe around 6-9 months ago the first E table game showed up it was roulette, its bingo.
https://gaming.itsgames.com/company/news/incredible-technologies-launches-first-ever-class-ii-electronic-table-game
https://gamingamerica.com/news/7928/incredible-technologies-rolls-out-true-pick-roulette-in-washington-state
https://gaming.itsgames.com/hardware/grand-crystal-2
link to original post



So does ETG roulette in WA behave the same as normal roulette, or is there some Class II trickery going on there too? I've been playing it for a few months, and my results seem no different than a normal table. I've preferred ETG to live roulette because the comps tend to be better.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Dieter
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Dieter
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November 28th, 2023 at 4:52:00 PM permalink
Quote: Mental


If you see a bingo card, then you are playing bingo for all legal purposes. The Bingo is just mapped onto a slot game for entertainment purposes. Your result is determined by a bingo game. Even video poker can be mapped onto a bingo outcome through clever algorithms.
link to original post


(snip)

Some of the bingo slot games are very interesting.
Some of the bingo slot games are enjoyable.

There are usually separate Help/Rules screens for the Entertainment Display - the reels/lines/symbols - and the Bingo Game. If you didn't get to "Bingo Rules", you probably have no idea what is going on.

I have had AP's tell me they can't find an edge at Class II.
I have had other players tell me they make their living from Class II.
I think it's safe to say that there's a lot going on, and there is some nontrivial analysis required.
May the cards fall in your favor.
rainman
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November 28th, 2023 at 4:53:36 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke

Quote: rainman


Maybe around 6-9 months ago the first E table game showed up it was roulette, its bingo.
https://gaming.itsgames.com/company/news/incredible-technologies-launches-first-ever-class-ii-electronic-table-game
https://gamingamerica.com/news/7928/incredible-technologies-rolls-out-true-pick-roulette-in-washington-state
https://gaming.itsgames.com/hardware/grand-crystal-2
link to original post



This is mind boggling. I was looking through the help screens earlier and noticed it mentioned the play was determined by bingo.

But how on earth do they manage to do that? There's a physical ball involved. The ball is sent spinning like on a regular roulette table and goes FAST! That's some incredible math it would take to predetermine the result and then lunch the ball exactly so it bounces around and ends up in the right pocket.
link to original post




I sat down put twenty in it, put bets out and then pulled them back before the timer ran out.
I started to think about it and my mind instantly boggled, luckily friends were barking at me
to go so I left before I suffered any brain damage.
AxelWolf
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November 28th, 2023 at 4:57:25 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

I only posted it because its a pretty clear explanation about the types of games WA. has and how they work.
And I hate typing.
link to original post

I'm seeing/saw many IGT slots in washing that don't have any noticeable bingo mechanism. I haven't done the proper research on whether they are class 3, but the vultures seem to play those machines the same way you would a class 3 machine. Is there a mix of class 2 and 3 machines?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
rainman
rainman
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November 28th, 2023 at 5:04:40 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Quote: rainman

I live in WA. North of Seattle
Here is a good link for OP or anyone who has interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNApuUKeDpg

Maybe around 6-9 months ago the first E table game showed up it was roulette, its bingo.
https://gaming.itsgames.com/company/news/incredible-technologies-launches-first-ever-class-ii-electronic-table-game
https://gamingamerica.com/news/7928/incredible-technologies-rolls-out-true-pick-roulette-in-washington-state
https://gaming.itsgames.com/hardware/grand-crystal-2
link to original post



So does ETG roulette in WA behave the same as normal roulette, or is there some Class II trickery going on there too? I've been playing it for a few months, and my results seem no different than a normal table. I've preferred ETG to live roulette because the comps tend to be better.
link to original post




I don't know I'm hoping for some of the big brains here to figure it out that's why I brought
it up. I think I will go back Friday or Saturday take another look.
rainman
rainman
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November 28th, 2023 at 5:08:54 PM permalink
Class 2 and 3 yes however all as regulated must be Bingo or Scratch off style
Theguyoverthere
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November 28th, 2023 at 5:20:40 PM permalink
Seems like a contradiction but what that video said was class 3 games powered by scratch tickets exist, and all games in Washington behave this way… I thought class 3 by definition meant independent events? What does class 3 mean exactly? Not bingo?
AxelWolf
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November 28th, 2023 at 5:23:22 PM permalink
Quote: Theguyoverthere

