McSweeney
McSweeney
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April 15th, 2023 at 1:18:12 PM permalink
My casino recently stuck a memo onto a bunch of machines that have progressive jackpots: "Notice: this game is set to be removed from the casino on [X date] and the progressive jackpot amounts will be transferred into [X machine]". These memos were stuck onto about 5 games in all, and these machines had Mini, Minor, Major, and Grand Jackpots. The progressive jackpots in all of the machines to be removed were ALL going to be transferred into the same machine. The casino has to do this in order to comply with laws that say if a casino wants to remove a machine from the floor that has a progressive jackpot accumulated, they can't just remove the machine and pocket all the money that went into the progressive; they have to transfer the progressive amount into another game on the floor.

I was excited at the rare opportunity to get first dibs on the machine that the money would be dumped into and win unnaturally inflated jackpots for myself. I was picturing a scenario where the Minis would be dumped into the corresponding Mini, Minor into the Minor, etc. Unfortunately, I discovered that the casino dumped ALL of the money into the Grand Jackpot. And therefore, despite the fact that the Grand Jackpot increased by about 20 grand overnight, I didn't think I had a +EV play on it due to the difficulty of hitting the Grand.

Has anyone ever made a play off a casino dumping a bunch of money into a progressive jackpot?

I also think casinos can cleverly get away with "pocketing" progressive free games that have accumulated onto a machine because it's not really possible to transfer that into a different machine. Unless the par sheet can put an exact value on how much a free game is worth (for what it's worth, from my own data, a Rich Little Piggies blue free game is worth about 3x your bet).
rsactuary
rsactuary
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April 15th, 2023 at 1:33:16 PM permalink
Point of clarification: They only have to move the amount over the reset amount.. not the whole amount. In Nevada, if I remember correctly, there are some rules when transferring about the probability being comparable within some range.
ThatDonGuy
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MichaelBluejay
April 15th, 2023 at 3:42:29 PM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

Point of clarification: They only have to move the amount over the reset amount.. not the whole amount. In Nevada, if I remember correctly, there are some rules when transferring about the probability being comparable within some range.
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Nevada Gaming Regulation 5.110(c) deals with transferring a progressive:
"The licensee distributes the entire [amount over the reset amount] to another single progressive payoff schedule on similar game(s) or machine(s) at the licensee’s establishment and:
(1) The licensee documents the distribution;
(2) Any game or slot machine offering the payoff schedule to which the licensee distributes [the amount over the reset amount] does not require that more money be played on a single play to win the payoff schedule than the game or slot machine from which the amount is distributed unless the amount distributed is increased in proportion to the increase in the amount of the wager required to win the payoff schedule;
(3) If from a slot machine, any slot machine offering the payoff schedule to which the incremental amount is distributed complies with [the 75% minimum RTP]; and
(4) The distribution is completed within 30 days after the progressive payoff schedule is removed from play or within such longer period as the Chair may for good cause approve."

I assume that (2) means, for example, that if you take a progressive from a $1 machine and put it into a different $1 machine that results in the value over the reset amount being doubled, then you can make it a $2 machine?
AxelWolf
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April 15th, 2023 at 7:55:21 PM permalink
Quote: McSweeney

My casino recently stuck a memo onto a bunch of machines that have progressive jackpots: "Notice: this game is set to be removed from the casino on [X date] and the progressive jackpot amounts will be transferred into [X machine]". These memos were stuck onto about 5 games in all, and these machines had Mini, Minor, Major, and Grand Jackpots. The progressive jackpots in all of the machines to be removed were ALL going to be transferred into the same machine. The casino has to do this in order to comply with laws that say if a casino wants to remove a machine from the floor that has a progressive jackpot accumulated, they can't just remove the machine and pocket all the money that went into the progressive; they have to transfer the progressive amount into another game on the floor.

I was excited at the rare opportunity to get first dibs on the machine that the money would be dumped into and win unnaturally inflated jackpots for myself. I was picturing a scenario where the Minis would be dumped into the corresponding Mini, Minor into the Minor, etc. Unfortunately, I discovered that the casino dumped ALL of the money into the Grand Jackpot. And therefore, despite the fact that the Grand Jackpot increased by about 20 grand overnight, I didn't think I had a +EV play on it due to the difficulty of hitting the Grand.

Has anyone ever made a play off a casino dumping a bunch of money into a progressive jackpot?

I also think casinos can cleverly get away with "pocketing" progressive free games that have accumulated onto a machine because it's not really possible to transfer that into a different machine. Unless the par sheet can put an exact value on how much a free game is worth (for what it's worth, from my own data, a Rich Little Piggies blue free game is worth about 3x your bet).
link to original post

I have played quite a few opportunities involving dumped progressives.

ThatDonGuy points out some regulations, but in reality, it's whatever Gaming approves of, if it sounds fair to them they normally go with whatever the casino comes up with. They don't even have to add it to other machines, they can give it out on various other promotions if need be. Sometimes it sucks for you as a player and sometimes it's great.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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April 15th, 2023 at 7:55:23 PM permalink
Quote: McSweeney

My casino recently stuck a memo onto a bunch of machines that have progressive jackpots: "Notice: this game is set to be removed from the casino on [X date] and the progressive jackpot amounts will be transferred into [X machine]". These memos were stuck onto about 5 games in all, and these machines had Mini, Minor, Major, and Grand Jackpots. The progressive jackpots in all of the machines to be removed were ALL going to be transferred into the same machine. The casino has to do this in order to comply with laws that say if a casino wants to remove a machine from the floor that has a progressive jackpot accumulated, they can't just remove the machine and pocket all the money that went into the progressive; they have to transfer the progressive amount into another game on the floor.

