shockingly "tight" tribal slots

I asked a slot tech I was chatting with at a tribal casino in Oregon what their slots payout percentage was, and the tech floored me with the answer: "82%."

That's about ten percentage points or so below the Las Vegas average and below the pay out on the Oregon state video / lottery slots found in taverns.

Jesus wept, as did the patrons of the casino.

Yet there were people playing.

Yes, blithely unaware of the Herculean obstacle in front of them.

Wow, "hope springs eternal," I suppose.

82% though is just beyond obscene, and way, way too greedy.

Not sure but I believe the Pennsylvania slots are even worse. I asked a pit manager why and he said it’s due to the tax rate on casinos in that state

Doesn't surprise me. Most tribal casinos have terrible games and odds. At least in my experience.

When there is no "authority" to contact, there is not much use in giving into rumors or guesses.

Some tribes have some 'rubber stamp' authority, some tribes just say 'mind your own business, paleface'.

The best thing is to remember that slot machine manufacturers really have only TWO markets. One is the State of Nevada, the other market is Anywhere Else.

ALL machines are designed for Nevada. Chip are designed and tested for Nevada.

Paperwork requirements in Nevada are strict. Not so in other jurisdictions. However no one is going to develop a separate chip. The lowest one that Nevada allows is the 'floor' for other jurisdictions.

Look into the used machine market. Ship something out of Nevada and install it in London, it will need "Localization" such as signage changes and sound alterations to make sure nothing approximates the sound of a 'Bobby's Whistle', a legally defined sound pattern that can not be duplicated by any device in the UK. However, no one will create a chip .. the choice if from the existing chips which will be sent with the machines.

In Vegas, competition forces payouts to be rather high and well over the state minimum settings.
In other areas, local conditions apply. In some areas laws are complex. A slot machine in Northern Ireland is subject to two different sets of UK laws.

If you look at the ads for used slots and shipping manifests you will see that usually the machine and the entire range of chipsets are sent and the new owner of the slot machine will make whatever choice he chooses to make in his jurisdiction.

Slot technician training is a grown industry in the US and perhaps abroad also. Yet no slot tech, even when sloshed to the gills, is going to be a reliable source of information.

Quote: michael99000

Not sure but I believe the Pennsylvania slots are even worse. I asked a pit manager why and he said it’s due to the tax rate on casinos in that state

Pennsylvania law is 85% minimum

Quote: FleaStiff

Yet no slot tech, even when sloshed to the gills, is going to be a reliable source of information.

Why do you say that?

One would suspect the tech had access to the underlying data and knew the payout percentage.

I wouldn't. There are an awful lot of former slot techs out there. If they all knew, it wouldn't be a secret.

If they're really all 82%, seems the casino would be quite full of people constantly complaining. I don't see how they wouldn't be miserable most of the time being there only because it's close and convenient.

Maybe it was my imagination but I think I've seen actual percentages in the software sometimes when they are working on them. Showed what the game was set at.

BTW, I'm almost positive Tribal casinos have much better paybacks on some machines, just that they are mixed in with a lot of machines which have terrible returns.

But that's the lure.

Quote: MrV

I asked a slot tech I was chatting with at a tribal casino in Oregon what their slots payout percentage was, and the tech floored me with the answer: "82%."

I suspect he may have been in error. The slots I have looked at have a minimum return of 85%. I wonder if the 82% may have been after deducting for expenses.

Also, I would submit that even if you had a monopoly, it would be bad business to set your slots that tight. You will lose the locals if they feel they can't win and their money doesn't last long. I think the optimal return for a casino with a monopoly, given the goal of maximizing revenue, where most players are locals, is in the high 80's to low 90's.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

If they're really all 82%, seems the casino would be quite full of people constantly complaining.

That reminds me of the quote "That place is always so busy that no one goes there anymore".

If they are really averaging 82% i would suspect the place would be empty because everybody is broke. I believe they have machines set at 82%, but not the average.

Quote: Wizard

I think the optimal return for a casino with a monopoly, given the goal of maximizing revenue, where most players are locals, is in the high 80's to low 90's.

A lot of the local casinos I work with average their slots around 92%.

