EVBandit
EVBandit
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 20
Joined: Nov 8, 2019
December 4th, 2019 at 6:08:32 PM permalink
My neighborhood casino is famous for “changing the chip” on their slots, e.g. they change the settings, paybacks, etc and “changing the chip” is an old term when casinos had to physically change the chip to have a new version (typically lower paying version). So I am set in my “old” ways.

PoP N Play is made by Gaming Arts LLC. This video slot game has 4 machines set in a circle (or carousel format) while others are set 2x2 in a stand alone bank. It first slots showed up in April of this year and quickly spread to other casinos. I’ve seen these machines in high limit as well with and without the MH’s.

Game has three progressives on screen AND three additional progressives on WAY TOP of the machines with MH’s (must hit or “must hit by” per WoO lingo) at $50, $300, and $1,000 respectively. The resets for the MH’s are north of $46, $280, and exactly $975, respectively.

There were two key observations for the game: (a) if you played solo, e.g. only player on the 4 machines, the $300 & $1K jackpots dropped or cracked early. If the machines were full, EACH MH generally hits close to the MH amount like $49.97 or $299.89 and $999+, respectively AND (b) the rules CLEARLY states probabilities to win jackpots are not a constant ... higher your bet, the better your chances so smart AP’s figured out in a “full environment” to slow play at min bet or wait until jackpot reaches close to MH and then make the biggest bets they can afford (since the players at the other three seats were generally betting the min) and the smart AP’s disproportionately win the MH’s due to large bets... the EV was enormous!!! My AP friends brags about the “overlay” while I tell they the “equity” was huge.

Side story: Over 20+ years ago, Sigma Gaming had a bimodal VP game called Flush Attack, e.g. after so many flushes, the next Flush paid an extra large amount. In some places, the machines were linked so anyone could get the extra large Flush. On a message board, some guy wrote about a guy reading a book with credits on his machine. The writer played the game and noticed no reaction from the guy with his nose in the book. As soon as the extra large Flush became lit (it was on the ON MODE), guy drops the book and plays as fast as possible. The writer stated he had no chance to get the lit Flush as he had to shove quarters to play while the guy had credits in the machine. After the guy hit the lit Flush, he went back to reading his book. So waiting for the meter to be primed is an old tactic and my in neighborhood casino, people who camp on these linked MH’s are 86’ed since my neighborhood casino has a zero tolerance policy for this behavior. No camping allowed ... go camping and scavenge at the other casinos.

In my neighborhood casino, we had teams of bonus hustlers (I call them vultures and scavengers but they call themselves AP’s lol) that would wait or loiter as the meters grow and then comes a mad dash of musical chairs as they were more hustlers than seats. So the hustlers evolved to taking a guaranteed seat and slow play ... so the market reacted a max pain point as to see who will jump in the earliest and endure the most loss in exchange for a guaranteed seat. Max pain point is an options term from the stock market.

We also had dumb teams of hustlers that turn seats around, put a jacket on the seat, or turn seat around and put in a $5 or $20 to lock up seats. This neighborhood casino kicked those losers out. Again, no camping allowed.

Anyway, I played last night and it was pretty clear to me the game changed (details omitted to protect my identity). This casino always make it harder to me to make money, especially with X-mas coming.

Full disclosure: I am not an AP but I will agree with you if you call me a scavenger (I don’t like to vulture). To be clear since a lot of people don’t know what an AP is: an AP is someone who can beat the casino playing a game off the top like counting cards in blackjack, or chases progressives for a living, or hustles casinos by playing generally minus EV games but wins promos consistently for net gains, etc. Waiting for a ploppy to leave equity in a bonus machine does not make you into an AP and the guy on advantageplayer(dot)com is a scavenger, not an AP. I’ve called people scavenging $100K MH’s scavengers and they agreed with me on that they are scavengers (unless they were AP’s hustling promo’s). And if the casino gave every player $30 in free play, it does not make everyone into AP’s.

