MrV
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Mission146Hunterhill
July 12th, 2021 at 2:16:07 PM permalink
The houes edge on all table games is known and can be readily determined so that players can make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to play.

The hold or payback amount with slots is treated very differently; casinos are not required to dislclose their payback / hold amount on slots.

I submit gaming authorities should consider adopting a regulation which requires casinos to post the hold / payback amount for their slots.

Assuming the gaming authorities balk, might it not be possible to have Nevada citizens follow the initiative and referendum process (not sure it's available in Nevada) or intiate comparable action to effect this change?

I believe that were it on the ballot most people would favor it.

Of course the casinos would oppose it, tooth and claw, for obvious reasons, so there would need to be a groundswell of public support.

Maybe an appropriate catch phrase for this would be "Stop the Steal."
"What, me worry?"
Mission146
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July 12th, 2021 at 2:26:06 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

The houes edge on all table games is known and can be readily determined so that players can make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to play.

The hold or payback amount with slots is treated very differently; casinos are not required to dislclose their payback / hold amount on slots.

I submit gaming authorities should consider adopting a regulation which requires casinos to post the hold / payback amount for their slots.

Assuming the gaming authorities balk, might it not be possible to have Nevada citizens follow the initiative and referendum process (not sure it's available in Nevada) or intiate comparable action to effect this change?

I believe that were it on the ballot most people would favor it.

Of course the casinos would oppose it, tooth and claw, for obvious reasons, so there would need to be a groundswell of public support.

Maybe an appropriate catch phrase for this would be "Stop the Steal."



I agree 100% with this perspective and this is rarely, but sometimes, the case.

1.) Online slot machine games (in some jurisdictions, anyway) disclose the RTP of the game. I don't know if that is a law, industry standard or choice.

2.) West Virginia VLT terminals (not at the actual casinos) either give a specific percentage or a range. The range will often be on something like Keno where certain features might rely on bet amount, and of course, number of picks CAN matter.

3.) I wouldn't say that the House Edge on Table Games is, 'Known,' in the same context. What I mean is it's not as if the casinos are printing the House Edge on the felt, so someone outside of the casinos still has to determine the House Edge.

That said, I personally believe that the House Edge for the Main Game (and side bets) should either be on the felt or a little sign that goes on the Table. As appropriate, it should say that optimal strategy is assumed.

Of course, the casinos would REALLY be against that. People would finally learn that the side bets ARE, "Where the money is," but that money mostly flows the casino's direction.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
wrxrob
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Mission146
July 15th, 2021 at 4:17:07 PM permalink
In my state of Maryland, it appears casinos are required to post holdback percentages on the game for about a week or so during installation, just before the game goes live. There's a print-out paper with many details including the payback percentage. State minimum is about 87%, and nearly every penny machine is set to 88-89% there. I can't find the law regarding this, but that is how installation of slot machines goes. Rule doesn't seem to count when the machines are moved within the casino.
billryan
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Mission146
July 15th, 2021 at 4:34:37 PM permalink
Nevada has a crazy legislative system where they meet for a couple of weeks every other year, and most new laws have to pass thru two different sessions before it is then placed on the ballot for voters to approve it.
The thing is most residents don't gamble and I believe they'd vote for whatever will have the casinos contribute the most in taxes.
The casinos would claim this will hurt revenue and result in fewer taxes paid and fewer jobs. Who would finance the campaign to battle the disinformation?
JohnnyQ
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Mission146
July 15th, 2021 at 4:51:34 PM permalink
Excellent Summary information can be found at the American Casino Guide website ( I remember seeing it in the book that I purchased for many years ):

25¢ Slot Machines
The Strip – 89.34%
Downtown – 93.91%
Boulder Strip – 95.77%
N. Las Vegas – 96.27%

$1 Slot Machines
The Strip – 92.34%
Downtown – 94.12%
Boulder Strip – 95.49%
N. Las Vegas – 95.62%

It goes on to say:

These numbers reflect the percentage of money returned to the players on each denomination of machine. All electronic machines including slots, video poker, and video keno are included in these numbers and the highest-paying returns are shown in bold print.

