EVBandit
EVBandit
Joined: Nov 8, 2019
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December 4th, 2019 at 6:08:32 PM permalink
My neighborhood casino is famous for “changing the chip” on their slots, e.g. they change the settings, paybacks, etc and “changing the chip” is an old term when casinos had to physically change the chip to have a new version (typically lower paying version). So I am set in my “old” ways.

PoP N Play is made by Gaming Arts LLC. This video slot game has 4 machines set in a circle (or carousel format) while others are set 2x2 in a stand alone bank. It first slots showed up in April of this year and quickly spread to other casinos. I’ve seen these machines in high limit as well with and without the MH’s.

Game has three progressives on screen AND three additional progressives on WAY TOP of the machines with MH’s (must hit or “must hit by” per WoO lingo) at $50, $300, and $1,000 respectively. The resets for the MH’s are north of $46, $280, and exactly $975, respectively.

There were two key observations for the game: (a) if you played solo, e.g. only player on the 4 machines, the $300 & $1K jackpots dropped or cracked early. If the machines were full, EACH MH generally hits close to the MH amount like $49.97 or $299.89 and $999+, respectively AND (b) the rules CLEARLY states probabilities to win jackpots are not a constant ... higher your bet, the better your chances so smart AP’s figured out in a “full environment” to slow play at min bet or wait until jackpot reaches close to MH and then make the biggest bets they can afford (since the players at the other three seats were generally betting the min) and the smart AP’s disproportionately win the MH’s due to large bets... the EV was enormous!!! My AP friends brags about the “overlay” while I tell they the “equity” was huge.

Side story: Over 20+ years ago, Sigma Gaming had a bimodal VP game called Flush Attack, e.g. after so many flushes, the next Flush paid an extra large amount. In some places, the machines were linked so anyone could get the extra large Flush. On a message board, some guy wrote about a guy reading a book with credits on his machine. The writer played the game and noticed no reaction from the guy with his nose in the book. As soon as the extra large Flush became lit (it was on the ON MODE), guy drops the book and plays as fast as possible. The writer stated he had no chance to get the lit Flush as he had to shove quarters to play while the guy had credits in the machine. After the guy hit the lit Flush, he went back to reading his book. So waiting for the meter to be primed is an old tactic and my in neighborhood casino, people who camp on these linked MH’s are 86’ed since my neighborhood casino has a zero tolerance policy for this behavior. No camping allowed ... go camping and scavenge at the other casinos.

In my neighborhood casino, we had teams of bonus hustlers (I call them vultures and scavengers but they call themselves AP’s lol) that would wait or loiter as the meters grow and then comes a mad dash of musical chairs as they were more hustlers than seats. So the hustlers evolved to taking a guaranteed seat and slow play ... so the market reacted a max pain point as to see who will jump in the earliest and endure the most loss in exchange for a guaranteed seat. Max pain point is an options term from the stock market.

We also had dumb teams of hustlers that turn seats around, put a jacket on the seat, or turn seat around and put in a $5 or $20 to lock up seats. This neighborhood casino kicked those losers out. Again, no camping allowed.

Anyway, I played last night and it was pretty clear to me the game changed (details omitted to protect my identity). This casino always make it harder to me to make money, especially with X-mas coming.

Full disclosure: I am not an AP but I will agree with you if you call me a scavenger (I don’t like to vulture). To be clear since a lot of people don’t know what an AP is: an AP is someone who can beat the casino playing a game off the top like counting cards in blackjack, or chases progressives for a living, or hustles casinos by playing generally minus EV games but wins promos consistently for net gains, etc. Waiting for a ploppy to leave equity in a bonus machine does not make you into an AP and the guy on advantageplayer(dot)com is a scavenger, not an AP. I’ve called people scavenging $100K MH’s scavengers and they agreed with me on that they are scavengers (unless they were AP’s hustling promo’s). And if the casino gave every player $30 in free play, it does not make everyone into AP’s.