This is my view: scavenger and vulture are used interchangeably without distinction per the AP lexicon. However, for me “vulture” is different due to one aspect: you observe a ploppy on a machine and the game now becomes a play. If you stay and wait for ploppy to tap out, run out of time, switch demons, etc, you are vulturing. Scavenging is when you walk in and see a play immediately on an empty machine like $492 Minor on a RD or you have to check the machines to find plays. Standing directly behind or near someone on a live play is vulturing, not scavenging. Camping and vulturing will get you kicked out in my neighborhood casino. Some casinos are smarter than you think.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 4th, 2019 at 9:09:34 PM permalink
I dont see why kicking out paying customers is smart.

Vultures are not even taking any money from the casino as the games are being played perfectly to the rules.

Any casino that demands someone play a slot only when they want the person to play isnt very smart to me.

Perhaps locking up a machine with no play I can understand. The casino has a taken seat that they could fill with a paying customer.

But standing around waiting to play isnt anything that should get anyone kicked out imo
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
bobbartop
bobbartop
  • Threads: 133
  • Posts: 2595
Joined: Mar 15, 2016
December 4th, 2019 at 9:10:18 PM permalink
Mickey has written at length about the Flush Attacks. Friend of yours?

edit: this was in reply to EvBandit, but DarkOz clicked his mouse a microsecond before I did. Watch that guy, he's quick.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
bobbartop
December 4th, 2019 at 11:17:38 PM permalink
Quote: EVBandit

My neighborhood casino is famous for “changing the chip” on their slots, e.g. they change the settings, paybacks, etc and “changing the chip” is an old term when casinos had to physically change the chip to have a new version (typically lower paying version). So I am set in my “old” ways.

PoP N Play is made by Gaming Arts LLC. This video slot game has 4 machines set in a circle (or carousel format) while others are set 2x2 in a stand alone bank. It first slots showed up in April of this year and quickly spread to other casinos. I’ve seen these machines in high limit as well with and without the MH’s.

Game has three progressives on screen AND three additional progressives on WAY TOP of the machines with MH’s (must hit or “must hit by” per WoO lingo) at $50, $300, and $1,000 respectively. The resets for the MH’s are north of $46, $280, and exactly $975, respectively.

There were two key observations for the game: (a) if you played solo, e.g. only player on the 4 machines, the $300 & $1K jackpots dropped or cracked early. If the machines were full, EACH MH generally hits close to the MH amount like $49.97 or $299.89 and $999+, respectively AND (b) the rules CLEARLY states probabilities to win jackpots are not a constant ... higher your bet, the better your chances so smart AP’s figured out in a “full environment” to slow play at min bet or wait until jackpot reaches close to MH and then make the biggest bets they can afford (since the players at the other three seats were generally betting the min) and the smart AP’s disproportionately win the MH’s due to large bets... the EV was enormous!!! My AP friends brags about the “overlay” while I tell they the “equity” was huge.

Side story: Over 20+ years ago, Sigma Gaming had a bimodal VP game called Flush Attack, e.g. after so many flushes, the next Flush paid an extra large amount. In some places, the machines were linked so anyone could get the extra large Flush. On a message board, some guy wrote about a guy reading a book with credits on his machine. The writer played the game and noticed no reaction from the guy with his nose in the book. As soon as the extra large Flush became lit (it was on the ON MODE), guy drops the book and plays as fast as possible. The writer stated he had no chance to get the lit Flush as he had to shove quarters to play while the guy had credits in the machine. After the guy hit the lit Flush, he went back to reading his book. So waiting for the meter to be primed is an old tactic and my in neighborhood casino, people who camp on these linked MH’s are 86’ed since my neighborhood casino has a zero tolerance policy for this behavior. No camping allowed ... go camping and scavenge at the other casinos.

In my neighborhood casino, we had teams of bonus hustlers (I call them vultures and scavengers but they call themselves AP’s lol) that would wait or loiter as the meters grow and then comes a mad dash of musical chairs as they were more hustlers than seats. So the hustlers evolved to taking a guaranteed seat and slow play ... so the market reacted a max pain point as to see who will jump in the earliest and endure the most loss in exchange for a guaranteed seat. Max pain point is an options term from the stock market.

We also had dumb teams of hustlers that turn seats around, put a jacket on the seat, or turn seat around and put in a $5 or $20 to lock up seats. This neighborhood casino kicked those losers out. Again, no camping allowed.