Seems like a contradiction but what that video said was class 3 games powered by scratch tickets exist, and all games in Washington behave this way… I thought class 3 by definition meant independent events? What does class 3 mean exactly? Not bingo?
link to original post

I pretty much have the same question, I guess I just assumed class 3 was class 3 and they were all the same I didn't realize there were different classes of class 3. Or do they somehow behave exactly like an RNG even though they're considered scratch tickets?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
heatmap
heatmap
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November 28th, 2023 at 5:31:16 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Theguyoverthere

Seems like a contradiction but what that video said was class 3 games powered by scratch tickets exist, and all games in Washington behave this way… I thought class 3 by definition meant independent events? What does class 3 mean exactly? Not bingo?
link to original post

I pretty much have the same question, I guess I just assumed class 3 was class 3 and they were all the same I didn't realize there were different classes of class 3. Or do they somehow behave exactly like an RNG even though they're considered scratch tickets?
link to original post



ive been trying to define this ever since ive been here... but fully random to me does not necessarily mean its not a scratch ticket... fully random i think in this case means that the "drum of tickets" are dynamically refilled whereas the class two has a limited amount of tickets

but im waiting for the correct response as well

or maybe we should go back to the indian definition... class 2 is bingo or SOCIAL games... class 3 is anything that isnt bingo or "banked" games

edit

yeah i think the issue here is that we all define in our own minds that all casino games can be classified as CLASS whatever... but thats just how INDIAN casinos classify their games... not how EVERYONE or every jurisdiction defines their games outside of indian casinos
AxelWolf
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November 28th, 2023 at 5:33:07 PM permalink
Depending on the situation I wouldn't avoid playing a Class 2 machine given the right circumstances, the overall payback is the overall Payback and it's probably random enough to overcome the house advantage given the right promotions and situations. What would probably mess me up would be hit frequencies on particular hands that I know what they should be. For four-of-kind on video poker, I can no longer assume it's a little over 400 hands therefore I'd be fairly careful playing a promotion where they were giving me a bonus on hitting four-of-a-kind since the cycle could be quadruple what it normally should be.

Oddly enough, I've seen multiple Advantage players pass on decent 100% lost rebates solely because it was a class two joint. That's a big head-scratcher to me, I must assume it has somewhere near the same value as playing a class 3. I can think of almost no realistic scenarios where playing a Los rebate on Class 2 is -EV. I guess if somebody's stupid enough to play one penny at a time until their funds are completely gone and now they have to run the rebate free play on negative EV Games.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
heatmap
heatmap
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November 28th, 2023 at 6:10:30 PM permalink
HO LEEE FUDGE guys THIS IS THE THREAD THAT WILL END ALL THREADS

THIS IS FREAGGIN PHYSICAL ROULETTE WHEEL THAT IS CONNECTED TO A BINGO SYSTEM

HOW
Dieter
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Dieter
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November 28th, 2023 at 6:34:00 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

HO LEEE FUDGE guys THIS IS THE THREAD THAT WILL END ALL THREADS

THIS IS FREAGGIN PHYSICAL ROULETTE WHEEL THAT IS CONNECTED TO A BINGO SYSTEM

HOW
link to original post



Maybe missed it... which manufacturer?
Is there a photo?

Otherwise...
May the cards fall in your favor.
heatmap
heatmap
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November 28th, 2023 at 6:52:33 PM permalink
"incredible technologies" ... on their website though it does not mention "true pick roulette" only what seems to be the class 3 physical roulette wheels ... but i dont know as of this point

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/incredible-technologies_true-pick-roulette-is-now-live-at-the-point-activity-7085675427649781760-8a2u?trk=public_profile_like_view

https://gamingamerica.com/news/7928/incredible-technologies-rolls-out-true-pick-roulette-in-washington-state

DRich
DRich
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November 29th, 2023 at 3:36:49 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: DRich

Quote: Deucekies

Quote: DRich

The way they used to work was like a raffle. Picture a mechanical drum with 5000 tickets in it. 75% of the tickets are losers, one ticket is a jackpot. The rest of the tickets are small winners. Every time you play the slot machine a ticket is drawn from the drum. Whatever that tickets says is what you win. The slot machine then displays an outcome matching what your ticket said.

