slot payback disclosure
Quote: DRich"Good morning Commissioner XXX, madam secretary, and to all of you esteemed members of the commission. I am XXX representing YYY in this mater and would like for you and your esteemed collegues to consider my proposal."
Good god, what is this…the Lord of Commons parliament?
Waaay too formal. I can still hear Sinatra muttering under his breath.
These people must love the ass kissing.
Quote: DRichAnother bad this is that nobody that works for the Gaming Control is allowed to gamble in Nevada.
That's fine. I don't have much in the way of desire to gamble in Nevada anyway.
Quote: Mission146That's fine. I don't have much in the way of desire to gamble in Nevada anyway.
I want people that actually gamble to help making the rules.
a) Lazy as Heck.
b) Stupid as Heck.
c) Trying to sweep something under the carpet.
d) Colluding.
Quote: DRichI want people that actually gamble to help making the rules.
I gamble; I just have no desire to do it in Nevada specifically. I don’t drink, so Nevada doesn’t really have anything to offer me I can’t get elsewhere other than more competition for plays.
Quote: JohnnyQIMHO, the fact that the Nevada Gaming Commission does not split out VIDEO POKER from SLOTS on the payback reporting means they are:
a) Lazy as Heck.
b) Stupid as Heck.
c) Trying to sweep something under the carpet.
d) Colluding.
The fact that they do this changes the narrative. It likely also means people are playing traditional slots with 80% payback and not the “average” for all. Nevada considers ANY machine type game that accepts money thru a slot as a slot machine. Therefore all forms of table games in video format are considered slots. Roulette, craps, etc.
This will drastically lower the average payback for traditional slots.
I would not be surprised if these hulking slot machines now being installed have EPROM’s at 75% RTP.
There is an easy solution. Disclosure. List the RTP on every machine.
Quote: SOOPOOHow can you put an RTP on a slot or VP game that has a progressive jackpot? It will of course change with each subsequent spin?
Base game with progressive reset value.
Quote: DRichMy question is why would we expect casinos to disclose this and not all other businesses? Should a grocery store have to show us their markup on milk and peanut butter? Should a car dealer tell us they are making $3,000 by selling you that used car?
The disparity lies in the pricing.
A box of eggs may cost $1 here, $1.29 over there.
A nicer box of eggs may cost $5.49 at some boutique egg store (I'm sure they're delicious).
The price on a slot machine isn't just the $1, $2, or whatever a spin. The price is the value of the spin multiplied by the hold.
Of course casinos don't want it, but in the jurisdictions where it is required, it is usually quite unintrusive on the gaming experience.
I'm reasonably sure only a few players bother to look at it on their way to play Dragon's Law, Buffalo, or whatever.
Producers *are* required to tell you what you're buying. The label on the peanut butter has to list the amount you get, and the ingredients, and the nutritional profile. When you play slots, you're paying for a chance to win, but they don't disclose any details about what you're getting. It's like paying for peanut butter of unknown amount, ingredients, and nutritional profile.Quote: DRichMy question is why would we expect casinos to disclose this and not all other businesses? Should a grocery store have to show us their markup on milk and peanut butter? Should a car dealer tell us they are making $3,000 by selling you that used car?
Quote: DRichMy question is why would we expect casinos to disclose this and not all other businesses?
Two words: "Full disclosure."
A potential player should have the RIGHT to know the true odds of winning, or as is the case for slots, the programmed RTP amount.
The odds at the table games are known / determinable; why should slots get a bye?
There are lots of ways to handle it. One is to list the RTP at three different levels (reseed, average hit, and double the average hit).Quote: SOOPOOHow can you put an RTP on a slot or VP game that has a progressive jackpot? It will of course change with each subsequent spin?
In addition to disclosing RTP, they should also disclose the odds of hitting the jackpot, which doesn't change as the jackpot grows.
A casino has to make a profit to stay in business. And a lot of that comes from slot machines with a much much higher House Advantage (lower RTP) than Video Poker machines, right ?