Anyway, I played last night and it was pretty clear to me the game changed (details omitted to protect my identity). This casino always make it harder to me to make money, especially with X-mas coming.

Full disclosure: I am not an AP but I will agree with you if you call me a scavenger (I don’t like to vulture). To be clear since a lot of people don’t know what an AP is: an AP is someone who can beat the casino playing a game off the top like counting cards in blackjack, or chases progressives for a living, or hustles casinos by playing generally minus EV games but wins promos consistently for net gains, etc. Waiting for a ploppy to leave equity in a bonus machine does not make you into an AP and the guy on advantageplayer(dot)com is a scavenger, not an AP. I’ve called people scavenging $100K MH’s scavengers and they agreed with me on that they are scavengers (unless they were AP’s hustling promo’s). And if the casino gave every player $30 in free play, it does not make everyone into AP’s.

This is my view: scavenger and vulture are used interchangeably without distinction per the AP lexicon. However, for me “vulture” is different due to one aspect: you observe a ploppy on a machine and the game now becomes a play. If you stay and wait for ploppy to tap out, run out of time, switch demons, etc, you are vulturing. Scavenging is when you walk in and see a play immediately on an empty machine like $492 Minor on a RD or you have to check the machines to find plays. Standing directly behind or near someone on a live play is vulturing, not scavenging. Camping and vulturing will get you kicked out in my neighborhood casino. Some casinos are smarter than you think.

Interesting, I brought this vulturing subject up in a similar fashion on another forum just the other day. I mentioned that I was opposed to Advantage Players using negative words to describe such actions, no matter how accurate they might be(I forgot about the word scavenger). I cringed when I first heard a +EV player describing what he was doing as vulturing. I mentioned it was a bad term to use, especially if it if it catches on as a normal term. It just added another reason for the casinos to dislike any and all Advantage Players. By then, I think it was already too late. I rarely play those types of machines anymore so it is what it is.

I don't think I had even heard the term Advantage Player until well into the 2000s. I really didn't even like that term, it sounded like you were taking advantage or something thus being a slightly negative term.
I was hoping it would get changed to sniper or sniping but of course with all the mass shootings as of late that sounds really negative as well.
If you're an advantage player who is also a writer one might want to think about using positive terms instead of negative ones.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The infamous Frankie Kneeland was one of the guys reading books at the machines in between bonus lights. I purposely avoided being at those locations when he was there knowing I wouldn't want to be around when the heat came down. Obviously it's a really bad idea to bring extra attention to a good play in a casino.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were definitely a few people putting jackets and buckets on on the slot seats. When I first started, there was one guy at the Rio who did this on two machines while playing poker in the poker room. Whenever the flush Attack Mode started he would dash out and start firing away at 2 machines, rinse and repeat. Even though I had just started(I was actually still working at the time) I knew that was a really stupid idea. Then again, his stupid idea made him around $100,000 on just that during that year, or so I was told, but when you're clocking in at 133% on two machines in a busy area the that would be easily attained.
To be fair, from what I understand this was his first machine Advantage situation and he realize this was a stupid thing to do and he went on to become fairly successful throughout the 90s and early 2000s. I have no idea where he is now since I haven't seen him for years.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
December 4th, 2019 at 11:57:43 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I dont see why kicking out paying customers is smart.

Vultures are not even taking any money from the casino as the games are being played perfectly to the rules.

Any casino that demands someone play a slot only when they want the person to play isnt very smart to me.

Perhaps locking up a machine with no play I can understand. The casino has a taken seat that they could fill with a paying customer.

But standing around waiting to play isnt anything that should get anyone kicked out imo



How do you(The most feared secretive well-known bus riding Advantage player on the East Coast)not understand this by now?

For now, I'm just going to categorize a certain group as machine hustlers. Many of these guys just look, dress and act terrible. Some of them may have been living on the subway for months just prior. Some of them smell and look like they just resurrected from a crack den.

From a Casino business standpoint, filling the machines with people who are going to take the money out of there Poppy's pockets(who usually give it all back) isn't a good idea.

