casinoking000
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June 13th, 2018 at 9:36:43 PM permalink
I figured you guys are experts so this is the best place to ask.

So I get invited to these slot tournaments held at various MGM properties. With the exception of the circus circus every property assigns machines to players PRIOR to the tournament.

My concern, is that this could be ripe for rigging. After researching I know that there are various tournament chips that have differing payback percentages. For example one IGT tournament mode chip can return 500 percent while another 2000 percent for the same exact game. The obvious problem with this, is that the casino would know which machines have the higher paying chips and could assign these machines to their “most valuable” customers.

I’m not even sure this would be against gaming regulations since technically you could obtain a higher score on a 500 percent payback chip than a 2000 percent chip even if it’s unlikely.

Does anyone have any feedback on this?
LuckyPhow
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June 14th, 2018 at 6:55:27 AM permalink
Quote: casinoking000

I get invited to these slot tournaments held at various MGM properties. With the exception of the circus circus every property assigns machines to players PRIOR to the tournament.



REALLY? This has happened to you on multiple occasions? I'm aghast!

Surely there are other WoV members who have recent experience playing slot tournaments at MGM properties. Please, someone say this isn't so.
smoothgrh
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June 14th, 2018 at 7:48:58 AM permalink
Quote: casinoking000

For example one IGT tournament mode chip can return 500 percent while another 2000 percent for the same exact game. The obvious problem with this, is that the casino would know which machines have the higher paying chips and could assign these machines to their “most valuable” customers.



While what you say is possible, I think it's highly unlikely unless there's a ridiculously concerted effort. First, a machine that's set higher and does indeed win more would probably be noticed by regular players as being "luckier." To mask that, they would have to go into the slot machine menus for two machines and change the tournament settings, which wouldn't take too long, but the tech would have to be shielded so nobody sees what's going on.

Finally, the assignment system would have to be coordinated with all the floor people so that the "valuable" customer gets the better machine. Can non-management people keep a secret that well?

Isn't there a randomized system for assigning people machines, like how poker rooms use a randomizer system to assign poker tournament seats. (Yes, the computer can be manipulated, but that's another level of coordination for something like MAYBE helping a more-valuable customer.)
Romes
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June 14th, 2018 at 8:00:18 AM permalink
With all my experience I wouldn't put it past casinos and I don't think it would be all that hard to rig things. They do it all the time. There's casinos that have been caught "palming" a winning ticket for a specific person. There's casinos that absolutely rig drawings by giving top players 1,000,000 extra entries while the regular joe has 2 entries. Rivers casino in PA was caught short decking their blackjack shoe games years and years ago and were fined, yet that just got swept under the rug and no one even talks about it anymore. Casinos absolutely cheat, and have been caught cheating...
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
casinoking000
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June 14th, 2018 at 8:21:27 AM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

While what you say is possible, I think it's highly unlikely unless there's a ridiculously concerted effort. First, a machine that's set higher and does indeed win more would probably be noticed by regular players as being "luckier." To mask that, they would have to go into the slot machine menus for two machines and change the tournament settings, which wouldn't take too long, but the tech would have to be shielded so nobody sees what's going on.

Finally, the assignment system would have to be coordinated with all the floor people so that the "valuable" customer gets the better machine. Can non-management people keep a secret that well?

Isn't there a randomized system for assigning people machines, like how poker rooms use a randomizer system to assign poker tournament seats. (Yes, the computer can be manipulated, but that's another level of coordination for something like MAYBE helping a more-valuable customer.)



I’m not sure it would require a whole lot of coordination to put a higher paying chip in a couple machines document those machine numbers and then assign those machines to the most valued players.
mcallister3200
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June 14th, 2018 at 8:27:38 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

. Rivers casino in PA was caught short decking their blackjack shoe games years and years ago and were fined, yet that just got swept under the rug and no one even talks about it anymore..



With the limited number of licenses at that time, and the absurd profitability of the PA market, that probably should have meant revoking their license. Ridiculous.
smoothgrh
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June 14th, 2018 at 9:20:00 AM permalink
Quote: casinoking000

I’m not sure it would require a whole lot of coordination to put a higher paying chip in a couple machines document those machine numbers and then assign those machines to the most valued players.



I suppose that if a casino really wanted to cheat, that would be a plausible way to do it.

