Slot cheating

In a recent interview on the podcast Life is a gamble by Richard Munchkin he interviewed Bob Dancer.
Dancer said in video poker the games are fair and honest He then said but some Vegas casinos are doing things with their slots that he basically alludes that they were cheating.
Has anyone heard this or know what in particular he’s talking about?

Quote: Hunterhill

In a recent interview on the podcast Life is a gamble by Richard Munchkin he interviewed Bob Dancer.
Dancer said in video poker the games are fair and honest He then said but some Vegas casinos are doing things with their slots that he basically alludes that they were cheating.
Has anyone heard this or know what in particular he’s talking about?
link to original post

I’d have to listen to it for context. Would you possibly be kind enough to post a link and approximate time?

It was just life is a gamble podcast with Bob dancer it was in the last 5 minutes of the show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXGyLAvfXl8

21:25

"I play slots and there are casinos that I know are not playing fair. Whether it's legal cheating or not, I don't know. But there are casinos here in Vegas and elsewhere who are taking unfair advantage of players and you just have to learn what those are and avoid that situation." --Bob Dancer

Somebody in the comments section asks what he was talking about when he said that. The channel owner responds with, "My understanding is that some slots accumulate some sort of bonus, and the casinos in question are resetting those machines back to start when no one is playing."

So I guess it would be like if the casino closes for the night and there's 23 blue piggies, the casino resets it back down to 9 piggies when they open the next morning, which basically means they are pocketing the EV that those 14 extra piggies were worth. There are certain laws when it comes to how casinos need to deal with progressive jackpots (need to put it back into a different machine if taking a game off the floor) but there's no laws that I know of when it comes to progressive free games like that.

I've heard this accusation before. I'd be happy to go public with an accusation if I had some evidence.

Quote: Wizard

I've heard this accusation before. I'd be happy to go public with an accusation if I had some evidence.
link to original post

The only way to prove it would be to record the slots right before closing and then right when they reopen.

I wasn't even aware casinos shut down for the evening in vegas?

I'll start the bidding with lousy payout tables.

Continuing the piggy example:

What exactly is the point of doing this for the casino?

If the casino wants higher or lower RTP, they can simply change the configuration (obviously following existing protocol for doing so). This seems like extra effort with no benefit over simply configuring the machine how they want to begin with.

In regard to progressives, I'm curious how the progressives are counted with regards to RTP. If each $1 wagered results in 2 cents added to the progressives, how is the RTP calculated? Is it based on 98 cents coin in and $x returned, completely ignoring the progressives' delta from the reset amount? If the RTP calculation ignores the progressives' delta, then casinos resetting progressives could be considered a form of 'stealing', whereas if the RTP is always calculated based on the full $1 coin in and full pay including progressives, then the same argument as above can be made.

If each $1 wagered results in 2 cents added to the progressives, how is the RTP calculated? Is it based on 98 cents coin in and $x returned, completely ignoring the progressives' delta from the reset amount?"

Quote: McSweeney

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXGyLAvfXl8

21:25

"I play slots and there are casinos that I know are not playing fair. Whether it's legal cheating or not, I don't know. But there are casinos here in Vegas and elsewhere who are taking unfair advantage of players and you just have to learn what those are and avoid that situation." --Bob Dancer

Somebody in the comments section asks what he was talking about when he said that. The channel owner responds with, "My understanding is that some slots accumulate some sort of bonus, and the casinos in question are resetting those machines back to start when no one is playing."

So I guess it would be like if the casino closes for the night and there's 23 blue piggies, the casino resets it back down to 9 piggies when they open the next morning, which basically means they are pocketing the EV that those 14 extra piggies were worth. There are certain laws when it comes to how casinos need to deal with progressive jackpots (need to put it back into a different machine if taking a game off the floor) but there's no laws that I know of when it comes to progressive free games like that.
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That makes more sense; the ‘slots’ aren’t ‘cheating’; the casinos are, if that’s the case. My understanding of Nevada gambling law is that wouldn’t be legal to do there as these things are player funded, though I highly doubt if something being illegal would stop most casinos from doing something if they really wanted to.

I’ve seen this sort of thing happen at a casino near me with must-hits, but it didn’t seem to be a floor-wide thing, so it also could have been a glitch or something also. I definitely know of one casino that got into the habit of resetting off UX multipliers despite that UX isn’t terribly likely to hurt them.

I thought we all discussed this - with proof - and realized it was legal with laws and everything. People just seem to misunderstand that its not illegal…

Quote: heatmap

I thought we all discussed this - with proof - and realized it was legal with laws and everything. People just seem to misunderstand that its not illegal…
link to original post

Doesn’t Nevada have a law specifically about moving player funded things to a machine with equal, or shorter, odds?