We were are recently on a slot Progressive play where the slot Progressive was up super high. This number actually attracted the attention of one of their biggest regular high rollers who started playing it heavy. I could tell he was a little agitated by our presents because at that point we were just another face and direct competition to him that he had never seen before he was an idiot, he knew why were there and that we meant business(confirm violator competition cuz he took note to how long we have been there and the type of hours we were putting in). Definitely not someone you wanted to be on his bad side there's no doubt in my mind this guy had enough clout to get someone kicked out(I've seen this kind of stuff happen quite a few times). I Made a point to chat with him a little bit and he was a pretty cool guy with some interesting things to say. Perhaps my conversation with him helped he's any tensions and he forgot the fact that we were in competition against him but now it was all of us against the casino. I know it's probably very small chance that any of that made any difference whatsoever. But even if there's a small chance that it did it's well worth it in the long run.

Now had he hit the progressive he probably would have gave that all back within days, and of course, Advantage Players I got a bank that money, so I can understand why the casino doesn't want Advantage Players. I would only want Advantage players in my Casino if I could use them as a marketing tool since it really limits what kind of promotions you can have and what kind of machines you can install.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 5th, 2019 at 5:37:53 AM permalink
In response to Axel's posts.

If vultures smell bad or are just hobos off the subway in filthy rags, (I guess they panhandled for enough to wager but never mind that logic) then that is the reason the casinos kicked the players out.

But are you telling me men in regular clothes who VULTURE (there I used the negative word) get kicked out for waiting when to play? again, to me that is a stupid move on a casino's part.

I dont know what you mean by "giving it all back" On vulture plays the entire community is technically involved in the play. The community "gives it back" Why should any one particular player have return of their money be a prerequisite for being allowed in the casino. AGAIN, with Vulturing, the casino LOSES NOTHING. The machines return is unaffected

The above paragraph also applies to ploppies who you say Vultures take the money from their pockets. I completely disagree. First off, the casino is taking the money from their pockets (even you state the. casinos goal is everyone gives anything they win back). With vulturing plays, this usually happens when the player approaches a positive state play and either thru lack of funds or understanding leaves. How would a vulture change the outcome there? If another ploppie who doesn't understand the game either sits down and plays and wins that makes him taking the other guys money? I simply disagree with yourn thinking and the casinos in vulture aspects.

As for terminology, I agree about negative versus positive aspects but you (collectively us that is) will never win because ANYTHING can become a negative even when it sounds positive and vice versa.

I am HIV NEGATIVE. (guess what, thats a positive statement)

I am sexually Care free (negative use of word free)

I am sexually Disease free (positive use of word free)

That dance move is da Bomb (positive use of word Bomb)

That movie is a Bomb (negative use of word bomb)

The list could go on for pages lol.

Finally to the negative/positive aspect, in Japan they dont have vultures as an indigenous animal so they dont call slot (Pachinko actually) players Vultures. Instead they call them Hyenas, a vulture like animal that is indigenous so its just human nature to make this type of comparison
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
sabre
sabre
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 1172
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
Thanked by
SOOPOO
December 5th, 2019 at 5:46:57 AM permalink
The machine loses nothing, but the casino sure as hell loses something. Expected future play. AP wins go into the bank, ploppy wins go back to the casino.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 5th, 2019 at 7:28:44 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

The machine loses nothing, but the casino sure as hell loses something. Expected future play. AP wins go into the bank, ploppy wins go back to the casino.



If the machine loses nothing then the casino loses nothing. You simply cant have it both ways.

Game designers factor in expected profit. If the game is delivering on expected profit as expected, who wins and who loses is inconsequential AND MORE SPECIFICALLY games that are vulturable are specifically designed that way.

If casinos deny patrons the ability to vulture a game designed to be vulturable, then that is what Hurts the casino bottom line imo.

If casinos dont want people to use the information purposefully given to them by game designers then they should not carry the machines. If they dont want Must Hits or Ultimate X or whatever that can be entered at an advantageous time then remove them. Otherwise they are implicitly stating that it is worthwhile to examine, digest and utilize that information

By your argument, casinos should care who wins or loses at table poker. The casino loses future business when poor players lose to poker pros and decide not to play anymore.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
sabre
sabre
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 1172
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
December 5th, 2019 at 7:50:22 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz


By your argument, casinos should care who wins or loses at table poker. The casino loses future business when poor players lose to poker pros and decide not to play anymore.



