Cashman Bingo
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16 members have voted
January 25th, 2022 at 8:12:29 PM
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I've been hearing a lot of chatter about Cashman Bingo. This is a vulturable slot machine. The way it works is there is a 5x5 game field. If the player gets a coin on any of the 24 squares (the center square has a separate function), then that money is added to the corresponding square on a 5x5 bingo card on a separate screen. Any given square must have at least some money to count as being marked. When the any row, column, or diagonal is fully marked, the player wins all the money from the coins on that line.
So, if an abandoned game has a card with already so-many squares covered, it has a positive expected value. It's not just a matter of the number of squares covered, but how the marks are arranged and how much money is already in the marked squares. However, I'm looking for a basic strategy that considers the number of marks only. For purposes of discussion, you may count the free square as a marked square.
In preliminary discussions, I think that 16 is probably where a game becomes positive, but this is not based on feel from other players, who gave me permission to discuss this.
For the poll, please indicate the least number of squares you would play Cashman Bingo.
Finally, here is a video to help understand the game.
Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmdpyaOLLt8
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
January 26th, 2022 at 7:32:26 AM
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where's the option of:
i never get a play because of campers
anyway, i would play when i see two or more '4 to a bingo'.
i never get a play because of campers
anyway, i would play when i see two or more '4 to a bingo'.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
January 26th, 2022 at 10:00:46 AM
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In a normal game of bingo, it take on average 13.60808351 earned marks on the card to get a single-line bingo, counting bingos through the free square, but not counting the free square as a mark. My question is do you think this holds true for Cashman Bingo? Here are a couple of images I grabbed off of YouTube videos, showing cards at the time a bingo was hit.
The image above shows 16 earned marks.
The image above shows 18 earned marks.
The image above shows 16 earned marks.
The image above shows 18 earned marks.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
January 26th, 2022 at 2:22:40 PM
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They have this game at the Bally's Evansville casino. It is right next to the restaurant so I have watched it quite a bit and from what I have seen, the coins are not random in the sense that any one of the 24 available squares can be hit. In fact, I have seen the bingo cards (which are different for each bet level), get as many as 25 additional coins when there are just one square remaining for a bingo. It seems like the time it takes from the start of a game to get to where there is a "bingo square" is just as long as the time it takes to get a bingo with just one square left. There are people who kind of hang out and watch the machines to hope someone gets up when a particular board is deep in the game, but most of the time, I have seen it take more coins to hit the bingo (when it is down to one square to go) than it actually pays out when it hits. I dont have any data other than just watching it, but in my experience playing, it does about the same.
January 31st, 2022 at 7:25:10 PM
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Sorry about the 11 big images in my last post. It is taking a while for them to load on my end.
In other news, I jumped on a game with the following card recently. $0.75 bet level.
Yes, I know, not a very good card, but I recorded it for research purposes.
It took 57 coins to get a bingo. According to a random simulation, it should have taken 13.22, on average. The probability of it taking 57 coins or more is 1 in 49,800.
So, I think we can put to rest any debate that the game is gaffed for the coins to land on spots that already have a coin.
The question is what is a good strategy for when the game is positive EV. I've had some anonymous discussion on this and it would seem there is no easy rule of thumb. One must consider a lot of factors. Soon I will post some pictures of games and ask for your opinion on whether they are +EV.
In other news, I jumped on a game with the following card recently. $0.75 bet level.
| X | X | |||
| X | ||||
| X | X | |||
| X | X | |||
| X | X |
Yes, I know, not a very good card, but I recorded it for research purposes.
It took 57 coins to get a bingo. According to a random simulation, it should have taken 13.22, on average. The probability of it taking 57 coins or more is 1 in 49,800.
So, I think we can put to rest any debate that the game is gaffed for the coins to land on spots that already have a coin.
The question is what is a good strategy for when the game is positive EV. I've had some anonymous discussion on this and it would seem there is no easy rule of thumb. One must consider a lot of factors. Soon I will post some pictures of games and ask for your opinion on whether they are +EV.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
January 31st, 2022 at 7:42:26 PM
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Would you guys have played this card at the $1.50 bet level? I found this game at the Rampart a few days ago.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
January 31st, 2022 at 8:48:50 PM
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Yes, with already one possible bingo.
I have tried to vulture this game several times, but without a pending bingo, it is usually a tough battle
I have tried to vulture this game several times, but without a pending bingo, it is usually a tough battle
February 1st, 2022 at 6:23:31 AM
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Happy Chinese new year everybody!
Here are some shots from a game I played through. I recognize the first screen is probably not playable. I only played it for research purposes. The screen titles shall be below the images. Please indicate which screen is the least you would have played and why. The bet is $0.75.
