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AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Thanks for this post from:
Mission146tringlomane
November 12th, 2019 at 1:56:48 PM permalink
Quote: Dobrij

Yes, on a long distance everything is OK, but in the first versions the game started with 4 ďcoinsĒ. I donít want to argue about the terminology, (with all due respect to the company), but this manufacturer didnít know that the player will collect bonuses from run away...

What do you mean "they didn't know player will collect bonus from runaway"

By that do you mean the manufacturer made a mistake and didn't realize players would abandoned machines in positive state and there would be guys going around and making a living from it? How could they(I'll use IGT is an example) not know this since they have been designing games like this probably going back to the 80s? Perhaps it wasn't quite clear to them for a while, but after the Vision series came out in the 90's (Diamond Mine, cherry pies, and far too many other titles to mention) they would have to be total idiots not to realize this was a thing. Especially if you consider the fact that there's been numerous complaints and problems with these types of machines included but not limited to actual physical altercations. There was even a stabbing over these types of games in the past.

It's their own greed that causes the problem. They keep trying to design games that will keep the players playing longer.Accumulating bonus systems,or whatever you want to call it, seems to be their go-to way of doing this Justin different variations.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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November 12th, 2019 at 2:53:19 PM permalink
Quote: Dobrij

Yes, on a long distance everything is OK, but in the first versions the game started with 4 ďcoinsĒ. I donít want to argue about the terminology, (with all due respect to the company), but this manufacturer didnít know that the player will collect bonuses from run away...



If you're referring to the online thing, that was a one-time error predicated on the fact that the expectation was not that a player would simply play the positive situation and then quit playing the game. The problem was not in the design of the game, but in the fact that there was nobody else to play that, "Machine," when the first player was done. For any physical machines of this type, any starting state +EV (which mostly doesn't exist anymore) is just a drop in the bucket.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Dobrij
Dobrij
Joined: Jun 6, 2012
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November 12th, 2019 at 3:42:48 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

If you're referring to the online thing, that was a one-time error predicated on the fact that the expectation was not that a player would simply play the positive situation and then quit playing the game. The problem was not in the design of the game, but in the fact that there was nobody else to play that, "Machine," when the first player was done. For any physical machines of this type, any starting state +EV (which mostly doesn't exist anymore) is just a drop in the bucket.



How? An average of 10,000 from one machine if you go through all the denominations starting from high : ) Pay attention to what I wrote, in the first versions the game started with 4 coins. Are you a lawyer for IGT? : ))

I'm already losing the thread of discussion. Can you just explain what you're trying to convey?

I will explain, it seems to me that they are not seriously looking for such bonuses, this is a job for the most unskilled players :) and the fact that this inflates such discussions seems even more ridiculous
W2B.LT
Mission146
Mission146
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November 12th, 2019 at 4:21:37 PM permalink
Quote: Dobrij

How? An average of 10,000 from one machine if you go through all the denominations starting from high : ) Pay attention to what I wrote, in the first versions the game started with 4 coins. Are you a lawyer for IGT? : ))

I'm already losing the thread of discussion. Can you just explain what you're trying to convey?

I will explain, it seems to me that they are not seriously looking for such bonuses, this is a job for the most unskilled players :) and the fact that this inflates such discussions seems even more ridiculous



First Paragraph: Because itís designed to be a highly negative expectation game and is in the long run, online version aside.

Second Paragraph: No, but you can read it as many times as may be necessary.

Third Paragraph: You could have deflated the discussion by having never posted about it in the first place.
Vultures can't be choosers.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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November 13th, 2019 at 1:53:28 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

First Paragraph: Because itís designed to be a highly negative expectation game and is in the long run, online version aside.

Second Paragraph: No, but you can read it as many times as may be necessary.

Third Paragraph: You could have deflated the discussion by having never posted about it in the first place.

Is he talking about the initial game seeding for new installs? From my understanding they cut down on the amount they were seeding them with.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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November 13th, 2019 at 3:32:30 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Is he talking about the initial game seeding for new installs? From my understanding they cut down on the amount they were seeding them with.



That's the way I took it. But if that only the first spin on the lifetime on the machine? Who cares (unless it's huge bets)? And yes, I'm pretty sure it's not as good as 4 coins on board anymore. I'm pretty sure I have played a brand new unit before this year, and one coin were on one and three, which is marginal.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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November 13th, 2019 at 4:23:17 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

That's the way I took it. But if that only the first spin on the lifetime on the machine? Who cares (unless it's huge bets)? And yes, I'm pretty sure it's not as good as 4 coins on board anymore. I'm pretty sure I have played a brand new unit before this year, and one coin were on one and three, which is marginal.

Perhaps different regions have different standards of which they have to seed them at. I haven't had the pleasure of playing a newly seeded game so my question is was it only seeded once per bet or one spin only or was it program to reseed for X number of spins after and then stop reseeding?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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November 15th, 2019 at 7:51:14 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Is he talking about the initial game seeding for new installs? From my understanding they cut down on the amount they were seeding them with.



Yeah, he's saying they used to start with four coins, which would be pretty massive since there are 25 different game states. Obviously, that was the huge exploit with the online thing, but in an actual casino where it's not play while it's good and then never play again, (other players) the negative EV eventually works itself out and the machine operates profitably. I could see where this might be a bigger problem on high-limit, not only because it's obviously more money, but also because the machine likely sees less (spins) action.

Anyway, I've heard four coins, I've heard five coins, I've heard Reels 1-3-5, who the hell knows what's true and what isn't? I saw some machine resets and they were one coin, Reel 3 only...maybe it was Reel 4...not playable either way.
Vultures can't be choosers.
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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Thanks for this post from:
AxelWolfonenickelmiracle
November 18th, 2019 at 2:15:46 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Perhaps different regions have different standards of which they have to seed them at. I haven't had the pleasure of playing a newly seeded game so my question is was it only seeded once per bet or one spin only or was it program to reseed for X number of spins after and then stop reseeding?



Very first spin for every line setting/denomination.

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