So if something happened (ie posting RTP) where slot machines now had a lower House Advantage (assuming the RTP would go up based on competition for players), it would be better for the slot player and worse for the casino.
What do you think would happen next ?
Wouldn't the casino have to put the Squeeze on something else to make up the difference in their profitability ? IE, 3:2 blackjack would completely disappear and paytables for Video Poker would get worse. I don't want that.
IF someone really wanted to know what the AVERAGE House Advantage is for Slot Machines, they can do that now with Google.
Quote: JohnnyQ
IF someone really wanted to know what the AVERAGE House Advantage is for Slot Machines, they can do that now with Google.
I think someone wants to know the return of the slot they are playing.
The casinos fear competition against each other will raise the RTP. That’s why it will never happen.
Quote: MrVTwo words: "Full disclosure."
A potential player should have the RIGHT to know the true odds of winning, or as is the case for slots, the programmed RTP amount.
The odds at the table games are known / determinable; why should slots get a bye?
The difference being that the payback on tables isn't advertised either. Yes, someone is able to calculate it but the casinos don't disclose it. If someone spent the time they could probably determine very clodely the RTP of slots. It would take a lot of time and money but I bet you could get within a half of percent on most slots just by playing a lot and tracking your results. You could also do as Wizard did and try and calculate the slot symbol weightings.
Quote: MichaelBluejayThere are lots of ways to handle it. One is to list the RTP at three different levels (reseed, average hit, and double the average hit).
In addition to disclosing RTP, they should also disclose the odds of hitting the jackpot, which doesn't change as the jackpot grows.
If you think an RTP must be disclosed, then the ‘average’ is meaningless to the player, frankly. It should be displayed exactly depending on the progressive, or should not be displayed at all. Who cares what the reseed RTP is if the progressive is 5 times the reseed?
Quote: SOOPOOIf you think an RTP must be disclosed, then the ‘average’ is meaningless to the player, frankly. It should be displayed exactly depending on the progressive, or should not be displayed at all. Who cares what the reseed RTP is if the progressive is 5 times the reseed?
Oh, so it may pay back more than it says?
That would probably be OK for most people.
Putting up a big sign saying THIS MACHINE JUST WENT POSITIVE may not have the desired effect for anyone but the barely savvy ploppy.
You're doing the classic "The enemy of the good is the perfect." Right now, players get ZERO information. My suggestion for progressives makes things DRAMATICALLY better, but it's not completely perfect, so you decry it as worthless.Quote: SOOPOOIf you think an RTP must be disclosed, then the ‘average’ is meaningless to the player, frankly. It should be displayed exactly depending on the progressive, or should not be displayed at all. Who cares what the reseed RTP is if the progressive is 5 times the reseed?
The reason that RTP can't be shown exactly on progressives is that a printout can't handle every possible level of the jackpot. A sticker that covered 20 different jackpot levels which give more granular information, but it might not fit on the machine, and it wouldn't pass muster with you anyway because it doesn't cover a jackpot amount exactly. Three levels gives enough info. Maybe add a fourth for the positive-return amount.
We could also require slot makers to disclose that info on the screen, but it would be a huge burden to them to rejigger all the existing machines. Probably a good compromise would be to require it of all slots manufactured starting a year from when the regulation was enacted.
I fear not unless some groundswell of support develops, both on social media and politically.
Quote: MrVGiven the seeming support for the idea of requiring casinos to disclose their machine's RTP, the question becomes will there ever be enough interest (i.e., money) behind the idea to push it forward, knowing that the casinos will pay whatever it takes to oppose it?
I fear not unless some groundswell of support develops, both on social media and politically.
The best opportunity will be new jurisdictions as they legalize gambling.
Quote: MrVGiven the seeming support for the idea of requiring casinos to disclose their machine's RTP, the question becomes will there ever be enough interest (i.e., money) behind the idea to push it forward, knowing that the casinos will pay whatever it takes to oppose it?