Card 1
Card 2
Card 3
Card 4
Card 5
Card 6
Card 7
Card 8
Here are some shots from a game I played through. I recognize the first screen is probably not playable. I only played it for research purposes. The screen titles shall be below the images. Please indicate which screen is the least you would have played and why. The bet is $0.75.
Card 1
Card 2
Card 3
Card 4
Card 5
Card 6
Card 7
Card 8
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 1st, 2022 at 6:51:44 AM
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card 8.
it meets my criteria of at least 2 '4 to a bingo'
it meets my criteria of at least 2 '4 to a bingo'
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
February 1st, 2022 at 1:25:37 PM
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Still getting a feel on this one. Not many play opportunities as people not leaving much or campers taking games early.
Same problem with Regal Riches but at least I have a good grip on when to play in my shop.
Same problem with Regal Riches but at least I have a good grip on when to play in my shop.
Son you ain’t paying attention
I’m cutting you but you ain’t bleeding
- Foghorn Leghorn
February 1st, 2022 at 3:05:08 PM
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I've looked at my videos of playing through two bingos and considered the advice of some experienced players in making the following basic strategy for when to play this game.
Add the prizes for all "one way" wins. Remember, if you get a double-bingo, the cell that goes through both lines will be paid twice. Also, I roughly estimate the center square to be worth about 8x the amount bet. Then divide that "sum of cased lines" by the amount bet. Let's call that ratio r = (sum of all prizes on one-away lines)/(bet size). My basic strategy is to play only if r > 80. Maybe the r factor should be 70 or 90. Yes, other factors should be considered as well, like being two-away from a Grand win. Shall we say this is just a starting point for discussion and not a hard and fast strategy, at least at this point.
Let's look at this example.
The one-away line is the diagonal from F1 to A5, to use Battleship notation. The total prizes on that line are $56.40. The bet amount is $1.50. Thus, the ratio of cased prizes to bet is 37.6. That makes this game negative EV.
All that said, I throw it open to the forum for comment.
Add the prizes for all "one way" wins. Remember, if you get a double-bingo, the cell that goes through both lines will be paid twice. Also, I roughly estimate the center square to be worth about 8x the amount bet. Then divide that "sum of cased lines" by the amount bet. Let's call that ratio r = (sum of all prizes on one-away lines)/(bet size). My basic strategy is to play only if r > 80. Maybe the r factor should be 70 or 90. Yes, other factors should be considered as well, like being two-away from a Grand win. Shall we say this is just a starting point for discussion and not a hard and fast strategy, at least at this point.
Let's look at this example.
The one-away line is the diagonal from F1 to A5, to use Battleship notation. The total prizes on that line are $56.40. The bet amount is $1.50. Thus, the ratio of cased prizes to bet is 37.6. That makes this game negative EV.
All that said, I throw it open to the forum for comment.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 1st, 2022 at 8:28:50 PM
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i dont think the sum of that line is 56.40.Quote: WizardLet's look at this example.
The one-away line is the diagonal from F1 to A5, to use Battleship notation. The total prizes on that line are $56.40. The bet amount is $1.50. Thus, the ratio of cased prizes to bet is 37.6. That makes this game negative EV.
All that said, I throw it open to the forum for comment.
link to original post
doesnt the mini reset after it gets hit the 1st time?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
February 2nd, 2022 at 5:23:24 AM
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Quote: 100xOddsi dont think the sum of that line is 56.40.
doesnt the mini reset after it gets hit the 1st time?
link to original post
Good point. That would seem to make sense.
Using Battleship notation, the sum of the one-away line would be:
D2 = $0.90 + $19.50 (full value of mini) = $20.40
C3 = 8 (using my wheel constant of 8x) * $1.50 = $12.00
B4 = $16.00 (reset value of mini) + $2.70 = $18.70
A5 = $1.80
Total = $52.90.
Dividing by the bet amount, the cased wins to bet ratio is 35.3, much less than the 70 required.
Last edited by: Wizard on Feb 2, 2022
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 2nd, 2022 at 12:01:03 PM
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I lose a lot on this game.
Last edited by: LuckAsAnArt on Feb 2, 2022
February 2nd, 2022 at 12:31:42 PM
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Some people who don't wish to post or are not members at all have said it seems like the big wins on the board tend to be in places that are harder to hit. That wouldn't surprise me, but I don't formally charge that. Aristocrat games in general tend to be gaffed right and left to make it seem the player is close to catching a big fish, when he usually catches small ones.
I'm proud to say I'm up $12 on this game. I want to play again to capture a wheel spin on video.