Of course they should.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
Forager
December 5th, 2019 at 8:26:07 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

In response to Axel's posts.

If vultures smell bad or are just hobos off the subway in filthy rags, (I guess they panhandled for enough to wager but never mind that logic) then that is the reason the casinos kicked the players out.

But are you telling me men in regular clothes who VULTURE (there I used the negative word) get kicked out for waiting when to play? again, to me that is a stupid move on a casino's part.

I dont know what you mean by "giving it all back" On vulture plays the entire community is technically involved in the play. The community "gives it back" Why should any one particular player have return of their money be a prerequisite for being allowed in the casino. AGAIN, with Vulturing, the casino LOSES NOTHING. The machines return is unaffected

The above paragraph also applies to ploppies who you say Vultures take the money from their pockets. I completely disagree. First off, the casino is taking the money from their pockets (even you state the. casinos goal is everyone gives anything they win back). With vulturing plays, this usually happens when the player approaches a positive state play and either thru lack of funds or understanding leaves. How would a vulture change the outcome there? If another ploppie who doesn't understand the game either sits down and plays and wins that makes him taking the other guys money? I simply disagree with yourn thinking and the casinos in vulture aspects.

As for terminology, I agree about negative versus positive aspects but you (collectively us that is) will never win because ANYTHING can become a negative even when it sounds positive and vice versa.

I am HIV NEGATIVE. (guess what, thats a positive statement)

I am sexually Care free (negative use of word free)

I am sexually Disease free (positive use of word free)

That dance move is da Bomb (positive use of word Bomb)

That movie is a Bomb (negative use of word bomb)

The list could go on for pages lol.

Finally to the negative/positive aspect, in Japan they dont have vultures as an indigenous animal so they dont call slot (Pachinko actually) players Vultures. Instead they call them Hyenas, a vulture like animal that is indigenous so its just human nature to make this type of comparison

for the most part I have no idea what you're rambling on about. The casino doesn't give a rat's ass about the community, they really only care about making a profit.

Fact: Casinos will kicked out normal looking players for bonus hunting, or whatever you want to call it.
Fact: The casino loses money when an AP/ bonus Hunter/ vulture/sniper picks off bonuses the ploppies leaves behind. The main reason for this is because a savvy player will only play when he has an advantage if that's the you will never give the casino the opportunity and make the money back he has won. Ploppies and regular customers we'll get some/ part of or all of that bonus money back to this casino at some point.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

Arguing if they should care enough to take action is a different topic. It's probably not worth putting in a lot of effort going after the guys doing this. However, if I were them I would do occasional sweeps and toss out the most blatant offenders so the word gets out and the guys aren't so blatantly obvious about what they're doing and they use some discretion.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
standbymyman
standbymyman
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 182
Joined: Feb 13, 2015
December 5th, 2019 at 8:57:58 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

If the machine loses nothing then the casino loses nothing. You simply cant have it both ways.

Game designers factor in expected profit. If the game is delivering on expected profit as expected, who wins and who loses is inconsequential AND MORE SPECIFICALLY games that are vulturable are specifically designed that way.

If casinos deny patrons the ability to vulture a game designed to be vulturable, then that is what Hurts the casino bottom line imo.

If casinos dont want people to use the information purposefully given to them by game designers then they should not carry the machines. If they dont want Must Hits or Ultimate X or whatever that can be entered at an advantageous time then remove them. Otherwise they are implicitly stating that it is worthwhile to examine, digest and utilize that information

By your argument, casinos should care who wins or loses at table poker. The casino loses future business when poor players lose to poker pros and decide not to play anymore.







You just refuse to understand. AP keeps the jackpot, ploppy takes the newfound wealth and is able to expand his play so lots of other machines take in future profit from that play. Sounds like you are a vulture that is singing your silly song to the casino execs.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 5th, 2019 at 9:53:41 AM permalink
Quote: standbymyman

You just refuse to understand. AP keeps the jackpot, ploppy takes the newfound wealth and is able to expand his play so lots of other machines take in future profit from that play. Sounds like you are a vulture that is singing your silly song to the casino execs.