I was excited at the rare opportunity to get first dibs on the machine that the money would be dumped into and win unnaturally inflated jackpots for myself. I was picturing a scenario where the Minis would be dumped into the corresponding Mini, Minor into the Minor, etc. Unfortunately, I discovered that the casino dumped ALL of the money into the Grand Jackpot. And therefore, despite the fact that the Grand Jackpot increased by about 20 grand overnight, I didn't think I had a +EV play on it due to the difficulty of hitting the Grand.

Has anyone ever made a play off a casino dumping a bunch of money into a progressive jackpot?

I also think casinos can cleverly get away with "pocketing" progressive free games that have accumulated onto a machine because it's not really possible to transfer that into a different machine. Unless the par sheet can put an exact value on how much a free game is worth (for what it's worth, from my own data, a Rich Little Piggies blue free game is worth about 3x your bet).
link to original post

I have played quite a few opportunities involving dumped progressives.

ThatDonGuy points out some regulations, but in reality, it's whatever Gaming approves of, if it sounds fair to them they normally go with whatever the casino comes up with. They don't even have to add it to other machines, they can give it out on various other promotions if need be. Sometimes it sucks for you as a player and sometimes it's great.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DogHand
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April 15th, 2023 at 10:40:26 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

<snip>(2) Any game or slot machine offering the payoff schedule to which the licensee distributes [the amount over the reset amount] does not require that more money be played on a single play to win the payoff schedule than the game or slot machine from which the amount is distributed unless the amount distributed is increased in proportion to the increase in the amount of the wager required to win the payoff schedule;<snip>

I assume that (2) means, for example, that if you take a progressive from a $1 machine and put it into a different $1 machine that results in the value over the reset amount being doubled, then you can make it a $2 machine?
link to original post



ThatDonGuy,

I have a different interpretation of number 2.

Let's say the casino wants to transfer $6,000 from a $1 machine jackpot into a $2 machine. The way I read the statute, the casino would have to put 2*$6,000 = $12,000 into the $2 machine. If instead they moved it to a $5 machine, they'd have to put 5*$6,000 = $30,000 into the new machine. In each case, the additional amount over $6,000 would have to come from the casino's coffers.

Dog.Hand
DRich
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April 16th, 2023 at 5:35:23 AM permalink
Quote: DogHand

Quote: ThatDonGuy

<snip>(2) Any game or slot machine offering the payoff schedule to which the licensee distributes [the amount over the reset amount] does not require that more money be played on a single play to win the payoff schedule than the game or slot machine from which the amount is distributed unless the amount distributed is increased in proportion to the increase in the amount of the wager required to win the payoff schedule;<snip>

I assume that (2) means, for example, that if you take a progressive from a $1 machine and put it into a different $1 machine that results in the value over the reset amount being doubled, then you can make it a $2 machine?
link to original post



ThatDonGuy,

I have a different interpretation of number 2.

Let's say the casino wants to transfer $6,000 from a $1 machine jackpot into a $2 machine. The way I read the statute, the casino would have to put 2*$6,000 = $12,000 into the $2 machine. If instead they moved it to a $5 machine, they'd have to put 5*$6,000 = $30,000 into the new machine. In each case, the additional amount over $6,000 would have to come from the casino's coffers.

Dog.Hand
link to original post



I have been involved in moving money from one progressive to another. We always moved it to the same denom or a lower denom and we never put on more than the accumulated amount other than maybe rounding up to the nearest dollar.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mental
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April 16th, 2023 at 7:06:07 AM permalink
I have seen a case where the casino lowered the denomination of two Safari machines from a nickel to a penny. Right after the switch, every one of the five meters was at least 5x reset value. My son hit some of the smaller jackpots that were still high when he found the games in his local casino and then he called me. I took some of the higher jackpots down a few days later. This was in a mandatory withholding state, so it was not as attractive an opportunity as it could have been.

I found a Fireball game that apparently had a jackpot dumped into the L3 meter. It was 20x reset. It took me 12 hours to hit it at $5 per spin. I believe this was about three cycles, but I still made a profit.

I always assumed that casino employees informed friends and family about these dumps. It would take a lot of shoe leather, observational skills, and luck to participate in many of these opportunities without tips from insiders.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
DRich
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April 16th, 2023 at 12:20:28 PM permalink
Quote: Mental


I always assumed that casino employees informed friends and family about these dumps. It would take a lot of shoe leather, observational skills, and luck to participate in many of these opportunities without tips from insiders.



Having an insider is always easier but any good AP would notice right away if a progressive went up an unreasonable amount from the day or two before. I would guess most AP's are watching five or less casinos daily so they should see these changes.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
AitchTheLetter
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April 16th, 2023 at 4:34:04 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

I always assumed that casino employees informed friends and family about these dumps.
link to original post



I do not know if ALL casinos are this way, but immediate family and those that co-habituate (roommates or romantic partners) with workers at the casino I currently work at CANNOT gamble with us. Sure you could tell another friend that you don't live with or a cousin, I guess.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
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