I'm proud to say I'm up $12 on this game. I want to play again to capture a wheel spin on video.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 2nd, 2022 at 2:35:13 PM
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but when you do catch a big fish, it's in spades.Quote: WizardAristocrat games in general tend to be gaffed right and left to make it seem the player is close to catching a big fish, when he usually catches small ones.
link to original post
ie: line you hit with Maxi progressive also has a ~50x bet coin
or the bonus round has multiple 10x multipliers where normally you dont see any
Based on that, i will play any board (even 3 coins) if I see a Maxi.
I'm 2 for 2 (small sample size)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
February 3rd, 2022 at 1:20:32 PM
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Me too. Although I've had some big hits, it's not a great earner for me. The entry point is WAAAAY later than you think it needs to be. Incredibly frustrating game.Quote: LuckAsAnArtI lose a lot on this game.
link to original post
I got the "awarded all values on the bingo board" feature the other day. That's a real unicorn. Thankfully, I was playing $3.75 with some decent numbers so it paid pretty nice ($600+).
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
February 3rd, 2022 at 1:33:23 PM
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You'll lose big time.Quote: 100xOdds
Based on that, i will play any board (even 3 coins) if I see a Maxi.
I'm 2 for 2 (small sample size)
link to original post
Now, whether you should chase the MAJOR is another proposition. I've chased a $7.50 major on a decent board and was two ways to hit it. Of course, I didn't get it. You'd have see a grown man verbally destroy an inanimate slot game if you were in the casino that day.:)
And of course you should chase the grand, but I've never seen a grand coin. Never seen a grand hit the wheel except on one FB post, and never seen a progressive of ANY stripe hit the wheel except once IRL (wasn't me).
Sometimes the guy comes down and juices the wheel value after it hits which is nice. It's kind of a "oh, sorry we screwed you here's a little extra" bit. Another reason I believe the bonus is gaffed.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
February 4th, 2022 at 2:47:46 AM
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_________
here are some posts from elsewhere about the game with an alternative view of it
I'm not trying to stir up controversy - just thought it would make the discussion interesting
btw - machines are not my thing - so I have no opinion at all about the matter
the poster is mickey crimm - a machine pro who has a twitter page (linked at bottom) and is an extremely knowledgeable expert - I think - again - I don't know much about this stuff - but it is kinna intersting to me - until I started lurking around I never would have dreamed that machines could be beat and that some talented few could actually support themselves off of them
"The Wizard has started a thread on Cashman Bingo over on WoV. I think he doesn't know enough about the game at this point.
He is trying to determine how many squares on the Bingo Card should be covered to make it a positive play. I don't think that is the right approach.
To me it's not the number of squares that have been covered. It's the amount of money that's in those squares.
Here is the game in question. Check the board out but also look at the meters. There is a mini, minor, maxi and major meter (There is also a grand meter with several thousand dollars in it that you can't see in the pic).Those meters are important on this play. Not only for the amount of money in them but also whether or not they are on the Bingo Card.
In this pic you can see that one of the covered squares has a mini meter in it. If you bingo on that line you are awarded the mini meter. And one square has a major meter in it. If you bingo on that line you will be awarded the money in the major meter. There are actually two ways to bingo with the major meter in it.
This particular game is on the $1.50 bet level. The fact that the major meter, at $484, is on the board makes this a very strong play. It has huge expectation.
You are not always going to hit the major in this spot but you will get your share in the long run.
Another thing to know about this game. Once you've bingo'd and been awarded the money the board will reset. The middle space and two random spaces will be covered. Those two spaces will always be covered by a ball that has a meter in it.
Most of the time it will reset with a mini and minor meter on the board. Sometimes it will be two mini meters. Sometimes it will be two minor meters. This is what happens most of the time.
But every so often it will drop a maxi or major meter into one of those two spaces. Or they might drop onto the board sometime while the board is filling up.
That's when I like to play; when a maxi or major meter is on the board. I've never caught the grand meter on the board but maybe one of these days...
"the likelihood of squares getting filled is absolutely not equal. the same squares that already have coins in them keep getting hit, even when the bingo card is almost totally filled and there are lots of squares resulting in bingo."
Yes, thats true. Thats the reason I play for the amount of money on board, not the number of squares filled in.
Squares that have had balls land in them will keep getting balls landing in them and the money keeps building in those squares. The probability is a square already filled in has a much better chance to catch a ball than one that doesn't. But the ball that bingo's the card is going to come out.
It appears to me that the unfilled squares all have an equal chance of being hit. I base my strategy on that.
don't win on every play but I'm well ahead on this game playing for the maxi and major meters. I've yet to see the grand on the board.
Remember what I said about what happens at reset. There will always be two meters on the board at reset and most of the time it will be the two bottom meters. But sometimes the higher meters drop onto the board.
You will see that there is a mini meter on the board. And you will also see that there is a major meter on board.