I fear not unless some groundswell of support develops, both on social media and politically.
In Vegas, you'd have to find one casino willing to buck the trend. Put the message out that all machines are displaying the take. If the public got word and crowded the place, it would put pressure on all the rest.
(now other casino owners might hire someone to burn the place to the ground)
It's happening in the online world, slowly. Casinos like VideoSlots started publishing both theoretical and actual returns for all their games. Other casinos started following suit, though certainly not most of them. I'd like to see the sites which rate casinos use RTP disclosure as one of their criteria.Quote: rxwineIn Vegas, you'd have to find one casino willing to buck the trend. Put the message out that all machines are displaying the take. If the public got word and crowded the place, it would put pressure on all the rest.
They should just tell us what machines are hot, and what machines are not (-:Quote: DRichThe difference being that the payback on tables isn't advertised either. Yes, someone is able to calculate it but the casinos don't disclose it. If someone spent the time they could probably determine very clodely the RTP of slots. It would take a lot of time and money but I bet you could get within a half of percent on most slots just by playing a lot and tracking your results. You could also do as Wizard did and try and calculate the slot symbol weightings.
Quote: AxelWolfThey should just tell us what machines are hot, and what machines are not (-:
I once had a host tell me to play a particular VP machine on a $5 progressive. About 45 minutes later he came back by and wondered why I was still playing a different one.
Who knows, maybe I should have moved.
Sure there is support for disclosing RTP for Slots on the WoV site for gamblers, so I think the fundamental question actually is:Quote: MrVGiven the seeming support for the idea of requiring casinos to disclose their machine's RTP, the question becomes
Does the average tourist in Las Vegas care ? ( A: apparently Not ).
I have seen many banks of Video Poker with signs that say "Up to XX.X % Payback".
I have seen a few banks of Slots in the past with a similar sign, but not recently.
AND if this were somehow required, what would the unintended consequences be ? If slot paybacks go up, what do the casinos implement to maintain their profits ?
\Quote: SOOPOOIf you think an RTP must be disclosed, then the ‘average’ is meaningless to the player, frankly. It should be displayed exactly depending on the progressive, or should not be displayed at all. Who cares what the reseed RTP is if the progressive is 5 times the reseed?
The long term RTP doesn't depend on the amount of the progressive. Why would it have to change or why would you show an average? non-sensical.
Quote: JohnnyQAND if this were somehow required, what would the unintended consequences be ? If slot paybacks go up, what do the casinos implement to maintain their profits ?
Well, for starters, if a law is passed to allow prostitution in Clark county, Nevada the casinos could make a lot of money as whoremasters / a house of ill repute.
No longer must you travel to pahrump to hump; you could bone your woman of the moment in the privacy of your room at a Clark county casino.
Seriously: they'd have the entire thing vertically integrated: employing the sex worker, matching the john to the sex worker, providing a room for the tryst, collecting the money: heck, they could even have an in house doctor available to provide treatment for VD: a classic win-win for everybody.
Increasing the RTP doesn't decrease their profits.Quote: JohnnyQIf slot paybacks go up, what do the casinos implement to maintain their profits ?
Most gamblers play until they lose their whole bankroll. With a higher RTP, they'll just get to play longer before they go bust. Slots suck you money away so quickly, even with a slightly higher RTP, there's no doubt that slot players will still lose it all before their trip ends.
If they don't, well, then they had a better experience, and are more likely to return to Vegas, or return sooner. Visitor counts have been dropping for years, in part because the hotel/casinos are nickel and diming visitors. If they start offering a better value, that's a recipe for increased patronage.
I thought I read somewhere that, by and large, increasing the RTP makes the casino more money. This assumes there's infinite machines and people are prepared to spend lots of time playing. So I'd guess setting them above 95% would make them more money. Also the stories of people "winning lots" is good advertising - even the bookies advertise that they lost at Cheltenham/Goodwood/etc. when all the favourites come in - it's good for business!Quote: MichaelBluejayIncreasing the RTP doesn't decrease their profits....