That's about it.
link to original post



This can be demonstrated on "Video Poker" machines by the fact that you can be dealt a full house, throw it away, and draw another full house. Or in lieu thereof, hit the bonus match card and win a bonus equal to a full house.
link to original post



Yes it can. I programmed video poker machines like that for the state of New York.
link to original post

If there was just one drum and the players could see when the drum is refilled and when it is almost empty, then the OP's question is in play. You can game the system if you know the drum is nearly empty and is rich in big winners.

In real life, I expect that many virtual drums are in play for different machines and denominations. There is no way to know what drum is feeding results to any particular group of machines unless you are an insider. I assume that there are countermeasures to prevent insiders from gaming the system. If that is the case, outsiders probably have no chance to game the system just by observing machines in play.
link to original post



What many places did was to replace the drum once it was x% depleted.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mental
Mental
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November 29th, 2023 at 4:14:05 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Mental

Quote: DRich

Quote: Deucekies

Quote: DRich

The way they used to work was like a raffle. Picture a mechanical drum with 5000 tickets in it. 75% of the tickets are losers, one ticket is a jackpot. The rest of the tickets are small winners. Every time you play the slot machine a ticket is drawn from the drum. Whatever that tickets says is what you win. The slot machine then displays an outcome matching what your ticket said.

That's about it.
link to original post



This can be demonstrated on "Video Poker" machines by the fact that you can be dealt a full house, throw it away, and draw another full house. Or in lieu thereof, hit the bonus match card and win a bonus equal to a full house.
link to original post



Yes it can. I programmed video poker machines like that for the state of New York.
link to original post

If there was just one drum and the players could see when the drum is refilled and when it is almost empty, then the OP's question is in play. You can game the system if you know the drum is nearly empty and is rich in big winners.

In real life, I expect that many virtual drums are in play for different machines and denominations. There is no way to know what drum is feeding results to any particular group of machines unless you are an insider. I assume that there are countermeasures to prevent insiders from gaming the system. If that is the case, outsiders probably have no chance to game the system just by observing machines in play.
link to original post



What many places did was to replace the drum once it was x% depleted.
link to original post

That means the casino is taking more risk than if they fill the drum with a certain value of tickets and sell them all. However, it would prevent the silly AP idea of Professor Slots from being implemented even with full insider knowledge. I guess that is the point.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Mukke
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November 29th, 2023 at 9:32:46 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

HO LEEE FUDGE guys THIS IS THE THREAD THAT WILL END ALL THREADS

THIS IS FREAGGIN PHYSICAL ROULETTE WHEEL THAT IS CONNECTED TO A BINGO SYSTEM

HOW
link to original post



Maybe missed it... which manufacturer?
Is there a photo?
link to original post



Heatmap shared this article which has a good picture:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/incredible-technologies_true-pick-roulette-is-now-live-at-the-point-activity-7085675427649781760-8a2u?trk=public_profile_like_view

I will try to get a video of the game in action. But yeah, that's a real wheel, a real ball and I really don't believe there's any bingo involved in the selection of the number. Maybe the bingo simply decides WHEN to fire the ball and how fast, rather then directly deciding the number.

Also, maybe just to call out the obvious: whether the roulette is bingo or not doesn't really impact the outcome. The mapping from Bingo to Roulette is either completely fair (i.e. same distribution and probabilities as real roulette) or unfair. If it's unfair that would make it very voulnerable. This is a multiplayer game, so it's not like they can just artificially change the RTP and create more player losses like they can with bingo based video poker.
Dieter
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Dieter
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November 29th, 2023 at 9:58:51 AM permalink
Quote: Mukke

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

HO LEEE FUDGE guys THIS IS THE THREAD THAT WILL END ALL THREADS

THIS IS FREAGGIN PHYSICAL ROULETTE WHEEL THAT IS CONNECTED TO A BINGO SYSTEM

HOW
link to original post



Maybe missed it... which manufacturer?
Is there a photo?
link to original post



Heatmap shared this article which has a good picture:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/incredible-technologies_true-pick-roulette-is-now-live-at-the-point-activity-7085675427649781760-8a2u?trk=public_profile_like_view

I will try to get a video of the game in action. But yeah, that's a real wheel, a real ball and I really don't believe there's any bingo involved in the selection of the number. Maybe the bingo simply decides WHEN to fire the ball and how fast, rather then directly deciding the number.