This is my view: scavenger and vulture are used interchangeably without distinction per the AP lexicon. However, for me “vulture” is different due to one aspect: you observe a ploppy on a machine and the game now becomes a play. If you stay and wait for ploppy to tap out, run out of time, switch demons, etc, you are vulturing. Scavenging is when you walk in and see a play immediately on an empty machine like $492 Minor on a RD or you have to check the machines to find plays. Standing directly behind or near someone on a live play is vulturing, not scavenging. Camping and vulturing will get you kicked out in my neighborhood casino. Some casinos are smarter than you think.
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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December 4th, 2019 at 9:09:34 PM permalink
I dont see why kicking out paying customers is smart.

Vultures are not even taking any money from the casino as the games are being played perfectly to the rules.

Any casino that demands someone play a slot only when they want the person to play isnt very smart to me.

Perhaps locking up a machine with no play I can understand. The casino has a taken seat that they could fill with a paying customer.

But standing around waiting to play isnt anything that should get anyone kicked out imo
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
bobbartop
bobbartop
Joined: Mar 15, 2016
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December 4th, 2019 at 9:10:18 PM permalink
Mickey has written at length about the Flush Attacks. Friend of yours?

edit: this was in reply to EvBandit, but DarkOz clicked his mouse a microsecond before I did. Watch that guy, he's quick.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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bobbartop
December 4th, 2019 at 11:17:38 PM permalink
Quote: EVBandit

My neighborhood casino is famous for “changing the chip” on their slots, e.g. they change the settings, paybacks, etc and “changing the chip” is an old term when casinos had to physically change the chip to have a new version (typically lower paying version). So I am set in my “old” ways.

PoP N Play is made by Gaming Arts LLC. This video slot game has 4 machines set in a circle (or carousel format) while others are set 2x2 in a stand alone bank. It first slots showed up in April of this year and quickly spread to other casinos. I’ve seen these machines in high limit as well with and without the MH’s.

Game has three progressives on screen AND three additional progressives on WAY TOP of the machines with MH’s (must hit or “must hit by” per WoO lingo) at $50, $300, and $1,000 respectively. The resets for the MH’s are north of $46, $280, and exactly $975, respectively.

There were two key observations for the game: (a) if you played solo, e.g. only player on the 4 machines, the $300 & $1K jackpots dropped or cracked early. If the machines were full, EACH MH generally hits close to the MH amount like $49.97 or $299.89 and $999+, respectively AND (b) the rules CLEARLY states probabilities to win jackpots are not a constant ... higher your bet, the better your chances so smart AP’s figured out in a “full environment” to slow play at min bet or wait until jackpot reaches close to MH and then make the biggest bets they can afford (since the players at the other three seats were generally betting the min) and the smart AP’s disproportionately win the MH’s due to large bets... the EV was enormous!!! My AP friends brags about the “overlay” while I tell they the “equity” was huge.

Side story: Over 20+ years ago, Sigma Gaming had a bimodal VP game called Flush Attack, e.g. after so many flushes, the next Flush paid an extra large amount. In some places, the machines were linked so anyone could get the extra large Flush. On a message board, some guy wrote about a guy reading a book with credits on his machine. The writer played the game and noticed no reaction from the guy with his nose in the book. As soon as the extra large Flush became lit (it was on the ON MODE), guy drops the book and plays as fast as possible. The writer stated he had no chance to get the lit Flush as he had to shove quarters to play while the guy had credits in the machine. After the guy hit the lit Flush, he went back to reading his book. So waiting for the meter to be primed is an old tactic and my in neighborhood casino, people who camp on these linked MH’s are 86’ed since my neighborhood casino has a zero tolerance policy for this behavior. No camping allowed ... go camping and scavenge at the other casinos.