Quote: rsactuary\
The long term RTP doesn't depend on the amount of the progressive. Why would it have to change or why would you show an average? non-sensical.
Your reply is nonsensical. Why would I care what the long term RTP is? If I am considering playing a slot, the PRESENT RTP is what I would be concerned about.
I am NOT saying I think the casinos should be required to post the RTP on a slot machine. But… if they are required to, then it should not be a sticker slapped on the machine that implies the machine has only one payout percentage. Just like there is a place for the progressive to be displayed as it changes, the RTP would follow suit. Someone upthread mentioned that there would need to be a lag time for manufacturers to adjust to this requirement. Makes sense.
Quote: MichaelBluejayIncreasing the RTP doesn't decrease their profits.
Most gamblers play until they lose their whole bankroll. With a higher RTP, they'll just get to play longer before they go bust. Slots suck you money away so quickly, even with a slightly higher RTP, there's no doubt that slot players will still lose it all before their trip ends.
If they don't, well, then they had a better experience, and are more likely to return to Vegas, or return sooner. Visitor counts have been dropping for years, in part because the hotel/casinos are nickel and diming visitors. If they start offering a better value, that's a recipe for increased patronage.
Before I lived in Vegas and was a visitor…I NEVER remember the pervasive nickel and dimeing that is going on now. Seems it is across the board now and is a part of every aspect of the Strip and tourist locations.
My comment was a joke. Just in case, someone didn't realize that.Quote: rxwineI once had a host tell me to play a particular VP machine on a $5 progressive. About 45 minutes later he came back by and wondered why I was still playing a different one.
Who knows, maybe I should have moved.
Were you already playing on that prog bank, or something different?
From my experience a large majority of people who work for places that have video poker progressives really believe the machines are due to hit once the progressive reaches certain levels " It always hits before x amount"
They don't understand the logic and reasons and of why "it seems to always hit before x amount"
Even after you explain it, 95% won't get it.
Quote: MrVThe houes edge on all table games is known and can be readily determined so that players can make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to play.
But still, 95% of players don't. And its the same with slots. Probably more-so. They know higher denominations pay better and they still play pennies for the same per spin amount as they could quarters or dollars. They don't care.
ZCore13
For example, there is ONE particular slot that I favor, and if I knew which casino offered the highest RTP on their version of the machine I'd play it and it only.
Quote: MrVI suppose you'd need to be patient and a bit disciplined to take advantage of RTP disclosures then, ZCore13.
For example, there is ONE particular slot that I favor, and if I knew which casino offered the highest RTP on their version of the machine I'd play it and it only.
I would say that you may play it more but most people would not. Most people would play what is more convenient.
If the machine at the hotel you are staying at is paying 87.0% but the one at the other end of the strip is pay 87.5% most people wouldn't bother.
Quote: MrVI suppose you'd need to be patient and a bit disciplined to take advantage of RTP disclosures then, ZCore13.
For example, there is ONE particular slot that I favor, and if I knew which casino offered the highest RTP on their version of the machine I'd play it and it only.
Yes, but people here and people that would do that are in the extreme minority. I've talked to tens of thousands of gamblers. Table Games and slots. They don't care as long as they can play a little on their money.
ZCore13
Quote: SOOPOOWhy would I care what the long term RTP is?
It gives you a pretty good idea of what is going to happen if you don't win the progressive.
Quote: DieterIt gives you a pretty good idea of what is going to happen if you don't win the progressive.
Most slot players have a pretty good idea what is going to happen if they don't hit a jackpot.
Interesting perspective. Thanks.Quote: MichaelBluejayIncreasing the RTP doesn't decrease their profits.
Most gamblers play until they lose their whole bankroll. With a higher RTP, they'll just get to play longer before they go bust. Slots suck you money away so quickly, even with a slightly higher RTP, there's no doubt that slot players will still lose it all before their trip ends.