Those are the only two meters on the board. That means those two meters were on the board from reset.
Will you play it from reset if that major meter is on the board? If you won't then give me a call. Hold the machine until I get there!"
https://twitter.com/mickeycrimm?lang=en
Note: Mickey's comment put in spoiler tags by moderator
.
here are some posts from elsewhere about the game with an alternative view of it
I'm not trying to stir up controversy - just thought it would make the discussion interesting
btw - machines are not my thing - so I have no opinion at all about the matter
the poster is mickey crimm - a machine pro who has a twitter page (linked at bottom) and is an extremely knowledgeable expert - I think - again - I don't know much about this stuff - but it is kinna intersting to me - until I started lurking around I never would have dreamed that machines could be beat and that some talented few could actually support themselves off of them
"The Wizard has started a thread on Cashman Bingo over on WoV. I think he doesn't know enough about the game at this point.
He is trying to determine how many squares on the Bingo Card should be covered to make it a positive play. I don't think that is the right approach.
To me it's not the number of squares that have been covered. It's the amount of money that's in those squares.
Here is the game in question. Check the board out but also look at the meters. There is a mini, minor, maxi and major meter (There is also a grand meter with several thousand dollars in it that you can't see in the pic).Those meters are important on this play. Not only for the amount of money in them but also whether or not they are on the Bingo Card.
In this pic you can see that one of the covered squares has a mini meter in it. If you bingo on that line you are awarded the mini meter. And one square has a major meter in it. If you bingo on that line you will be awarded the money in the major meter. There are actually two ways to bingo with the major meter in it.
This particular game is on the $1.50 bet level. The fact that the major meter, at $484, is on the board makes this a very strong play. It has huge expectation.
You are not always going to hit the major in this spot but you will get your share in the long run.
Another thing to know about this game. Once you've bingo'd and been awarded the money the board will reset. The middle space and two random spaces will be covered. Those two spaces will always be covered by a ball that has a meter in it.
Most of the time it will reset with a mini and minor meter on the board. Sometimes it will be two mini meters. Sometimes it will be two minor meters. This is what happens most of the time.
But every so often it will drop a maxi or major meter into one of those two spaces. Or they might drop onto the board sometime while the board is filling up.
That's when I like to play; when a maxi or major meter is on the board. I've never caught the grand meter on the board but maybe one of these days...
"the likelihood of squares getting filled is absolutely not equal. the same squares that already have coins in them keep getting hit, even when the bingo card is almost totally filled and there are lots of squares resulting in bingo."
Yes, thats true. Thats the reason I play for the amount of money on board, not the number of squares filled in.
Squares that have had balls land in them will keep getting balls landing in them and the money keeps building in those squares. The probability is a square already filled in has a much better chance to catch a ball than one that doesn't. But the ball that bingo's the card is going to come out.
It appears to me that the unfilled squares all have an equal chance of being hit. I base my strategy on that.
don't win on every play but I'm well ahead on this game playing for the maxi and major meters. I've yet to see the grand on the board.
Remember what I said about what happens at reset. There will always be two meters on the board at reset and most of the time it will be the two bottom meters. But sometimes the higher meters drop onto the board.
You will see that there is a mini meter on the board. And you will also see that there is a major meter on board.
Those are the only two meters on the board. That means those two meters were on the board from reset.
Will you play it from reset if that major meter is on the board? If you won't then give me a call. Hold the machine until I get there!"
https://twitter.com/mickeycrimm?lang=en
Note: Mickey's comment put in spoiler tags by moderator
.
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Feb 4, 2022
Please don't feed the trolls
February 4th, 2022 at 6:47:18 AM
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In reply to the copy and pasted content from Mickey, I think it was written before my 70x strategy. My post about the number of cased lines was not a strategy etched in granite, but just a starting point for conversation. My 70x strategy fully considers the amounts on the board on cased lines.
However, I respect his point about when there is a Maxi, Major, or Grand on the board. A question for the forum -- would you play after a reset with a Maxi on the board? My gut feeling is only if it were on a diagonal and I would also consider the jackpot amount. A Major or Grand I would play wherever it was.
Another question -- what are the reset amount for the Maxi, Major, and Grand?
Finally, I would like to remind lilredrooster and the forum there is a rule against relaying messages from banned members. I'm put in a difficult spot regarding this post. I will let it go with a warning because it's not a message meant for the WoV, but a general comment for his audience. lilredrooster, consider yourself warned to at least ask permission before you do this again.
Meanwhile, I am going to edit your post to put Mickey's comments in spoiler tags.
However, I respect his point about when there is a Maxi, Major, or Grand on the board. A question for the forum -- would you play after a reset with a Maxi on the board? My gut feeling is only if it were on a diagonal and I would also consider the jackpot amount. A Major or Grand I would play wherever it was.