Keno may pull down the average, and maybe VP pulls up the average a bit. BUT if this is "weighted" based on the money in / money out, then I assume there are many more Slot machines than VP. There do seem to be a lot of video Keno games.

As expected, the payback percentages for The Strip are significantly lower than anywhere else ( ie any other area that is listed on that website for the Vegas area ).

So the information is out there ( sorto ), but I assume most people just don't care.

EDIT: I care, at least about seeing the Video Poker paytable !

Source:

https://www.americancasinoguide.com/info/slot-machine-payback-statistics#Nevada
Last edited by: JohnnyQ on Jul 16, 2021
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TDVegas
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Mission146
July 15th, 2021 at 5:08:24 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

The hold or payback amount with slots is treated very differently; casinos are not required to dislclose their payback / hold amount on slots.


It’s a nice idea..the casinos will NEVER agree to it because it would create competition among themselves to lower the hold percentage.

Casinos guard hold percentages on traditional slots like the army guards Fort Knox. They don’t want anyone knowing. Nor do I buy into any of these slot magazines or websites that rate various casino slots. My guess is these “best slots” ratings involve payoffs to the writers. There’s no “science” in their determination, IMO.

Go ask a slot manager what the hold is for a specific machine. He will either feign ignorance (real or not) at the question or give you a look of “I can’t tell you that”….whether they actually knew or not. I suspect there might only be a select one or two individuals who order the machines for the casino who would actually know….maybe a Vice President of slots.

Floor guys seem to be clueless…on purpose or not.
TDVegas
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Mission146
July 15th, 2021 at 5:14:03 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Excellent Summary information can be found at the American Casino Guide website ( I remember seeing it in the book that I purchased for many years ):

25¢ Slot Machines
The Strip – 89.34%
Downtown – 93.91%
Boulder Strip – 95.77%
N. Las Vegas – 96.27%

$1 Slot Machines
The Strip – 92.34%
Downtown – 94.12%
Boulder Strip – 95.49%
N. Las Vegas – 95.62%

It goes on to say:

These numbers reflect the percentage of money returned to the players on each denomination of machine. All electronic machines including slots, video poker, and video keno are included in these numbers and the highest-paying returns are shown in bold print.

Keno may pull down the average, and maybe VP pulls up the average a bit. BUT if this is "weighted" based on the money in / money out, then I assume there are many more Slot machines than VP. There do seem to be a lot of video Keno games.

As expected, the payback percentages for The Strip are significantly lower than anywhere else ( that is listed on that website ).

So the information is out there ( sorto ), but I assume most people just don't care.

Source:

https://www.americancasinoguide.com/info/slot-machine-payback-statistics#Nevada


I suspect these “averages” include video poker which would lower the posted percentages for traditional slots. (ie, Wheel of fortune, Buffalo, Lightning Link)
Wizard
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Mission146odiousgambitTDVegascamapl
July 15th, 2021 at 5:20:39 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I submit gaming authorities should consider adopting a regulation which requires casinos to post the hold / payback amount for their slots.



I agree 100%. I believe there is such a regulation in England, as a theoretical RTP will be somewhere on the machine, usually either a sticker or buried in the rule screens. However, I wouldn't count on this to happen in Nevada until I am in charge.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
heatmap
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Mission146
July 15th, 2021 at 5:29:25 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I agree 100%. I believe there is such a regulation in England, as a theoretical RTP will be somewhere on the machine, usually either a sticker or buried in the rule screens. However, I wouldn't count on this to happen in Nevada until I am in charge.



uh didnt want to bump the thread so i guess ill ask you here... any reply to the "gaffed" machine thread? you said you filed a complaint... what is the process involved in that?
Wizard
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heatmapMission146
July 15th, 2021 at 5:34:00 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

uh didnt want to bump the thread so i guess ill ask you here... any reply to the "gaffed" machine thread? you said you filed a complaint... what is the process involved in that?



Never even got the courtesy of a reply from Gaming on that one.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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