I can argue that you dont understand either.

The casino should not be examining who in particular is winning (whether they actually do or not is not my point. casinos often act stupid).

The bottom line is simply not affected when a slot machine takes in the profit it is supposed too regardless of whether a vulture won.

Your argument is a hypothetical. There is no GUARANTEE that a winning ploppie will return and gamble back his winnings. some plopplies in fact make only casual visits to the casino, once a year, perhaps once a decade.

Many times people are ploppies precisely because they dont individually go often to the casino (and dont notice the obvious plays as a result). So there is no guarantee a casino will see any return of money won by ploppies

The only quantifiable, absolute here is that if the slot machine is making its expected profit, then the casino is not losing money.

Now I am not arguing that casinos dont do stupid thungs. sure they do.. But kicking out people who onky play when they choose to play (because of an advantage) and it doesn't affect the slot machines profit in any way os is stupid in my book)

EDIT: I should also point out that in the only logical state to regulate this type of thing, New Jersey, it would actually be illegal to trespass a person simply because they only gambled a vulturable game when advantageous.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
December 5th, 2019 at 10:54:25 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I can argue that you dont understand either.

The casino should not be examining who in particular is winning (whether they actually do or not is not my point. casinos often act stupid).

The bottom line is simply not affected when a slot machine takes in the profit it is supposed too regardless of whether a vulture won.

Your argument is a hypothetical. There is no GUARANTEE that a winning ploppie will return and gamble back his winnings. some plopplies in fact make only casual visits to the casino, once a year, perhaps once a decade.

Many times people are ploppies precisely because they dont individually go often to the casino (and dont notice the obvious plays as a result). So there is no guarantee a casino will see any return of money won by ploppies

The only quantifiable, absolute here is that if the slot machine is making its expected profit, then the casino is not losing money.

Now I am not arguing that casinos dont do stupid thungs. sure they do.. But kicking out people who onky play when they choose to play (because of an advantage) and it doesn't affect the slot machines profit in any way os is stupid in my book)

EDIT: I should also point out that in the only logical state to regulate this type of thing, New Jersey, it would actually be illegal to trespass a person simply because they only gambled a vulturable game when advantageous.

And that's how it should be everywhere, but it's not.

You are correct, there's no guarantee all ploppies will give all the money back, however, it's almost certain the the ploppies will give back more than the the AP's.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 5th, 2019 at 11:13:41 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

And that's how it should be everywhere, but it's not.

You are correct, there's no guarantee all ploppies will give all the money back, however, it's almost certain the the ploppies will give back more than the the AP's.



I agree with you there.

there are plenty of similar things in other markets.

Should supermarkets ban people who take advantage only of shopping specials because they will make more profit from people who shop when specials are not available?

Should fast food restaurants ban people who only use free hamburger coupons?

I find it really disingenuous of the casinos to feel they are somehow entitled to pick and choose from their clientele pertaining to things that they offer (like vulturable games)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
December 5th, 2019 at 2:33:40 PM permalink
I've posted before about Radio Shacks marketing tactic:: give away a free flashlight and sell los of batteries then six months later give away batteries and sell lots of flashlights. Those brave souls who only took the freebies were a cost of doing business. Casinos offer a mix of games and hope to get a mix of customers. Some bottom feeding or cream skimming will always be a part of the picture.
EVBandit
EVBandit
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 20
Joined: Nov 8, 2019
December 5th, 2019 at 10:16:58 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I dont see why kicking out paying customers is smart.

Vultures are not even taking any money from the casino as the games are being played perfectly to the rules.

Any casino that demands someone play a slot only when they want the person to play isnt very smart to me.

Perhaps locking up a machine with no play I can understand. The casino has a taken seat that they could fill with a paying customer.

But standing around waiting to play isnt anything that should get anyone kicked out imo



Every casino is different. Camping falls under the rubric of “loitering”.

If the casino can kick you out for loitering, it can kick you out for camping, vulturing, scavenging, etc.

The worse was when just about every homeless person knew about Golden Egypt and started camping and vulturing in the casino. The casino was non-plusssed to see this situation.