Also, maybe just to call out the obvious: whether the roulette is bingo or not doesn't really impact the outcome. The mapping from Bingo to Roulette is either completely fair (i.e. same distribution and probabilities as real roulette) or unfair. If it's unfair that would make it very voulnerable. This is a multiplayer game, so it's not like they can just artificially change the RTP and create more player losses like they can with bingo based video poker.
link to original post



Yeah, I think I saw that too late.
I've no idea how the mechanics work.
I'd like to get a look at a few spins, but I'm in no mood to go track down a property this is placed at to watch it for a while.

The manufacturer website seems to make the Class II equipment look very very similar to the Nevada style equipment.
Still hoping for a video to appear... -D
May the cards fall in your favor.
heatmap
heatmap
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November 29th, 2023 at 9:59:28 AM permalink
Quote: Mukke

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

HO LEEE FUDGE guys THIS IS THE THREAD THAT WILL END ALL THREADS

THIS IS FREAGGIN PHYSICAL ROULETTE WHEEL THAT IS CONNECTED TO A BINGO SYSTEM

HOW
link to original post



Maybe missed it... which manufacturer?
Is there a photo?
link to original post



Heatmap shared this article which has a good picture:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/incredible-technologies_true-pick-roulette-is-now-live-at-the-point-activity-7085675427649781760-8a2u?trk=public_profile_like_view

I will try to get a video of the game in action. But yeah, that's a real wheel, a real ball and I really don't believe there's any bingo involved in the selection of the number. Maybe the bingo simply decides WHEN to fire the ball and how fast, rather then directly deciding the number.

Also, maybe just to call out the obvious: whether the roulette is bingo or not doesn't really impact the outcome. The mapping from Bingo to Roulette is either completely fair (i.e. same distribution and probabilities as real roulette) or unfair. If it's unfair that would make it very voulnerable. This is a multiplayer game, so it's not like they can just artificially change the RTP and create more player losses like they can with bingo based video poker.
link to original post



im not really caring about if its fair... but IF IT IS mapped to an outcome then they know how to get that ball into a specific cup. Thats all im worried about. Once that is confirmed then I can hopefully scour some patents for exactly how they direct that ball into a specific hole.
heatmap
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November 29th, 2023 at 10:11:28 AM permalink
found another photo... which specifically says class 2 on the display



owner briefly speaks about their new market (class II ETGs) at 3:55



quick edit and thought - the ball lands and then that number it lands on picks a random bingo card outcome... possibly

Last edited by: heatmap on Nov 29, 2023
Theguyoverthere
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November 29th, 2023 at 9:44:30 PM permalink
I’ll try and remember to ask about this when the live AMA happens but if I don’t, I’d love to know the answers from the Wizard since I think he lives in Washington? Specifically the questions:
1. Are all the games at a place like tulalip run by a drum of scratch tickets, even games that claim are class 3 and look and act like regular games like Buffalo?

2. If they are, how do the games reverse engineer payouts? Is there a table that looks up a win value and chooses a pre determined bonus sequence or reel stops?

3. Can this be used in an advantage way? Is there something even as simple as “avoid playing if multiple people in the casino just hit a bunch of jackpots”?

Thanks!
avianrandy
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November 29th, 2023 at 10:59:43 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Quote: rainman

I live in WA. North of Seattle
Here is a good link for OP or anyone who has interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNApuUKeDpg

Maybe around 6-9 months ago the first E table game showed up it was roulette, its bingo.
https://gaming.itsgames.com/company/news/incredible-technologies-launches-first-ever-class-ii-electronic-table-game
https://gamingamerica.com/news/7928/incredible-technologies-rolls-out-true-pick-roulette-in-washington-state
https://gaming.itsgames.com/hardware/grand-crystal-2
link to original post



So does ETG roulette in WA behave the same as normal roulette, or is there some Class II trickery going on there too? I've been playing it for a few months, and my results seem no different than a normal table. I've preferred ETG to live roulette because the comps tend to be better.
link to original post

heatmap
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November 30th, 2023 at 5:19:36 AM permalink
im just waiting for someone to post a video because im assuming that we will see one of two configurations that ETG roulette wheels follow... one of them being air ... a stream of air is able to blow the ball up on to the track and then rotates to get it to spin around the track until the air is turned off and the ball then falls back into a "random" hole... the other being a more complicated process where the middle section of the wheel moves below into the wheel, the ball falls into the wheel and gets moved up into a place where it can be shot out

and of course there are some niche wheels that function a bit differently but these wheels are what i call the standard ETG wheels and how they work

https://www.cammegh.com/our-products/roulette-wheels/slingshot-2/

Quote:

Perfect for integration with 3rd party betting terminals or online installation, the Slingshot 2 automatic roulette wheel uses air jets to launch and retrieve the ball, keeping it in view at all times to uphold player confidence. This elegant, GLI-approved innovation allows for random ball speeds in both directions and Cammegh’s unique RRS system adds a further layer of security by randomising the speed of the rotor.