In my neighborhood casino, we had teams of bonus hustlers (I call them vultures and scavengers but they call themselves AP’s lol) that would wait or loiter as the meters grow and then comes a mad dash of musical chairs as they were more hustlers than seats. So the hustlers evolved to taking a guaranteed seat and slow play ... so the market reacted a max pain point as to see who will jump in the earliest and endure the most loss in exchange for a guaranteed seat. Max pain point is an options term from the stock market.

We also had dumb teams of hustlers that turn seats around, put a jacket on the seat, or turn seat around and put in a $5 or $20 to lock up seats. This neighborhood casino kicked those losers out. Again, no camping allowed.

Anyway, I played last night and it was pretty clear to me the game changed (details omitted to protect my identity). This casino always make it harder to me to make money, especially with X-mas coming.

Full disclosure: I am not an AP but I will agree with you if you call me a scavenger (I don’t like to vulture). To be clear since a lot of people don’t know what an AP is: an AP is someone who can beat the casino playing a game off the top like counting cards in blackjack, or chases progressives for a living, or hustles casinos by playing generally minus EV games but wins promos consistently for net gains, etc. Waiting for a ploppy to leave equity in a bonus machine does not make you into an AP and the guy on advantageplayer(dot)com is a scavenger, not an AP. I’ve called people scavenging $100K MH’s scavengers and they agreed with me on that they are scavengers (unless they were AP’s hustling promo’s). And if the casino gave every player $30 in free play, it does not make everyone into AP’s.

This is my view: scavenger and vulture are used interchangeably without distinction per the AP lexicon. However, for me “vulture” is different due to one aspect: you observe a ploppy on a machine and the game now becomes a play. If you stay and wait for ploppy to tap out, run out of time, switch demons, etc, you are vulturing. Scavenging is when you walk in and see a play immediately on an empty machine like $492 Minor on a RD or you have to check the machines to find plays. Standing directly behind or near someone on a live play is vulturing, not scavenging. Camping and vulturing will get you kicked out in my neighborhood casino. Some casinos are smarter than you think.

Interesting, I brought this vulturing subject up in a similar fashion on another forum just the other day. I mentioned that I was opposed to Advantage Players using negative words to describe such actions, no matter how accurate they might be(I forgot about the word scavenger). I cringed when I first heard a +EV player describing what he was doing as vulturing. I mentioned it was a bad term to use, especially if it if it catches on as a normal term. It just added another reason for the casinos to dislike any and all Advantage Players. By then, I think it was already too late. I rarely play those types of machines anymore so it is what it is.

I don't think I had even heard the term Advantage Player until well into the 2000s. I really didn't even like that term, it sounded like you were taking advantage or something thus being a slightly negative term.
I was hoping it would get changed to sniper or sniping but of course with all the mass shootings as of late that sounds really negative as well.
If you're an advantage player who is also a writer one might want to think about using positive terms instead of negative ones.
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The infamous Frankie Kneeland was one of the guys reading books at the machines in between bonus lights. I purposely avoided being at those locations when he was there knowing I wouldn't want to be around when the heat came down. Obviously it's a really bad idea to bring extra attention to a good play in a casino.
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There were definitely a few people putting jackets and buckets on on the slot seats. When I first started, there was one guy at the Rio who did this on two machines while playing poker in the poker room. Whenever the flush Attack Mode started he would dash out and start firing away at 2 machines, rinse and repeat. Even though I had just started(I was actually still working at the time) I knew that was a really stupid idea. Then again, his stupid idea made him around $100,000 on just that during that year, or so I was told, but when you're clocking in at 133% on two machines in a busy area the that would be easily attained.
To be fair, from what I understand this was his first machine Advantage situation and he realize this was a stupid thing to do and he went on to become fairly successful throughout the 90s and early 2000s. I have no idea where he is now since I haven't seen him for years.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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December 4th, 2019 at 11:57:43 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I dont see why kicking out paying customers is smart.

Vultures are not even taking any money from the casino as the games are being played perfectly to the rules.