Some vultures ARE hostile as they stand directly behind the ploppy and some vultures pressure Ploppies to give up machines like Scarabs at spin 8 or 9 will numerous cells on the screen.

Here’s the rule: You need to know what the rules are at the casino you are playing; ignorance is not a defense.
EVBandit
EVBandit
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 20
Joined: Nov 8, 2019
December 5th, 2019 at 10:49:59 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

In response to Axel's posts.

If vultures smell bad or are just hobos off the subway in filthy rags, (I guess they panhandled for enough to wager but never mind that logic) then that is the reason the casinos kicked the players out.

But are you telling me men in regular clothes who VULTURE (there I used the negative word) get kicked out for waiting when to play? again, to me that is a stupid move on a casino's part.

I dont know what you mean by "giving it all back" On vulture plays the entire community is technically involved in the play. The community "gives it back" Why should any one particular player have return of their money be a prerequisite for being allowed in the casino. AGAIN, with Vulturing, the casino LOSES NOTHING. The machines return is unaffected

The above paragraph also applies to ploppies who you say Vultures take the money from their pockets. I completely disagree. First off, the casino is taking the money from their pockets (even you state the. casinos goal is everyone gives anything they win back). With vulturing plays, this usually happens when the player approaches a positive state play and either thru lack of funds or understanding leaves. How would a vulture change the outcome there? If another ploppie who doesn't understand the game either sits down and plays and wins that makes him taking the other guys money? I simply disagree with yourn thinking and the casinos in vulture aspects.

As for terminology, I agree about negative versus positive aspects but you (collectively us that is) will never win because ANYTHING can become a negative even when it sounds positive and vice versa.

I am HIV NEGATIVE. (guess what, thats a positive statement)

I am sexually Care free (negative use of word free)

I am sexually Disease free (positive use of word free)

That dance move is da Bomb (positive use of word Bomb)

That movie is a Bomb (negative use of word bomb)

The list could go on for pages lol.

Finally to the negative/positive aspect, in Japan they dont have vultures as an indigenous animal so they dont call slot (Pachinko actually) players Vultures. Instead they call them Hyenas, a vulture like animal that is indigenous so its just human nature to make this type of comparison



It’s clear to me you obviously haven’t been around the block long enough (and this is my opinion of you!). You haven’t seen casinos pound back after getting pounded by vultures. You haven’t seen the number of complaints by Ploppies. You are just ignorant or clueless (again, this is my opinion of you based on your posts in this thread).

I am only stating facts. I’ve seen casino de-content as in remove beatable bonus games. I’ve seen casinos put in lower pay table slots as a result of vultures.

I’ve seen bonus hustlers and vultures who were shocked at their first lifetime expulsion. They just never saw it coming. I saw it coming because the security told me about it. I just mind my own business unless they cheat the casino or cheat customers. If I catch you cheating the casino or scamming or being hostile to customers, I will not hesitate reporting you to security. Keep in mind, you are being filmed and your presence in the casino means you gave consent to being filmed.

My friend has 6 casinos within a one-hour drive from him and the casinos let the scavengers remain and play SO LONG as they gamble a bit, e.g. give some of their winnings back. All the vultures were 86’ed. One vulture got 86’ed at one casino, then another, then another until all 6 casinos did not want him. He used to spend 10 to 14 hours a day from Wed to Sun plus Holidays and bragged about how much money he made, he just bought a new car with cash from winnings, he was eating for free, etc. It took 9 months for him to lose everything. He will never make another penny for the rest of his life from those 6 casinos.

The number one reason this vulture was 86’ed was standing too close to Ploppies and considered to be hostile per the casino(s) and the number two reason was him “stealing” plays from other scavengers, e.g. jumping in front off or cutting another scavenger off. He did to my friend in the first three casinos and my friend complained and so did other hustlers. No one misses him.

If you vulture, just don’t be hostile to the Ploppies that are playing. And don’t camp out so fights break out amongst the scavengers because that p*ssed off security and surveillance. These are not your machines and most casinos have a rule that guests cannot block machines.

I was around during the golden age of bonus machines in early 2000’s and read on message boards about some vulture in Las Vegas who was making $20,000 a week and did not want competition so fights would break out, and when fights with knives started ... that’s when casinos started adopting the No Camping Rule.