Another question -- what are the reset amount for the Maxi, Major, and Grand?
Finally, I would like to remind lilredrooster and the forum there is a rule against relaying messages from banned members. I'm put in a difficult spot regarding this post. I will let it go with a warning because it's not a message meant for the WoV, but a general comment for his audience. lilredrooster, consider yourself warned to at least ask permission before you do this again.
Meanwhile, I am going to edit your post to put Mickey's comments in spoiler tags.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 4th, 2022 at 9:53:34 AM
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I personally appreciate the Crimm comments. MC may be a malcontent, but his on-the-street knowledge of slots in unimpeachable. I agree with everything he said.
As to Mike's comments, I personally wouldn't chase a Maxi on an otherwise naked board. I'd wait for it to become at least partially juiced. Major -- hard to say but I think I would chase under any circumstances. This is all going by gut instinct.
Grand is $8,000 flat on every denomination. It can go up a little depending on the progressive (not much), or it stays the same if it is a "flattop" (Mission's lingo for a non-progressive game). Maxi is $250 on $3.75 at reset and Major is $750 I believe. Double or divide as necessary per the bet amount.
Ironically, in that Slot Cats video in the original post they stumbled upon an extremely positive situation and got the best possible result. I wonder if they knew that. They kind of play naive in the video.
As to Mike's comments, I personally wouldn't chase a Maxi on an otherwise naked board. I'd wait for it to become at least partially juiced. Major -- hard to say but I think I would chase under any circumstances. This is all going by gut instinct.
Grand is $8,000 flat on every denomination. It can go up a little depending on the progressive (not much), or it stays the same if it is a "flattop" (Mission's lingo for a non-progressive game). Maxi is $250 on $3.75 at reset and Major is $750 I believe. Double or divide as necessary per the bet amount.
Ironically, in that Slot Cats video in the original post they stumbled upon an extremely positive situation and got the best possible result. I wonder if they knew that. They kind of play naive in the video.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
February 4th, 2022 at 3:51:48 PM
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A lurker of this thread was just awarded the entire screen on a game.
Congratulations!
Congratulations!
Last edited by: Wizard on Feb 4, 2022
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 5th, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM
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I've gotten that once on $3.75. No major, but it paid pretty nice. $600+. You can't count on that feature; it's super rare.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
February 6th, 2022 at 7:10:00 PM
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Here's a game I found but decided not to play. Adding all the 1-off bingo values it's 29,475 credits, or 29475/375=78.6 units. I was very close to wanting to play it and thought if it were just slightly better, I would have. I was surprised all the coins were so low given 17 spots filled -- not a single "flaming" coin. Usually when it gets to 16 the prizes have had time to build up quite nicely, so I guess this is something of an exceptional setup.
February 6th, 2022 at 7:42:13 PM
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I would have chased that. Hard not to make a small profit.
February 6th, 2022 at 8:18:37 PM
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I think the strategy of adding all of the 1-off bingo lines together makes sense as a starting point but is obviously not sufficient.
An addition could be to take all of the coins that are not part of a 1-off bingo line, divide them by some factor corresponding to how unlikely they are to actually help you, then add that to the previously calculated sum. For example in my above photo, E4 at 3,450 credits can't contribute to a bingo unless E1 and E5 simultaneously fill (unlikely, but it does happen in this game), or C4 is first filled, then D4 is filled. If E4 had the Grand, for example, it would obviously be worth playing on that long-shot alone.
What is the reduction factor for coins not currently contributing to a 1-off bingo? I don't know, but intuitively I would imagine it is somewhere between 3 and 5. And this factor should change based on how likely it is for a different bingo to hit first.
I don't know if a bingo is more likely to happen in a spin with five possible 1-offs versus just one possible 1-off. That depends on exactly which way the game is gaffed. It may be that during each spin the game decides with 5% probability "you may allow a bingo to happen", and may place coins on the reels with fair randomness (but not fairly random values as mentioned early). Or it may be that once a bingo is possible, the game decides during each spin with 1% probability "make bingo(s) happen". The value of coins not currently contributing to 1-off bingos is greater in situations like the one I posted above if the latter is true than if the former is true. All of my experience playing the game tells me it's more likely that the mechanic is that bingos don't come more frequently when you have five or more spots versus just two. In other words, more coins does not = more "ready to hit".