We're not assuaging anyone's fears!
Last edited by: smoothgrh on Jun 14, 2018
onenickelmiracle
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June 14th, 2018 at 9:52:47 AM permalink
Chris Hansen better get on top of this and off those pedophiles.
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FCBLComish
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June 16th, 2018 at 5:53:30 PM permalink
So, this conspiracy would have to include the slot techs who set up the machines, and the marketing promotions clerks or slot attendants who seat the players.

Do you really think that SOMEONE would have dropped a dime on the whole operation if that was going on? I mean there is a LOT of money to be made blowing the whistle on something like that.

We are talking about MGM here, not Joe's local tavern and back room gambling joint.
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AxelWolf
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June 16th, 2018 at 10:37:13 PM permalink
"For example one IGT tournament mode chip can return 500 percent while another 2000 percent for the same exact game"

And I would assume if the casino wanted to assure a particular person would win the tournament they would probably be dumb enough to set it at 2000% and leave the others at 500%. This would be noticed by just about any halfway educated gambler. A red flag would be an extreme understatement since the scores on the 2000% machines would reach near impossible levels from that of a 500% payback machine. Have you noticed scores on multiple occasions that are way above the avrage?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
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June 16th, 2018 at 10:51:07 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

"For example one IGT tournament mode chip can return 500 percent while another 2000 percent for the same exact game"

And I would assume if the casino wanted to assure a particular person would win the tournament they would probably be dumb enough to set it at 2000% and leave the others at 500%. This would be noticed by just about any halfway educated gambler. A red flag would be an extreme understatement since the scores on the 2000% machines would reach near impossible levels from that of a 500% payback machine. Have you noticed scores on multiple occasions that are way above the avrage?


That's kinda what I was thinking. But it wouldn't have to be that drastic. Set all machines to 500% and the VIP's to 600-700% and he's got some pretty good odds to win.

Idk exactly how they can set machines, but can't they do it remotely? I know tournament machines are obviously set up differently than regular machines, but that would be a possible way of doing it.

Idk if they're doing it or not. IMO it'd be fairly unlikely for that to be happening, but it doesn't mean it's not.
AxelWolf
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June 16th, 2018 at 11:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: RS

That's kinda what I was thinking. But it wouldn't have to be that drastic. Set all machines to 500% and the VIP's to 600-700% and he's got some pretty good odds to win.

Idk exactly how they can set machines, but can't they do it remotely? I know tournament machines are obviously set up differently than regular machines, but that would be a possible way of doing it.

Idk if they're doing it or not. IMO it'd be fairly unlikely for that to be happening, but it doesn't mean it's not.

I That's what someone who put some thought into it would do. Not many casino employees put much thought into stuff. We would have to ask someone in the know what kind of different tournament setting they have on the same machines. I would think they probably have 500%, 1000%, 2000%. It just doesn't make much sense to create all different kinds of tournament settings.

Even a 1000% setting would be very noticeable VS a 500% setting.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ZenKinG
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June 17th, 2018 at 12:34:25 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

With all my experience I wouldn't put it past casinos and I don't think it would be all that hard to rig things. They do it all the time. There's casinos that have been caught "palming" a winning ticket for a specific person. There's casinos that absolutely rig drawings by giving top players 1,000,000 extra entries while the regular joe has 2 entries. Rivers casino in PA was caught short decking their blackjack shoe games years and years ago and were fined, yet that just got swept under the rug and no one even talks about it anymore. Casinos absolutely cheat, and have been caught cheating...



And silently everyone one day will agree with the king about the cheating that is going on today surrounding blackjack. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out why preshuffled cards are being used. They literally save no time whatsoever, if any by using them and they STILL throw them in the ASM to shuffle LOL. All it does is kill any transparency from casino to patron.

More and more stories of blackjack cheating will continue to surface as time goes on sadly. And guess what? Like I said again, NOTHING ever happens to them. So the counter argument about casinos having too much to lose to risk cheating is completely ludicrous. You can bet there is vast amounts of cheating going in this mob ridden town. Bellagio, Caesars, and Planet Hollywood are the top 3 rigged ones and coincidentally are located smack dab in the middle of the vegas strip. Hmmm. Just a matter of time until the truth eventually comes out and the result will be a slap on the wrist.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Jmarch79
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June 17th, 2018 at 12:59:49 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

And silently everyone one day will agree with the king about the cheating that is going on today surrounding blackjack. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out why preshuffled cards are being used. They literally save no time whatsoever, if any by using them and they STILL throw them in the ASM to shuffle LOL. All it does is kill any transparency from casino to patron.