I tell every scavenger in my network: go to a casino, make your money and don’t do anything to get kicked out.
EVBandit
EVBandit
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 20
Joined: Nov 8, 2019
December 5th, 2019 at 10:57:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I can argue that you dont understand either.

The casino should not be examining who in particular is winning (whether they actually do or not is not my point. casinos often act stupid).

The bottom line is simply not affected when a slot machine takes in the profit it is supposed too regardless of whether a vulture won.

Your argument is a hypothetical. There is no GUARANTEE that a winning ploppie will return and gamble back his winnings. some plopplies in fact make only casual visits to the casino, once a year, perhaps once a decade.

Many times people are ploppies precisely because they dont individually go often to the casino (and dont notice the obvious plays as a result). So there is no guarantee a casino will see any return of money won by ploppies

The only quantifiable, absolute here is that if the slot machine is making its expected profit, then the casino is not losing money.

Now I am not arguing that casinos dont do stupid thungs. sure they do.. But kicking out people who onky play when they choose to play (because of an advantage) and it doesn't affect the slot machines profit in any way os is stupid in my book)

EDIT: I should also point out that in the only logical state to regulate this type of thing, New Jersey, it would actually be illegal to trespass a person simply because they only gambled a vulturable game when advantageous.



Opinions are not facts.

You love arguing opinions.

Here’s a simple fact: I was taught a casino will welcome my business SO LONG as I gamble in good faith, e.g. that I give the casino’s a fair chance at my bankroll.

Vultures (as defined in original post) are not gambling, much less gambling in good faith.

Every business I am aware off in the US has the right to refuse service to anyone and that includes casinos.

Btw, I got my start in Atlantic City in 1995 where Jazbo was based; I played a lot of Piggy Bankin’ and beatable bimodal video poker. So I know AC regulations. Even AC casino’s had the right to kick certain people out. And there were fights, especially over Piggy Bankin’ in $1 denominations.
EVBandit
EVBandit
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 20
Joined: Nov 8, 2019
December 5th, 2019 at 11:29:16 PM permalink
Here’s the problem with Vultures.

At one casino, it just put in a bank of Wild Pirates and in multi denominations.

One guy decides to camp out all day right behind the players. As soon as a ploppy gets up, he checks every game of the first denomination and then every game of the second denominations. He plays the +EV and leaves the bad ones and goes back to his seat. At lunchtime, his partner takes his place and this goes on all day and night.

The other bonus hustlers want to check for plays too.

Fights break out. Security gets involved and a few players were given suspensions as in stay away from the casino for a while. After a few suspensions, then it’s the ban hammer and congrats you just won a lifetime ban.

I have had vultures physically shove me off a machine. I get yelled at constantly. I have been threaten and sometimes threaten with physical harm, etc.

The problem is these new folks never learned the No Camping rule. So why do some people get to lock up the best machines. The answer is they can’t. It’s not their machines.

As you can see the Vultures HATE competition and it gets worse when teams are involved.

In contrast at another casino, the bonus hustlers agree not to camp and everyone walks around so everyone has a chance to make money. There is no fighting. We have a gentlemen’s agreement that first one there gets it. You might see some will vulture a play and then move on, but no one stays or locks up a bank of machines all night. We make our money and then call it a night and all is good.

Every casino is different. All I can say is be grateful the casino’s haven’t actively enforce the No Camping Rule. It’s a rule dating back to 2001 or so. This rule falls under the No Loitering rule.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11553
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 6th, 2019 at 4:25:22 AM permalink
Its funny how everyone arguing vulturing gets you kicked out in the last 4 or so posts says something like,

"then fistfights broke out"

"then knives were flashed"

"then I was shoved off the machine"

Duh! I never said people who brandish knives, start fistfights and shove people off machines were being wrongfully evicted.

And obviously THATS WHY THEY WERE KICKED OUT.

Vultures who simply check a machine to see where the state of the game is by cycling thru denominations and either sit a few feet away or walk around in a circuit looking for these machine opportunities is what I am defending.

Aggressive violence regardless of the reason (vulturing or whatever) is not the issue here
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
  • Jump to: