dahoss2002
dahoss2002
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September 11th, 2023 at 4:41:28 AM permalink
In general, the payback% goes up as you raise denominations 1$>50c>25c. Does the same apply as you move up denominations on a Lightning Link machine. Does the 5c denomination have a higher payback than 1c?
Mental
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September 11th, 2023 at 5:25:08 AM permalink
Quote: dahoss2002

In general, the payback% goes up as you raise denominations 1$>50c>25c. Does the same apply as you move up denominations on a Lightning Link machine. Does the 5c denomination have a higher payback than 1c?
link to original post

I have looked at several hundred online slots, and the RTP is the same at all denominations for every one of these games. Part of this is that the online slot game rules always have the RTP listed, and they may not want to explicitly show preference for the higher limit players.

In a B&M casino, the players don't usually know the RTP of the game. Video poker is an exception, and the player can see whether the optimal RTP increases or stays the same as they change denominations. The casino is providing an incentive to play max coins and to play higher denominations of video poker. For slots, there is no incentive if the player does not know that the RTP is increased. Therefore, I see no reason for the casino to provide and advantage to higher denomination play on a slot game.
Last edited by: Mental on Sep 11, 2023
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blackjacklad
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September 11th, 2023 at 9:02:19 AM permalink
In the UK the RTP has to be accessible on the machine. In the larger 'real' casinos the return is the same across denominations. However in the smaller (but far more common) slots parlours and bookmakers, the slots will almost always have a higher RTP for higher stake sizes.
Mental
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September 11th, 2023 at 9:36:57 AM permalink
Quote: blackjacklad

In the UK the RTP has to be accessible on the machine. In the larger 'real' casinos the return is the same across denominations. However in the smaller (but far more common) slots parlours and bookmakers, the slots will almost always have a higher RTP for higher stake sizes.
link to original post

That UK rule is interesting and very helpful to the player. Is the RTP visible on the screen? For the online slots that I play, there is a single RTP in the help screen or game rules and this RTP does not change depending on what denomination is currently selected.
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blackjacklad
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September 11th, 2023 at 11:24:36 AM permalink
Each game has the rtp somewhere in the game rules. When figuring out if a game is beatable it certainly helps knowing what the overall RTP is.
100xOdds
100xOdds
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September 11th, 2023 at 4:01:34 PM permalink
Quote: blackjacklad

Each game has the rtp somewhere in the game rules. When figuring out if a game is beatable it certainly helps knowing what the overall RTP is.
link to original post

When i was in the UK (big Grosvenor casino), there was no AP'able slots like in the US.

Take Ocean Magic.
in The UK version (94% return according to help screen), the bubbles don't stay to the next spin.
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DRich
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September 11th, 2023 at 5:08:59 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: blackjacklad

Each game has the rtp somewhere in the game rules. When figuring out if a game is beatable it certainly helps knowing what the overall RTP is.
link to original post

When i was in the UK (big Grosvenor casino), there was no AP'able slots like in the US.

Take Ocean Magic.
in The UK version (94% return according to help screen), the bubbles don't stay to the next spin.
link to original post



When I was designing slots, I made it so the persistent features like the bubbles for example would go away after a cashout or 30 seconds after the credit meter went to zero. It helped limit the vultures but the resulting funds would be added back in over the next x bonus rounds. I thought it was a good solution because it limited vultures but still gave the accumulated funds back to the players.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mental
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September 11th, 2023 at 7:38:26 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: blackjacklad

Each game has the rtp somewhere in the game rules. When figuring out if a game is beatable it certainly helps knowing what the overall RTP is.
link to original post

When i was in the UK (big Grosvenor casino), there was no AP'able slots like in the US.

Take Ocean Magic.
in The UK version (94% return according to help screen), the bubbles don't stay to the next spin.
link to original post



When I was designing slots, I made it so the persistent features like the bubbles for example would go away after a cashout or 30 seconds after the credit meter went to zero. It helped limit the vultures but the resulting funds would be added back in over the next x bonus rounds. I thought it was a good solution because it limited vultures but still gave the accumulated funds back to the players.
link to original post

The online casinos give everyone their own virtual game. Nobody can vulture the state of my machine because it is exclusive to me.

The MGM properties exploit players by giving them bonuses to play a new game every week. These games start in a bad state. At the end of the week, the player often leaves valuable state on the machine. The casino gains by having the player play a game at less than its long-term RTP.
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blackjacklad
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September 12th, 2023 at 1:20:04 AM permalink
There are AP'able slots (including in Grosvenors), however there are a smaller proportion than in the US (and there are currently less of them than there were when I started machine play 5 years ago). The best games have been removed over the past 2 years. Until recently I moved around constantly making my living from the machines, but with the current offering it's just not worth my time.

On the IGT machines games like Ocean's Magic and Dragon Sphere have been altered so they're not persistent state (and are therefore useless), whereas Elephant King, Valley of Gold and a few others haven't been neutered in the same way.