For added flexibility, the Slingshot 2 is available in two variants. The standard model is mounted on top of a floor-standing frame, which houses the air compressor and is designed to fit inside an outer drum or 3rd party betting terminal carousel.

For installation on a standard roulette table or within a quieter environment, Cammegh provide the Slingshot 2 TT (table top), which shares the principle design of its floor-standing sibling, with the option of a push-button launch, and allows the air compressor to be housed up to 20 metres away.




https://tcsjohnhuxley.com/product/saturn-auto-roulette-wheel/

Quote:

The world’s only compact tabletop automatic Roulette Wheel
Same footprint as the Saturn™ Wheel
Three discreet embedded sensors to detect winning numbers
Safe and secure 24-hour operation
Easily integrates with third-party EGT systems
Patented ball launch system that increases game randomness
Eye-catching Built-in LED lights to indicate game status.
Three operation modes, Remote (controlled by server), Manual (controlled by Control Box), and Automatic (system driven), the Saturn™ Auto is a versatile Roulette wheel perfect for all casino environments
Perfect for land-based or online gaming environments
Fully contained unit, no additional compressor or equipment required


rainman
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November 30th, 2023 at 12:01:36 PM permalink
I have video got it yesterday evening. I don't know how good it is must review it will also need to be edited.
I actually got heat I think because I was looking goofy. So the slot guy was super cool and I directly engaged
him about how it works he was knowledgeable but couldn't explain what appears to be an un gaffed wheel
paying me on a single spin red/black wager under bingo conditions. You can cycle a menu and pick a bingo card
from I think three options after placing a bet. You can also just place your bet not pick and continue the game
maybe it default picks for you.

Slot guy actually called the head slot suit to see if she could help explain it but she was having difficulty
understanding the finer points of what we were talking about. I wish I could post the whole 20min video
So you guys could see me charm & disarm them they actually said they would look into it and try and get
an answer for me if I would come back we know how that ends though.

Hurdles:
Video needs editing I would need to find free software never done it before.
Need to upload never uploaded a video it would probably be easiest to send it to someone
to post if I get it edited also at this point unsure of video quality it was a shirt pocket operation
so no wide format.


Edit:
It states that to play a game of bingo it requires two players however I was the only one
playing. Linked?
Mukke
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November 30th, 2023 at 12:28:34 PM permalink
Quote: rainman


It states that to play a game of bingo it requires two players however I was the only one
playing. Linked?
link to original post



Pretty much every bingo based slot machine has this requirement to have at least 2 players playing in the "bingo" game. I don't know exactly how this is implemented but it's very rarely an issue even if you go to the casino Wednesday at 5 am.

You can compare multiple machines and see that often times, adjacent machines of the same "type" are pulling the same bingo numbers. I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised if many machines across the floor are also pulling the same numbers.

Btw, when the bingo machines say you are playing against other players (and that's why you need at least 2 people), that doesn't generally mean that other people must lose for you to win. Form my observations and theorizing, the "competitive" game seems less consequential (sometimes I think it just determines when the bingo game "ends" and in other cases I think it decides who (if anyone) wins 1 cent), as the actual prize payout is determined by the pattern you achieve on your board.

As for selecting a board, there are generally 2 ways bingo machines work:

1) Each machine has a bingo board - you can click and randomly get a new one. Until you do, you keep the same board for every spin. Each bing game (which runs every ~1-2 seconds) will have new numbers drawn. If you look at the machine next to you, and you click spin at roughly the same time, you will notice that 1 machine will have a slightly longer delay before it stops the reels. I.e. if you click spin half a second apart, both machines will still stop the wheels at the same time, with the same numbers drawn.