If this additional valuation is taken with your 'r' and whatever minimum amount they must be, it would encompass the rule of playing for the Major alone. And Majors, Maxis, or other big coins on diagonals are more valuable because it is less likely for a different bingo to hit first since they fit in to 3 of 12 possible bingos instead of 2 of 12 on non-diagonals and thus are less likely to get excluded no matter what ends up developing on the empty board. It could be possible, though unlikely I suppose, for a Major to be very disconnected from the board, requiring multiple steps to become part of a 1-off bingo, while other weak 1-off bingos already exist, putting the play at risk of hitting a weak bingo before the Major can come into play. But if it's possible, it may not be significant, as the risk of quickly hitting a bingo before the board fills up is hardly a risk at all, and may even be a small (though below expectation) win.
One question: does the game ever award a bingo when no 1-off bingo yet exists? I don't think so, but if it did it would make some of what I wrote invalid. I also imagine the "all prizes awarded" feature doesn't happen until there's a 1-off bingo, but this may be something nobody but the programmers knows. I strongly suspect both the "bingo" and "all prizes on board awarded" features function similarly, where the game just checks for a 1-off bingo existing, then rolls something like 1% or .001%, respectively.
An addition could be to take all of the coins that are not part of a 1-off bingo line, divide them by some factor corresponding to how unlikely they are to actually help you, then add that to the previously calculated sum. For example in my above photo, E4 at 3,450 credits can't contribute to a bingo unless E1 and E5 simultaneously fill (unlikely, but it does happen in this game), or C4 is first filled, then D4 is filled. If E4 had the Grand, for example, it would obviously be worth playing on that long-shot alone.
What is the reduction factor for coins not currently contributing to a 1-off bingo? I don't know, but intuitively I would imagine it is somewhere between 3 and 5. And this factor should change based on how likely it is for a different bingo to hit first.
I don't know if a bingo is more likely to happen in a spin with five possible 1-offs versus just one possible 1-off. That depends on exactly which way the game is gaffed. It may be that during each spin the game decides with 5% probability "you may allow a bingo to happen", and may place coins on the reels with fair randomness (but not fairly random values as mentioned early). Or it may be that once a bingo is possible, the game decides during each spin with 1% probability "make bingo(s) happen". The value of coins not currently contributing to 1-off bingos is greater in situations like the one I posted above if the latter is true than if the former is true. All of my experience playing the game tells me it's more likely that the mechanic is that bingos don't come more frequently when you have five or more spots versus just two. In other words, more coins does not = more "ready to hit".
If this additional valuation is taken with your 'r' and whatever minimum amount they must be, it would encompass the rule of playing for the Major alone. And Majors, Maxis, or other big coins on diagonals are more valuable because it is less likely for a different bingo to hit first since they fit in to 3 of 12 possible bingos instead of 2 of 12 on non-diagonals and thus are less likely to get excluded no matter what ends up developing on the empty board. It could be possible, though unlikely I suppose, for a Major to be very disconnected from the board, requiring multiple steps to become part of a 1-off bingo, while other weak 1-off bingos already exist, putting the play at risk of hitting a weak bingo before the Major can come into play. But if it's possible, it may not be significant, as the risk of quickly hitting a bingo before the board fills up is hardly a risk at all, and may even be a small (though below expectation) win.
One question: does the game ever award a bingo when no 1-off bingo yet exists? I don't think so, but if it did it would make some of what I wrote invalid. I also imagine the "all prizes awarded" feature doesn't happen until there's a 1-off bingo, but this may be something nobody but the programmers knows. I strongly suspect both the "bingo" and "all prizes on board awarded" features function similarly, where the game just checks for a 1-off bingo existing, then rolls something like 1% or .001%, respectively.
February 6th, 2022 at 8:43:21 PM
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Quote: PlayYourCardsRightI would have chased that. Hard not to make a small profit.
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I think it's actually very easy to not make a small profit. In fact with a lot of the value being weighted towards one specific spot, it's possible it could be +EV while the modal outcome is a loss. I think I would be happy to bet anyone even money that they could play til they hit a bingo and lose (but I would not crossbook their action in the game).
February 6th, 2022 at 8:47:55 PM
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Quote: NathanVHere's a game I found but decided not to play. Adding all the 1-off bingo values it's 29,475 credits, or 29475/375=78.6 units.
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With the ratio over 70, I would have played it.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 6th, 2022 at 8:54:53 PM
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To reply to NathanV's post, I would say my "70x one-off" strategy is just a starting point. The player should also consider huge prizes that are not one-off as well as the value of points earned and the overall RTP of slots in whatever casino the game is in. I think I would also play if a Grand were two-away and if a Major was anywhere on the screen.
As to how the game is gaffed, I think any given square on the board that already has a coin is about 10.5 times more likely to get hit against than any particular square that hasn't been touched yet. So, any given untouched square is equally likely to be hit -- there is no gaff to hit the less valuable spots.