Quote: McSweeney

Somebody in the comments section asks what he was talking about when he said that. The channel owner responds with, "My understanding is that some slots accumulate some sort of bonus, and the casinos in question are resetting those machines back to start when no one is playing."

So I guess it would be like if the casino closes for the night and there's 23 blue piggies, the casino resets it back down to 9 piggies when they open the next morning, which basically means they are pocketing the EV that those 14 extra piggies were worth. There are certain laws when it comes to how casinos need to deal with progressive jackpots (need to put it back into a different machine if taking a game off the floor) but there's no laws that I know of when it comes to progressive free games like that.
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I designed a slot machine about 10 years ago that had a accumulative bonus event similar to the banking of symbols. I programmed it to reset the accumulator when a person was done playing and it sat for a while. Although that may look like cheating, it was not as the accumulated EV was still given out to the players. It just was not obvious that there would be an advantage so it reduced the number of vultures because they could not see when it had an advantage. To the best of my knowledge I was the first one in Nevada to do that because I had to jump through hoops with the Nevada Gaming Commission. Once I could prove that all of the accumulated money was going back to the players, and not the casino, they were fine with it.

There is another less nefarious possibility and I have seen this in action at more than one casino. I don't know why they do it or how often. Rare enough most people don't notice but often enough that I caught them.

I don't believe it is anything criminal BTW.

They may have simply been moving like machines.

For example if the piggies are stuffed at end of day at one game and not at the other and they switch the machine around (and not necessarily sitting next to each other) then it might appear the piggies at the first location had been reset.

I first noticed this practice when hitting a bank of machines in which one had a sticky button such that it was difficult to push. Especially annoying when button mashing. One of them also had one of those purplish screens where the color is off or the monitor is messed up still playable but an eye strain.

And in trying to avoid these on a daily basis I discovered that occasionally (perhaps once a week) the machines would get switched. The messed up screen suddenly had the messed up button, then come a different day the messed up button was on a game that had previously no problems.

The games were all like games so you wouldn't even know they had been moved except for the quirks above. At first I thought they were just switching skins (not physically moving the units but just switching chips) until the button that was sticky actually switched location as well suddenly being a slot on the right instead of center etc. So they do both move physically the units and switch the chips or skins since one moment the sticky button would be with a clear screen, then another with the messed up screen etc.

Since then I have seen this at other locations. A cracked button that on the same exact game suddenly is on a different part of the floor even within the same bank of machines

It seems like an awful lot of work. The explanation However may be more innocent. I am thinking entire banks moved for cleaning purposes or routine inspections and then misplaced by the staff since they look alike(still a bank of the same machines the staff may be too lazy to keep the machines numbers in exact placement).

Anyway that's my 2 cents on what might be happening.

Quote: DRich

I designed a slot machine about 10 years ago that had a accumulative bonus event similar to the banking of symbols. I programmed it to reset the accumulator when a person was done playing and it sat for a while. Although that may look like cheating, it was not as the accumulated EV was still given out to the players. It just was not obvious that there would be an advantage so it reduced the number of vultures because they could not see when it had an advantage. To the best of my knowledge I was the first one in Nevada to do that because I had to jump through hoops with the Nevada Gaming Commission. Once I could prove that all of the accumulated money was going back to the players, and not the casino, they were fine with it.
link to original post

DRich,

By what mechanism was the accumulated EV returned to the players?

Dog Hand

Quote: DogHand

Quote: DRich

I designed a slot machine about 10 years ago that had a accumulative bonus event similar to the banking of symbols. I programmed it to reset the accumulator when a person was done playing and it sat for a while. Although that may look like cheating, it was not as the accumulated EV was still given out to the players. It just was not obvious that there would be an advantage so it reduced the number of vultures because they could not see when it had an advantage. To the best of my knowledge I was the first one in Nevada to do that because I had to jump through hoops with the Nevada Gaming Commission. Once I could prove that all of the accumulated money was going back to the players, and not the casino, they were fine with it.
link to original post

DRich,

By what mechanism was the accumulated EV returned to the players?

Dog Hand
link to original post

In mine it was returned on the same combination that it was taken from. In simple terms when the bonus was hit it paid the regular amount it would have for the bonus plus a "mystery" amount that was banked hiddenly. If the banked hidden amount got over certain thresholds it was split up and added to the next two or three bonus events.

Quote: DRich

bonus events.
link to original post

im picturing a database of "upcoming" events... in a queue.... or something.... ?