Any casino that demands someone play a slot only when they want the person to play isnt very smart to me.

Perhaps locking up a machine with no play I can understand. The casino has a taken seat that they could fill with a paying customer.

But standing around waiting to play isnt anything that should get anyone kicked out imo



How do you(The most feared secretive well-known bus riding Advantage player on the East Coast)not understand this by now?

For now, I'm just going to categorize a certain group as machine hustlers. Many of these guys just look, dress and act terrible. Some of them may have been living on the subway for months just prior. Some of them smell and look like they just resurrected from a crack den.

From a Casino business standpoint, filling the machines with people who are going to take the money out of there Poppy's pockets(who usually give it all back) isn't a good idea.

We were are recently on a slot Progressive play where the slot Progressive was up super high. This number actually attracted the attention of one of their biggest regular high rollers who started playing it heavy. I could tell he was a little agitated by our presents because at that point we were just another face and direct competition to him that he had never seen before he was an idiot, he knew why were there and that we meant business(confirm violator competition cuz he took note to how long we have been there and the type of hours we were putting in). Definitely not someone you wanted to be on his bad side there's no doubt in my mind this guy had enough clout to get someone kicked out(I've seen this kind of stuff happen quite a few times). I Made a point to chat with him a little bit and he was a pretty cool guy with some interesting things to say. Perhaps my conversation with him helped he's any tensions and he forgot the fact that we were in competition against him but now it was all of us against the casino. I know it's probably very small chance that any of that made any difference whatsoever. But even if there's a small chance that it did it's well worth it in the long run.

Now had he hit the progressive he probably would have gave that all back within days, and of course, Advantage Players I got a bank that money, so I can understand why the casino doesn't want Advantage Players. I would only want Advantage players in my Casino if I could use them as a marketing tool since it really limits what kind of promotions you can have and what kind of machines you can install.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
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December 5th, 2019 at 5:37:53 AM permalink
In response to Axel's posts.

If vultures smell bad or are just hobos off the subway in filthy rags, (I guess they panhandled for enough to wager but never mind that logic) then that is the reason the casinos kicked the players out.

But are you telling me men in regular clothes who VULTURE (there I used the negative word) get kicked out for waiting when to play? again, to me that is a stupid move on a casino's part.

I dont know what you mean by "giving it all back" On vulture plays the entire community is technically involved in the play. The community "gives it back" Why should any one particular player have return of their money be a prerequisite for being allowed in the casino. AGAIN, with Vulturing, the casino LOSES NOTHING. The machines return is unaffected

The above paragraph also applies to ploppies who you say Vultures take the money from their pockets. I completely disagree. First off, the casino is taking the money from their pockets (even you state the. casinos goal is everyone gives anything they win back). With vulturing plays, this usually happens when the player approaches a positive state play and either thru lack of funds or understanding leaves. How would a vulture change the outcome there? If another ploppie who doesn't understand the game either sits down and plays and wins that makes him taking the other guys money? I simply disagree with yourn thinking and the casinos in vulture aspects.

As for terminology, I agree about negative versus positive aspects but you (collectively us that is) will never win because ANYTHING can become a negative even when it sounds positive and vice versa.

I am HIV NEGATIVE. (guess what, thats a positive statement)

I am sexually Care free (negative use of word free)

I am sexually Disease free (positive use of word free)

That dance move is da Bomb (positive use of word Bomb)

That movie is a Bomb (negative use of word bomb)

The list could go on for pages lol.

Finally to the negative/positive aspect, in Japan they dont have vultures as an indigenous animal so they dont call slot (Pachinko actually) players Vultures. Instead they call them Hyenas, a vulture like animal that is indigenous so its just human nature to make this type of comparison
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
sabre
sabre
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SOOPOO
December 5th, 2019 at 5:46:57 AM permalink
The machine loses nothing, but the casino sure as hell loses something. Expected future play. AP wins go into the bank, ploppy wins go back to the casino.
darkoz
darkoz
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December 5th, 2019 at 7:28:44 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

The machine loses nothing, but the casino sure as hell loses something. Expected future play. AP wins go into the bank, ploppy wins go back to the casino.