Quote: DRich

A lot of the local casinos I work with average their slots around 92%.

I believe it.

91.4% is posted on the door on my closest Iowan casino (where the casino average must be posted by state law). That includes all machine-based games, including VP. 80% is the minimum for slots here in MN. I have no reliable info about where the slots are set, but most VP is 94-96% against a 98% return cap (not counting progressive returns).

Interestingly, BJ rules are decent and carnival game paytables are better than average in MN. So it's pretty much just the machines that are brutally bad.

The Connecticut Tribal Casinos: Slot Data report shows both Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun consistently paying at about 92% over the years. Since the tribal casinos pay 25% of the hold to the state, the state monitors and reports on the slot activity.

Quote: MrV

I asked a slot tech I was chatting with at a tribal casino in Oregon what their slots payout percentage was, and the tech floored me with the answer: "82%."

That's about ten percentage points or so below the Las Vegas average and below the pay out on the Oregon state video / lottery slots found in taverns.

Jesus wept, as did the patrons of the casino.

In my experience, tribal slot machine 1c are usually between 87-93%. Tendency is for the tribal casinos with the highest revenues to have the loosest setting (don't know the cause/effect or correlation). Most CA tribal casinos set 1c to 88-89%. Tachi (Fresno) seems to be one of the tightest CA tribal casinos - possibly 87% or even 86%.

Harrahs seems to be the worst. Seen lots of 85% 1c... Lower than any tribal casino I know.

At a tribal casino in 2012, I once was thinking about playing a new slot just for fun. Then one day I saw the 82.xx% setting. ugh.

Many of the new speciality theme games seem to have 84-86% settings, and higher ones may not exist.
Space Invaders only had two possible settings (may have changed with later software revisions), and both were sub-89%.

-----
Vegas downtown: Very tight these days. I saw Four Queens setting on the new Jurassic World 1c (when they were installing it in January) - 86.09%

Vegas strip: Saw Ainsworth $1 progressive 90.31% at Cosmopolitan. Lowest Ainsworth $1 I've personally seen (heard East Coast has some 89%, possibly some 88%).

82 percent seems about right because on tribal lands casinos are in the middle of nowhere, so it's not like you can just take a 15 minute drive to the next casino to play if you are no longer feeling the first casino. For example, Gulfstream Park Casino and Mardi Gras Casino are like a 15 minute drive at most so if you are not feeling one of them it is a short drive to the other casino. On the other hand, tribal land casino, Miccousoukee Resort is on a tribal land far away from Gulfstream Park Casino and Mardi Gras Casino. The Broward Bus doesn't even go anywhere near Miccousoukee Casino. A special Miccousoukee bus cost roughly $26 and will pick you up from Miami International Airport but I heard you have to already have a hotel reservation for Miccousoukee for the special bus even to pick you up. Free play is $25 for the first time guests, so I figured I would only lose $1 if I took the special bus. Didn't take into consideration the fact that I would also need the special bus to take me back to the airport, so I would actually spend $52 on just bus rides, so I would actually lose $27 and that's if I get $25 free play converted to $25 cash. In the realistic situation, I'd probably get more like $15 in cash, so I am actually about $37 down. If I take a LYFT, I will pay roughly $60 altogether, so I will be down roughly $45 by going the LYFT route. A Taxi costs roughly $180 altogether, so I will be down $165 going the Taxi route. Okay I went off on a bit of a rambling tangent there, but the point is tribal land that knows they can only be reached by car, special bus, taxi\LYFT, Uber, or car and there are no nearby casinos can afford to put a 82 percentage payout due to their captive audience.

Unless there is some sort of mandatory reporting and oversight scheme, no data from a tribal casino can be considered valid. Competion of forces the settings. The used slot machine market indicates that such machines are often sold with an entire set of
chips (usually five) that will allow the casino to swap chip sets at any time.

Geography always plays a role: just a cruise ship can tell you to go swim to another casino, a tribal casino can send you elsewhere and it may be quite a trek for you to get there.

In Vegas a Nevada statute applies but even the Strip's machines are set much higher than the statute requires due to the completion from other casinos and some chatty slot technician might have been referring to the statutory minimum rather than the actual settings.