Quote: darkoz

There is another less nefarious possibility and I have seen this in action at more than one casino. I don't know why they do it or how often. Rare enough most people don't notice but often enough that I caught them.

I don't believe it is anything criminal BTW.

They may have simply been moving like machines.

For example if the piggies are stuffed at end of day at one game and not at the other and they switch the machine around (and not necessarily sitting next to each other) then it might appear the piggies at the first location had been reset.

I first noticed this practice when hitting a bank of machines in which one had a sticky button such that it was difficult to push. Especially annoying when button mashing. One of them also had one of those purplish screens where the color is off or the monitor is messed up still playable but an eye strain.

And in trying to avoid these on a daily basis I discovered that occasionally (perhaps once a week) the machines would get switched. The messed up screen suddenly had the messed up button, then come a different day the messed up button was on a game that had previously no problems.

The games were all like games so you wouldn't even know they had been moved except for the quirks above. At first I thought they were just switching skins (not physically moving the units but just switching chips) until the button that was sticky actually switched location as well suddenly being a slot on the right instead of center etc. So they do both move physically the units and switch the chips or skins since one moment the sticky button would be with a clear screen, then another with the messed up screen etc.

Since then I have seen this at other locations. A cracked button that on the same exact game suddenly is on a different part of the floor even within the same bank of machines

It seems like an awful lot of work. The explanation However may be more innocent. I am thinking entire banks moved for cleaning purposes or routine inspections and then misplaced by the staff since they look alike(still a bank of the same machines the staff may be too lazy to keep the machines numbers in exact placement).

Anyway that's my 2 cents on what might be happening.
link to original post

They're still using chips? on a windows computer?
My understanding is they're able to change themes remotely.

Quote: Wizard

I've heard this accusation before. I'd be happy to go public with an accusation if I had some evidence.
link to original post

Someday I'm going to provide to you my proof of keno not being random. starting with multicard.

Quote: heatmap

Quote: DRich

bonus events.
link to original post

im picturing a database of "upcoming" events... in a queue.... or something.... ?
link to original post

No, absolutely not.

Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap

Quote: DRich

bonus events.
link to original post

im picturing a database of "upcoming" events... in a queue.... or something.... ?
link to original post

No, absolutely not.
link to original post

Then these events are at the very least a “bucket” of some sort? How do you know they exist and can add value?

If you didnt use the two words bonusing event i wouldnt have latched on to this simply because i have a manual from a company that produces kiosks that have bonus events in them and it allows the casino to change the probability of these events if enough money has not been made but i am nearly certain its specifically for people who received mail and they go up to the kiosk and when they scan their mailer it chooses their prize based on the dynamic probability.

Quote: heatmap

Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap

Quote: DRich

bonus events.
link to original post

im picturing a database of "upcoming" events... in a queue.... or something.... ?
link to original post

No, absolutely not.
link to original post

Then these events are at the very least a “bucket” of some sort? How do you know they exist and can add value?

If you didnt use the two words bonusing event i wouldnt have latched on to this simply because i have a manual from a company that produces kiosks that have bonus events in them and it allows the casino to change the probability of these events if enough money has not been made but i am nearly certain its specifically for people who received mail and they go up to the kiosk and when they scan their mailer it chooses their prize based on the dynamic probability.
link to original post

Besides my 25 years working in regulated slot machine markets I have also developed promotional kiosks. In general the promotional kiosks are not regulated under slot machine regulations because they are not accepting money for the outcome. Basically, very few rules exist and they can do pretty much anything they want.

Perhaps he means slots like 88 fortunes that trigger a bonus where you keep picking until 3 match. It always leads you to believe that if you had just picked the one on the left instead of the right you would have gotten the grand instead of the mini. Of course the pick was predetermined before you even started picking.

There seems to be more and more accumulator bonus games out there that keep filling up until they go off. I always get a kick out of ap’s over analyzing games and getting par sheets etc to say when something is a play. Nothing wrong with that but then I see people post stuff and then it’s universally decided something is a worthless game that never pays good. I think to an extent analytics has taken over judgement and feel. There are just some games out there that just always pay bad (aristocrats). Then there are some that may not be the best play but you seem to do ok on (IGT). I wouldn’t be surprised if many slots after a year or 2 on the floor never pay out anything close to their listed RTP.

Quote: Sandybestdog

I wouldn’t be surprised if many slots after a year or 2 on the floor never pay out anything close to their listed RTP.

That would surprise me. In Nevada the casinos must report machines to the Gaming commission if they are underpaying by more than 2% of their PAR sheet amount.