More and more stories of blackjack cheating will continue to surface as time goes on sadly. And guess what? Like I said again, NOTHING ever happens to them. So the counter argument about casinos having too much to lose to risk cheating is completely ludicrous. You can bet there is vast amounts of cheating going in this mob ridden town. Bellagio, Caesars, and Planet Hollywood are the top 3 rigged ones and coincidentally are located smack dab in the middle of the vegas strip. Hmmm. Just a matter of time until the truth eventually comes out and the result will be a slap on the wrist.



If casinos cheating at blackjack is such an epidemic, how do you make a decent living (according to you) playing the game?
casinoking000
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June 17th, 2018 at 12:19:37 PM permalink
Quote: RS

That's kinda what I was thinking. But it wouldn't have to be that drastic. Set all machines to 500% and the VIP's to 600-700% and he's got some pretty good odds to win.

Idk exactly how they can set machines, but can't they do it remotely? I know tournament machines are obviously set up differently than regular machines, but that would be a possible way of doing it.

Idk if they're doing it or not. IMO it'd be fairly unlikely for that to be happening, but it doesn't mean it's not.



The machines they use are the old school 3 reel that have chips to determine the payback percentage.

All it takes is a quick google search to see tournament chips that have paybacks ranging from 500-2000 percent. Of course they would likely not have a 500 percent chip in one machine and a 2000 percent chip in the other. It would most likely be a 500 percent chip in the majority and a 600 percent chip in a few.

All I know is the last few I’ve played at Mandalay Bay there was a slot tech standing in the area the entire time. Sure he could have just been there in case a machine broke but it’s not like he would fix it in the middle of an active tournament anyway.

This thread was just food for thought. Again I don’t even think if the casino did this it would be considered against any rules.

As for the 2000 percent machine being obvious, people would probably just think the player got lucky.

Also you have to understand how much the casino is making off of these things. Personally I’d spend $1500 a day when invited to a tournament and I’m not even a high roller. So for someone who spends day 5K a day having them not win anything in the tourney would surely leave a bad taste in their mouths.
casinoking000
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June 17th, 2018 at 12:26:21 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

"For example one IGT tournament mode chip can return 500 percent while another 2000 percent for the same exact game"

And I would assume if the casino wanted to assure a particular person would win the tournament they would probably be dumb enough to set it at 2000% and leave the others at 500%. This would be noticed by just about any halfway educated gambler. A red flag would be an extreme understatement since the scores on the 2000% machines would reach near impossible levels from that of a 500% payback machine. Have you noticed scores on multiple occasions that are way above the avrage?



Yes, and I did notice crazy scores and I documented it the last time I played.

The same machine posted a 17000, 15000 and 12000 score in three seperate rounds while the average score for the other machines were 7500.

Also you wouldn’t need any collusion between the slot techs and marketing. You tell them what to do and document the machine number. Machine numbers are assigned well in advance of the tournament.
AxelWolf
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June 17th, 2018 at 2:10:37 PM permalink
Quote: casinoking000

Yes, and I did notice crazy scores and I documented it the last time I played.

The same machine posted a 17000, 15000 and 12000 score in three seperate rounds while the average score for the other machines were 7500.

I would discreetly be taking pictures, not that that's needed since scores are documented and bring it up with NGC.


Feel free to post up the times, dates, machine numbers, exact scores, and locations.

I don't know if its illegal for them to do this but it would be really bad for their reputation if proven to be true. If they are rigging the tournaments getting the word out might get them to stop in fear of unknown consequences and bad publicity.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
casinoking000
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June 17th, 2018 at 2:27:55 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I would discreetly be taking pictures, not that that's needed since scores are documented and bring it up with NGC.


Feel free to post up the times, dates, machine numbers, exact scores, and locations.

I don't know if its illegal for them to do this but it would be really bad for their reputation if proven to be true. If they are rigging the tournaments getting the word out might get them to stop in fear of unknown consequences and bad publicity.



Thanks.

Yea, I don’t think the NGC would do anything since the prizes are freeplay which technically have no cash value. Obviously if word got out and it turned out they were doing this they would probably stop but who knows.
AxelWolf
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June 17th, 2018 at 5:15:23 PM permalink
Quote: casinoking000

Thanks.

Yea, I don’t think the NGC would do anything since the prizes are freeplay which technically have no cash value. Obviously if word got out and it turned out they were doing this they would probably stop but who knows.



I DO think they would do somthing. They have fined casinos for cheating during drawings before.
They don't want casinos doing anything that can tarnish Nevada gambling and its reputation for being fair.