2) Each machine get a new RANDOM bingo board with every game. The numbers draw between games are the same, except every 1-5 seconds, an additional number is added to the "fixed" numbers drawn. Once 70 (or some other number, depends on the game) have been drawn, the next batch of ~30 numbers are drawn, and more numbers to this new fixed batch are added every few seconds again. In this version, 2 machines do not need to wait for "the next round". As soon as you spin, you get a new board and it plays with the known numbers. If you play fast, you get multiple games with exactly the same set of known numbers drawn. but since you get a random board with every game, it doesn't really matter.
heatmap
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November 30th, 2023 at 1:10:23 PM permalink
if i had to program it a certain way i might randomly assign a bingo card for every number

it would still be just like somone bought multiple bingo cards and whatever numbers they pick they are actually banking on that single card winning

although ive never programmed a casino game or a bingo game so yeah
Last edited by: heatmap on Nov 30, 2023
rainman
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November 30th, 2023 at 1:54:23 PM permalink
Thanks Mukke. Super informative post gained a lot from that one.

What about the physical wheel? Bingo games including this one always state
all visuals are for entertainment only is the wheel gaffed? From limited observation
it is indistinguishable from any other legit wheel.

If the wheel isn't gaffed How would it work?
I sat down bet red wheel spins ball lands red I get paid 1-1 where's the bingo?
Dieter
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avianrandy
November 30th, 2023 at 2:33:53 PM permalink
I haven't checked - does Washington Gaming have any documents on public file?

Rainman, any chance you got still photos of the Bingo Rules screens? (We can probably hold off on the paytable mappings - whether or not something seems quite interesting)
May the cards fall in your favor.
heatmap
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November 30th, 2023 at 8:52:39 PM permalink
i cant find anything even related to that company doing business in washington state as of this point
miplet
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December 5th, 2023 at 2:07:59 AM permalink
From what I could tell from my limited time playing these it uses where the ball lands as the bingo ball drawn with 37=0 and 38=00.

Sample Even card
21830107
243462614
273211229
16420338
3612253828


Sample odd card
1172996
233352513
263110218
15319327
3511243727


The winning 1 ball patterns correspond to to just the odd or even spaces.

You are just buying cards with various single ball winning patterns.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
Mukke
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miplet
December 5th, 2023 at 11:45:15 AM permalink


I was unable to find the actual bingo board or anything else related to Bingo on this machine, other than this help text. On ordinary slot machines that are bingo based, you are usually able to find the bingo board played, but I could not find it in this case.
rainman
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December 5th, 2023 at 1:03:51 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke



I was unable to find the actual bingo board or anything else related to Bingo on this machine, other than this help text. On ordinary slot machines that are bingo based, you are usually able to find the bingo board played, but I could not find it in this case.
link to original post



Bingo boards can be found on the far left there is a couple of buttons to access it pops em up.
Theguyoverthere
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December 6th, 2023 at 3:41:42 PM permalink
Quote: Theguyoverthere

I’ll try and remember to ask about this when the live AMA happens but if I don’t, I’d love to know the answers from the Wizard since I think he lives in Washington? Specifically the questions:
1. Are all the games at a place like tulalip run by a drum of scratch tickets, even games that claim are class 3 and look and act like regular games like Buffalo?

2. If they are, how do the games reverse engineer payouts? Is there a table that looks up a win value and chooses a pre determined bonus sequence or reel stops?

3. Can this be used in an advantage way? Is there something even as simple as “avoid playing if multiple people in the casino just hit a bunch of jackpots”?

Thanks!
link to original post



Going back to slot machines running on the tribal lottery system (not bingo), does anyone know the answers to any of these questions? And I’ll add a fourth… What *is* a class 3 game?
DRich
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December 6th, 2023 at 3:46:42 PM permalink
Quote: Theguyoverthere



Going back to slot machines running on the tribal lottery system (not bingo), does anyone know the answers to any of these questions? And I’ll add a fourth… What *is* a class 3 game?
link to original post



Class 3 machines are truly random like you would find in Vegas or Atlantic City. The outcome is not based on anything other than the RNG
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Theguyoverthere
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December 6th, 2023 at 3:51:06 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Theguyoverthere



Going back to slot machines running on the tribal lottery system (not bingo), does anyone know the answers to any of these questions? And I’ll add a fourth… What *is* a class 3 game?
link to original post



Class 3 machines are truly random like you would find in Vegas or Atlantic City. The outcome is not based on anything other than the RNG
link to original post



That’s what I thought but I’ve seen things (like in that professor slots video) saying that the class 3 games in Washington use a scratch ticket method, which would appear to be a contradiction
Dieter
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calwatch
December 6th, 2023 at 4:04:28 PM permalink
Quote: Theguyoverthere


What *is* a class 3 game?
link to original post



How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

At this point, I generally view Class II/Class III as a tax category distinction, where Class II revenue is shared at one rate, and Class III revenue is shared at another.
(Yes, there is more to it.)