As to how the game is gaffed, I think any given square on the board that already has a coin is about 10.5 times more likely to get hit against than any particular square that hasn't been touched yet. So, any given untouched square is equally likely to be hit -- there is no gaff to hit the less valuable spots.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 6th, 2022 at 9:00:16 PM
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I actually put money into the machine and texted someone to make sure they were available to bring me more money but after 10 minutes of humming and hawing I ended up changing my mind and cashed out without spinning. I never had any formalized number for deciding whether to play but I think my intuition has been something around r>85. I couldn't disagree with anyone who thought it was playable and am definitely open to the idea that I'm wrong.
In fact now that I think about it, I'm not entirely sure this 'r' system is appropriate. If in fact bingos don't become more likely as more 1-offs appear, as I suspect, then adding all the 1-offs is wrong. The 1-offs should in fact all be averaged, and the new 'r' should be much lower than 70. My own limited experience with these 5x and 6x 1-off boards is that they can still go a very long time, whereas I've had plays like the following go very quickly (this one dropped on my very first spin!)
I really hate dealing in anecdotes, though, so it might be time for me to hit up youtube and get a bigger recorded sample of how often a bingo drops compared to number of 1-offs.
I'm going to fire up the spreadsheets right now and try to substantiate my theory.
In fact now that I think about it, I'm not entirely sure this 'r' system is appropriate. If in fact bingos don't become more likely as more 1-offs appear, as I suspect, then adding all the 1-offs is wrong. The 1-offs should in fact all be averaged, and the new 'r' should be much lower than 70. My own limited experience with these 5x and 6x 1-off boards is that they can still go a very long time, whereas I've had plays like the following go very quickly (this one dropped on my very first spin!)
I really hate dealing in anecdotes, though, so it might be time for me to hit up youtube and get a bigger recorded sample of how often a bingo drops compared to number of 1-offs.
I'm going to fire up the spreadsheets right now and try to substantiate my theory.
February 6th, 2022 at 9:18:07 PM
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I've spoken to several people who play this who are either not WoV members or are but want to anonymously contribute. That said, when I've pressed them for a strategy, they all said they can't put one in words but they go on the feel of the board. However, if I write about this to a wider audience I can't advise my audience to "go on feel." I need SOMETHING specific. That is why I developed my 70x cased strategy. If anyone else has a better idea that can be put in writing, I'm all ears. It's easy to throw stones at my strategy, but not so easy to come up with something better.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 7th, 2022 at 7:44:33 AM
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Can they send pictures of boards they feel they would play, as well as boards they feel they would not play?
This may help with quantifying the threshold.
This may help with quantifying the threshold.
May the cards fall in your favor.
February 7th, 2022 at 2:20:39 PM
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My local casino now has a bank of 5. When I walked by first time they all had very few slots filled. When I walked by as I was leaving there was a guy playing and he had most of the slots filled. He was blindly pushing the play button while talking to his wife.
I love ‘no smoking’ in my casino!
I love ‘no smoking’ in my casino!
February 7th, 2022 at 3:27:44 PM
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Soopoo, are all the Seneca casinos nonsmoking?
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
February 7th, 2022 at 4:57:19 PM
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I think they are now! I can only vouch for Seneca Niagara. I don’t think by law they have to follow Hochul’s administrative orders, but they seem to be. You had to wear a mask while not eating or drinking, and they still have those plexiglass shields theoretically protecting the dealers from the players.
February 8th, 2022 at 9:44:13 PM
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Quote: DieterCan they send pictures of boards they feel they would play, as well as boards they feel they would not play?
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Okay, experts, would you play this board? $1.50 bet level.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 9th, 2022 at 6:34:36 AM
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no.Quote: WizardQuote: DieterCan they send pictures of boards they feel they would play, as well as boards they feel they would not play?
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Okay, experts, would you play this board? $1.50 bet level.
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the maxi is not in line with the wheel
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
February 9th, 2022 at 6:51:19 AM
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Can we quote a banned member's posts from WOV?Quote: WizardFinally, I would like to remind lilredrooster and the forum there is a rule against relaying messages from banned members. I'm put in a difficult spot regarding this post. I will let it go with a warning because it's not a message meant for the WoV, but a general comment for his audience. lilredrooster, consider yourself warned to at least ask permission before you do this again.
Meanwhile, I am going to edit your post to put Mickey's comments in spoiler tags.
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ie:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/18030-must-hit-by-progressives-for-dummies/3/#post840527
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
February 9th, 2022 at 8:01:05 AM
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Quote: 100xOddsCan we quote a banned member's posts from WOV?
ie:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/18030-must-hit-by-progressives-for-dummies/3/#post840527
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Yes, you may generally quote his old posts. An exception would be if you quoted something he got banned for. Your example is a good one of an allowable quote.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 9th, 2022 at 3:03:35 PM
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Somebody PM'd me with a lot of comments about Cashman Bingo. I was never sworn to secrecy, so I assume it's okay for me to broach the comments here. Said person claims that if the player is one-away at least one way, then the probability of getting a bingo on any given spin is about 1.28%. He claims this probability does not increase if the player is cased (one-away) multiple ways.