I wouldn't doubt if there's somthing veg in the gaming rules they could use regarding integrity.

If what you are saying is accurate regarding the super high scores and you could show that to them and explain your thinking, I think they would do an investigation. What harm can come by reporting it to NGC? If the casino gets a simple call from NGC regarding this, that might put a stop to it
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
GlenG
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June 17th, 2018 at 5:33:49 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

And silently everyone one day will agree with the king about the cheating that is going on today surrounding blackjack. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out why preshuffled cards are being used. They literally save no time whatsoever, if any by using them and they STILL throw them in the ASM to shuffle LOL. All it does is kill any transparency from casino to patron.

More and more stories of blackjack cheating will continue to surface as time goes on sadly. And guess what? Like I said again, NOTHING ever happens to them. So the counter argument about casinos having too much to lose to risk cheating is completely ludicrous. You can bet there is vast amounts of cheating going in this mob ridden town. Bellagio, Caesars, and Planet Hollywood are the top 3 rigged ones and coincidentally are located smack dab in the middle of the vegas strip. Hmmm. Just a matter of time until the truth eventually comes out and the result will be a slap on the wrist.



So what about hand shuffled games?
onenickelmiracle
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June 17th, 2018 at 6:13:32 PM permalink
Do they weight the tournaments in any way already, like giving two entries to some people? I personally tend to be suspicious of some things, but am not with slot tournaments at all. Could have said what has already been said, but it all felt too obvious and simple in the first place. A lot of luck is involved with slot tournaments, not worth weighting unfairly at all. Perhaps if someone were to be interested, they could ask the casino to include in the rules the obvious facts about each machine in the tournament having the same settings, etc. Maybe this should be in the official rules, don't know, maybe they are, don't think they're published usually, must ask for them.
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casinoking000
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June 17th, 2018 at 8:39:08 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Do they weight the tournaments in any way already, like giving two entries to some people? I personally tend to be suspicious of some things, but am not with slot tournaments at all. Could have said what has already been said, but it all felt too obvious and simple in the first place. A lot of luck is involved with slot tournaments, not worth weighting unfairly at all. Perhaps if someone were to be interested, they could ask the casino to include in the rules the obvious facts about each machine in the tournament having the same settings, etc. Maybe this should be in the official rules, don't know, maybe they are, don't think they're published usually, must ask for them.



They don’t weigh them at all. One entry per person. I requested the rules the last time the only specifics regarding the machine is that it is set to allow for ten minutes of play.

I want to be perfectly clear that I have no solid proof of anything. However the potential to rig a tournament is certainly possible based on the criteria I have outlined in this thread.

A simple solution is to allow participants to choose their machine.
onenickelmiracle
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June 17th, 2018 at 8:50:29 PM permalink
Quote: casinoking000

They don’t weigh them at all. One entry per person. I requested the rules the last time the only specifics regarding the machine is that it is set to allow for ten minutes of play.

I want to be perfectly clear that I have no solid proof of anything. However the potential to rig a tournament is certainly possible based on the criteria I have outlined in this thread.

A simple solution is to allow participants to choose their machine.

Just coincidence, not too unlikely to be on the same machine, especially for more than one round being considered. It's a big red flag you're saying this, it means your understanding of probablities isn't very good and you place too much emphasise on your feelings and your fears. I'm not much better at it than you, don't be insulted.
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casinoking000
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June 17th, 2018 at 8:54:00 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Just coincidence, not too unlikely to be on the same machine, especially for more than one round being considered. It's a big red flag you're saying this, it means your understanding of probablities isn't very good and you place too much emphasise on your feelings and your fears. I'm not much better at it than you, don't be insulted.



Which explains why I play slot machines lol!
RS
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June 17th, 2018 at 9:08:56 PM permalink
Quote: GlenG

So what about hand shuffled games?


I worked with a complete moron who said he had a “special shuffle” he’d use to destroy a player. But he’d only do it sparingly, so he wouldn’t get in trouble or the player wouldn’t catch on. Kind of like a closer in baseball. Yeah sure, whatever, guy. I don’t remember his special shuffle or the house shuffle, but it was basically something like adding in an extra riffle + strip instead of a strip + shuffle.

The guy was about as clueless as you could imagine about anything gambling related. “Card counting is cheating and illegal”, “flow of the cards”, or other nonsense people believe. He’s gonna be one of those pit bosses that fires a dealer because he gave out too much money or praise a dealer for beating a big player out of a lot really quickly.
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