If the machine loses nothing then the casino loses nothing. You simply cant have it both ways.

Game designers factor in expected profit. If the game is delivering on expected profit as expected, who wins and who loses is inconsequential AND MORE SPECIFICALLY games that are vulturable are specifically designed that way.

If casinos deny patrons the ability to vulture a game designed to be vulturable, then that is what Hurts the casino bottom line imo.

If casinos dont want people to use the information purposefully given to them by game designers then they should not carry the machines. If they dont want Must Hits or Ultimate X or whatever that can be entered at an advantageous time then remove them. Otherwise they are implicitly stating that it is worthwhile to examine, digest and utilize that information

By your argument, casinos should care who wins or loses at table poker. The casino loses future business when poor players lose to poker pros and decide not to play anymore.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
sabre
sabre
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December 5th, 2019 at 7:50:22 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz


By your argument, casinos should care who wins or loses at table poker. The casino loses future business when poor players lose to poker pros and decide not to play anymore.



Of course they should.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Forager
December 5th, 2019 at 8:26:07 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

In response to Axel's posts.

If vultures smell bad or are just hobos off the subway in filthy rags, (I guess they panhandled for enough to wager but never mind that logic) then that is the reason the casinos kicked the players out.

But are you telling me men in regular clothes who VULTURE (there I used the negative word) get kicked out for waiting when to play? again, to me that is a stupid move on a casino's part.

I dont know what you mean by "giving it all back" On vulture plays the entire community is technically involved in the play. The community "gives it back" Why should any one particular player have return of their money be a prerequisite for being allowed in the casino. AGAIN, with Vulturing, the casino LOSES NOTHING. The machines return is unaffected

The above paragraph also applies to ploppies who you say Vultures take the money from their pockets. I completely disagree. First off, the casino is taking the money from their pockets (even you state the. casinos goal is everyone gives anything they win back). With vulturing plays, this usually happens when the player approaches a positive state play and either thru lack of funds or understanding leaves. How would a vulture change the outcome there? If another ploppie who doesn't understand the game either sits down and plays and wins that makes him taking the other guys money? I simply disagree with yourn thinking and the casinos in vulture aspects.

As for terminology, I agree about negative versus positive aspects but you (collectively us that is) will never win because ANYTHING can become a negative even when it sounds positive and vice versa.

I am HIV NEGATIVE. (guess what, thats a positive statement)

I am sexually Care free (negative use of word free)

I am sexually Disease free (positive use of word free)

That dance move is da Bomb (positive use of word Bomb)

That movie is a Bomb (negative use of word bomb)

The list could go on for pages lol.

Finally to the negative/positive aspect, in Japan they dont have vultures as an indigenous animal so they dont call slot (Pachinko actually) players Vultures. Instead they call them Hyenas, a vulture like animal that is indigenous so its just human nature to make this type of comparison

for the most part I have no idea what you're rambling on about. The casino doesn't give a rat's ass about the community, they really only care about making a profit.

Fact: Casinos will kicked out normal looking players for bonus hunting, or whatever you want to call it.
Fact: The casino loses money when an AP/ bonus Hunter/ vulture/sniper picks off bonuses the ploppies leaves behind. The main reason for this is because a savvy player will only play when he has an advantage if that's the you will never give the casino the opportunity and make the money back he has won. Ploppies and regular customers we'll get some/ part of or all of that bonus money back to this casino at some point.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

Arguing if they should care enough to take action is a different topic. It's probably not worth putting in a lot of effort going after the guys doing this. However, if I were them I would do occasional sweeps and toss out the most blatant offenders so the word gets out and the guys aren't so blatantly obvious about what they're doing and they use some discretion.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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