Also we have Novomatic machines in all casinos, which still have one or two beatable games.
garyt1957
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September 13th, 2023 at 10:06:48 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: blackjacklad

In the UK the RTP has to be accessible on the machine. In the larger 'real' casinos the return is the same across denominations. However in the smaller (but far more common) slots parlours and bookmakers, the slots will almost always have a higher RTP for higher stake sizes.
link to original post

That UK rule is interesting and very helpful to the player. Is the RTP visible on the screen? For the online slots that I play, there is a single RTP in the help screen or game rules and this RTP does not change depending on what denomination is currently selected.
link to original post



It should be that way everywhere. At least let the player know what his odds are. While a worker had a Walking Dead slot open at MGM in Detroit I saw the RTP was 79%! Never played that machine gain.
ChumpChange
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September 13th, 2023 at 10:21:28 AM permalink
I'm gonna have to give a slot machine room to lose 300 credits of spins before I decide how absolutely sucky it is. But it's not like the old days where a quarter or 2 or 3 were how much it cost for a spin. Now we've got multiples of 88 credits per spin or multiples of 50 credits per spin. It's really too easy to overbet on a machine that's paying far too little early on in hopes that it will pay big early on.
DRich
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September 13th, 2023 at 11:42:03 AM permalink
Quote: garyt1957

Quote: Mental

Quote: blackjacklad

In the UK the RTP has to be accessible on the machine. In the larger 'real' casinos the return is the same across denominations. However in the smaller (but far more common) slots parlours and bookmakers, the slots will almost always have a higher RTP for higher stake sizes.
link to original post

That UK rule is interesting and very helpful to the player. Is the RTP visible on the screen? For the online slots that I play, there is a single RTP in the help screen or game rules and this RTP does not change depending on what denomination is currently selected.
link to original post



It should be that way everywhere. At least let the player know what his odds are. While a worker had a Walking Dead slot open at MGM in Detroit I saw the RTP was 79%! Never played that machine gain.
link to original post



Report them to the Michigan Gaming regulators. It is mandated to be 80% or higher in Michigan.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mental
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September 13th, 2023 at 12:03:50 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: garyt1957

Quote: Mental

Quote: blackjacklad

In the UK the RTP has to be accessible on the machine. In the larger 'real' casinos the return is the same across denominations. However in the smaller (but far more common) slots parlours and bookmakers, the slots will almost always have a higher RTP for higher stake sizes.
link to original post

That UK rule is interesting and very helpful to the player. Is the RTP visible on the screen? For the online slots that I play, there is a single RTP in the help screen or game rules and this RTP does not change depending on what denomination is currently selected.
link to original post



It should be that way everywhere. At least let the player know what his odds are. While a worker had a Walking Dead slot open at MGM in Detroit I saw the RTP was 79%! Never played that machine gain.
link to original post



Report them to the Michigan Gaming regulators. It is mandated to be 80% or higher in Michigan.
link to original post

I have seen screens on VP games that showed the actual historical RTP for each game. If garyt1957 saw the historical payout screen instead of the theoretical RTP screen, then the machine might be legal in MI.

Some online casinos overlay the historical RTP beneath the tile for every game. It will say something eye-catching like 115% RTP. They don't say over what time period the machine paid out 115%, and the theoretical RTP is listed in the help screen and is always under 100% RTP. So, the casino is just trying to help users find the 'hot machine' even though most online slots are just virtual games residing within the memory of the same powerful server.

I was on a progressive bank decades ago and suits came down early in the morning and started shutting machines down around me. Before they shut each game down, they opened a RTP screen wrote down the historical RTPs for every game on a clipboard. I saw that the RTP was different for each of the four machines near me. I saw three RTPs over 100% and one just under 100%. The games were configured wrong, which was the reason that I was playing them. After I hit the progressive and left, they shut my game down and that was the end of that.
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DRich
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September 13th, 2023 at 12:29:04 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

I have seen screens on VP games that showed the actual historical RTP for each game. If garyt1957 saw the historical payout screen instead of the theoretical RTP screen, then the machine might be legal in MI.



Very true. In Nevada if audited machines actual payback is 2% or more below the theo the machine has to be checked.
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Mental
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September 13th, 2023 at 1:30:53 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Mental

I have seen screens on VP games that showed the actual historical RTP for each game. If garyt1957 saw the historical payout screen instead of the theoretical RTP screen, then the machine might be legal in MI.



Very true. In Nevada if audited machines actual payback is 2% or more below the theo the machine has to be checked.
link to original post

Obviously, a new machine takes quite a while to get within 2% of it's long-term theoretical RTP. I recall that the machine needs to be within guidelines over a year of play. A new slot game could be 20% below theoretical RTP for weeks if it isn't played a lot on the higher bet levels.
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DRich
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September 13th, 2023 at 2:36:52 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: DRich

Quote: Mental

I have seen screens on VP games that showed the actual historical RTP for each game. If garyt1957 saw the historical payout screen instead of the theoretical RTP screen, then the machine might be legal in MI.



Very true. In Nevada if audited machines actual payback is 2% or more below the theo the machine has to be checked.
link to original post

Obviously, a new machine takes quite a while to get within 2% of it's long-term theoretical RTP. I recall that the machine needs to be within guidelines over a year of play. A new slot game could be 20% below theoretical RTP for weeks if it isn't played a lot on the higher bet levels.
link to original post



Yes, the audits are generally done annually.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
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