The way I assume the game works (and I could easily be wrong) is any given unmarked square is more unlikely to be hit than a marked one -- significantly. It could be the game plays more fairly in the early stages of the card, but when the player is one away, it seems the same marked squares keep getting hit. Under my theory of weighted squares, the player would still be about twice as likely to bingo with two squares that are one-away than with one square, all other things being equal.
Comments?
The way I assume the game works (and I could easily be wrong) is any given unmarked square is more unlikely to be hit than a marked one -- significantly. It could be the game plays more fairly in the early stages of the card, but when the player is one away, it seems the same marked squares keep getting hit. Under my theory of weighted squares, the player would still be about twice as likely to bingo with two squares that are one-away than with one square, all other things being equal.
Comments?
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 9th, 2022 at 4:25:57 PM
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The poster mentioned above wishes to be mentioned by name. It was NathanV.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 9th, 2022 at 4:30:35 PM
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Wizard, what would you guess is the chance of getting a bingo when you have one single 1-off spot, as well as the chance when you have two 1-off spots?
February 9th, 2022 at 4:44:32 PM
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Quote: NathanVWizard, what would you guess is the chance of getting a bingo when you have one single 1-off spot, as well as the chance when you have two 1-off spots?
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I get 0.64% for one one-off and 1.36% for two one-offs. Please keep in mind the player might hit other unmarked spots and eventually get a bingo somewhere else. So don't take the inverse as an estimate of the spins needed to bingo. Also, my figures should be considered very rough, but I do think the second figure should be close to twice the first.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 9th, 2022 at 5:11:49 PM
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Quote: WizardQuote: NathanVWizard, what would you guess is the chance of getting a bingo when you have one single 1-off spot, as well as the chance when you have two 1-off spots?
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I get 0.64% for one one-off and 1.36% for two one-offs. Please keep in mind the player might hit other unmarked spots and eventually get a bingo somewhere else. So don't take the inverse as an estimate of the spins needed to bingo. Also, my figures should be considered very rough, but I do think the second figure should be close to twice the first.
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So 4.08%, say more conservatively 4% would be the chance to bingo with six 1-offs, right?
This puts the chances at missing in 100 spins at 1.69%
in 200 spins at .028%
in 300 spins at .00048%
in 400 spins at .0000081%, or 1 in 12,345,446
Who here has ever missed with six 1-offs in 400 spins? I'll raise my hand, multiple times, and my other hand for several of my friends. In fact anyone who has been invested 250 units before hitting a bingo has likely missed 400 spins (assuming 37.5% base+free game RTP).
The data I've gathered show no correlation between number of 1-off spots and probability of bingo. The coins appearing on the reels to trigger bingo is a misdirection.
I believe the game has a bundle of features:
(1) "new position on board filled"
(2) "new position on board filled and prizes increased"
(3) "prizes increased"
(4) "bingo"
(5) "all prizes awarded"
I believe (1-2) may appear when there are zero or one 1-off bingo spots. I believe (3-5) may appear when there is one or more 1-off bingo spot. I believe the game rolls every spin whether or not to trigger a feature, then looks at what is possible, and chooses which one appears based on its own probability. For example (3) is more common than (4) in my experience, and (5) is obviously extremely rare.
February 9th, 2022 at 9:01:56 PM
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I dumped $1100 in a $3.75 game last night. I didn't think that was possible. Went after a Major -- and didn't get it. Bingo paid $360.
This game is a terror.
This game is a terror.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
February 11th, 2022 at 7:28:59 AM
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My video on Cashman Bingo is ready. I welcome all comments before I set it to public mode.
Direct: https://youtu.be/-Wc2UoifTqk
Direct: https://youtu.be/-Wc2UoifTqk
Last edited by: Wizard on Feb 11, 2022
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
February 11th, 2022 at 9:56:08 AM
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Gave your video its first like :)
February 11th, 2022 at 1:12:10 PM
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I don’t care what other AP’s say, I LOVE this series! Thanks for sharing!
February 17th, 2022 at 3:28:45 PM
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This Maxi is in line with wheel. ($0.75 bet lvl)Quote: 100xOddsno.Quote: WizardOkay, experts, would you play this board? $1.50 bet level.
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the maxi is not in line with the wheel
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I missed the Maxi but still made a profit because of double bingo and that huge $41 coin.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