Class III gaming requires a compact (treaty) between the tribe and the state government. These are usually public record, and fascinating (or soporific) to read, depending on your mood and inclination.
May the cards fall in your favor.
heatmap
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Dieter
December 6th, 2023 at 5:22:44 PM permalink
Quote: Theguyoverthere

Quote: Theguyoverthere

I’ll try and remember to ask about this when the live AMA happens but if I don’t, I’d love to know the answers from the Wizard since I think he lives in Washington? Specifically the questions:
1. Are all the games at a place like tulalip run by a drum of scratch tickets, even games that claim are class 3 and look and act like regular games like Buffalo?

2. If they are, how do the games reverse engineer payouts? Is there a table that looks up a win value and chooses a pre determined bonus sequence or reel stops?

3. Can this be used in an advantage way? Is there something even as simple as “avoid playing if multiple people in the casino just hit a bunch of jackpots”?

Thanks!
link to original post



Going back to slot machines running on the tribal lottery system (not bingo), does anyone know the answers to any of these questions? And I’ll add a fourth… What *is* a class 3 game?
link to original post



Well as of this point we should all be focusing on Washington and their definitions

https://wsgc.wa.gov/tribal-gaming

Quote:

Tribal Gaming
In the fall of 1988, President Reagan signed into law the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (IGRA). This confirmed the rights of tribes to conduct gaming on Indian lands and required states and tribes to enter into a compact (contract) for certain types of gaming. IGRA also created three classes of Indian gaming and provided for a different regulatory framework for each class.

Class III (Nevada-style) gaming includes activities such as lotteries, casino games, house-banked card games, horse racing, pari-mutuel wagering, off-track betting, keno, machine gaming, and sports wagering. Tribal-state Class III gaming compacts between each tribe and the state outline: the style of gaming allowed, standards of operation, criminal and civil jurisdiction, state regulation fees and remedies for breach of compact.

Class II gaming includes bingo, pull-tabs, punch boards, tip jars and other games similar to bingo. Card games that are not banked by the house are considered Class II. Regulation of these games is within tribal jurisdiction, subject to oversight by the National Indian Gaming Commission.

Traditional or ceremonial Class I gaming remains within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Indian tribes. These are social games played solely for prizes of minimal value or traditional forms of Indian gaming connected to tribal ceremonies or celebrations.

rainman
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Dieter
December 6th, 2023 at 6:09:39 PM permalink
Quote: Theguyoverthere

Quote: Theguyoverthere

I’ll try and remember to ask about this when the live AMA happens but if I don’t, I’d love to know the answers from the Wizard since I think he lives in Washington? Specifically the questions:
1. Are all the games at a place like tulalip run by a drum of scratch tickets, even games that claim are class 3 and look and act like regular games like Buffalo?

2. If they are, how do the games reverse engineer payouts? Is there a table that looks up a win value and chooses a pre determined bonus sequence or reel stops?

3. Can this be used in an advantage way? Is there something even as simple as “avoid playing if multiple people in the casino just hit a bunch of jackpots”?

Thanks!
link to original post



Going back to slot machines running on the tribal lottery system (not bingo), does anyone know the answers to any of these questions? And I’ll add a fourth… What *is* a class 3 game?
link to original post




As per the Washington Compact;

Class III Gaming means all forms of gaming as defined in 25 U.S.C. Section 2703 (8)
https://wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/tribal/Compacts/Tulalip%28A%29/A-1991%20Compact.pdf


The term "class III Gaming" means all forms of gaming that are not class I gaming or class II gaming.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/25/2703#

Long story short, Washington has no class III Slots, Bingo and Scratch only. Scratch being a VLT (Video Lottery Terminal)
However, Table games fall under Class III so Washington has class II and class III Gaming.

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